Current drivers: weaknesses

Reasoning is related to general theory of sportsmen losing some of their performance as they age. As we see, sometimes Schumacher is still great, but only sometimes. This means he still has the skills, but doesn't have the power to execute them that efficiently any more. I have noticed older sportsmen find it especially difficult to be metronomically consistent at the highest level, so they start choosing events and can be on top of their game only sometimes. Hence I used the word 'stamina' across a whole season. Maybe something else/some other word can be used.

You probably meant consistency - I don't see anything wrong with his fitness, he's still one of the fittest guys out there. Even so, I don't think that's a fair conclusion: he would've had a colossal amount of points than he does now, had lady-luck gone his way.

Vettel - Racecraft

I think that's more fair. Kimi also lacks raw speed. Alonso? Weakness? Have you seen any? Wow. Personally I believe Massa is a really good qualifier to be honest so I'm not too surprised he is only a couple of tenths away sometimes. Remember how Massa beat Kimi and Michael lots of times in qualifying compared to expectations? But yeah I'm sure Alonso lacks the final tenth that maybe Hamilton has.

I wouldn't say racecraft for Vettel
Vettel's racecraft is quite good both in overtaking (outside of Rosberg in 0z) and on the fly strategy decisions to move himself up the field.
His problems with overtaking I'd put down to Red Bull's low topspeed, I would say he seems more uncomfortable in those situations than other drivers.

Some people have such a short memory, so they forget that from 2003-2009 you can't compare qualifying performances, because of different fuel loads.



Also, I didn't know that there are some points given for qualifying position. Besides it's funny to see that endless comparisions from 6 years ago, even though no cares for them today.

I think that's more fair. Kimi also lacks raw speed. Alonso? Weakness? Have you seen any? Wow. Personally I believe Massa is a really good qualifier to be honest so I'm not too surprised he is only a couple of tenths away sometimes. Remember how Massa beat Kimi and Michael lots of times in qualifying compared to expectations? But yeah I'm sure Alonso lacks the final tenth that maybe Hamilton has.

Yup, Alonso is a perfect driver. Doesn't make any mistakes, never lost to a rookie, always wins with the best car and sometimes with a bad car. Everytime he was fighting for a title, he never lost. Raikkonen is poor in comparision with him. He lost to Massa, who is now losing to Alonso, even in qualifying where he is rather good. Alonso is such a perfect driver. Some forum members even have avatars with him, to prove that they are completly objective, when they judge Alonso's performance.

Edited by Buttoneer, 03 August 2012 - 21:04.

Vettel's racecraft is quite good both in overtaking (outside of Rosberg in 0z) and on the fly strategy decisions to move himself up the field.

I thought his overtake around the outside of Alonso at Monza, shot down any questions of "racecraft".

His problems with overtaking I'd put down to Red Bull's low topspeed, I would say he seems more uncomfortable in those situations than other drivers.

I agree, Red Bull optimise for speed throughout the corners, than for the straights.

One example of overtaking does not shoot down all questions of a lack of racecraft, that's just tub thumping

Rosberg seems to have a weakness regarding his ability to make anyone's abridged lists. Poor lil' guy, he just doesn't seem to be on anyone's radar.

Rosberg - the new Heidfeld?

One example of overtaking does not shoot down all questions of a lack of racecraft, that's just tub thumping

One example, sets a precedent. Vettel didn't look to shabby with his overtaking manoeuvres in Spain this year, did he?

Does this Massa vs Alonso thing need to be posted in every single thread?

He beat Michael, "lots of times". When? Where's your evidence for that? There's no point making a claim with no figures.

Bahrain- Schumacher
Malaysia - Schumacher
Australia - Schumacher
San Marino - Schumacher
Europe - Schumacher
Spain - Schumacher
Monaco - Schumacher (he was evidently quicker before he was relegated to the back - Massa didn't set a time I believe)
Britain - Schumacher
Canada - Schumacher
USA - Schumacher
France - Schumacher
Germany - Schumacher
Hungary - Massa
Turkey - Massa
Italy - Schumacher
China - Schumacher
Japan - Massa
Brazil - Massa (IIRC Schumacher had a fuel-pump failure during qualifying)

So overall, Massa qualified infront 4 times vs. 14

"Lots of times"?

well done, put him in to place. It is annoying when some people hear "something" from some one else, immediately jump on the bandwagon without checking their "facts", damn sheep.

well done, put him in to place. It is annoying when some people hear "something" from some one else, immediately jump on the bandwagon without checking their "facts", damn sheep.

Someone had to!

every driver should be evaluated on a scale of 10 for the following items

1-one lap pace
2-race pace
3-racecraft
4-risk management
5-adaptability
6-consistency
7-defense moves
8-attack moves

webber drives me crazy when i hear his interview before a weekend in somewhat boring track and he says that this track is boring , i know immediately that he will be **** in this race

Rosberg - the new Heidfeld?

Rosberg won a race, so no.

every driver should be evaluated on a scale of 10 for the following items

1-one lap pace
2-race pace
3-racecraft
4-risk management
5-adaptability
6-consistency
7-defense moves
8-attack moves

These would be quite alright as a list of primary skills for an F1 manager type of game with Football manager series type of points system.

Alonso's only weakness is Russian models!

Seriously speaking now: Alonso's weakness is that he totally loses his cool when things don't go his way.

"I don't wanna know!!"
"Please no more radio!!"
"this is ridiculous!! "

Webber - Tilke tracks, he is yet to win a race at one of them.

Alonso's only weakness is Russian models!

Seriously speaking now: Alonso's weakness is that he totally loses his cool when things don't go his way.

"I don't wanna know!!"
"Please no more radio!!"
"this is ridiculous!! "

"I give up!".

"I give up!".

Singapore 2008 is very disturbing to me. still only has 29 wins in my book.

Edited by MP422, 03 August 2012 - 20:56.

Singapore 2008 is very disturbing to me. still only has 29 wins in my book.

Kinda lost here, I wasn't referring to Singapore '08, rather Korea 2011 .

But yeah, I agree.

Kinda lost here, I wasn't referring to Singapore '08, rather Korea 2011 .

But yeah, I agree.

Weren't we talking about why alonso isn't perfect ?

Weren't we talking about why alonso isn't perfect ?

I'd thought we were talking about a driver's ability, rather than their history of 'scandals' .

One example of overtaking does not shoot down all questions of a lack of racecraft, that's just tub thumping

Hardly one example though is it?

I wouldn't say racecraft for Vettel
Vettel's racecraft is quite good both in overtaking (outside of Rosberg in 0z) and on the fly strategy decisions to move himself up the field.
His problems with overtaking I'd put down to Red Bull's low topspeed, I would say he seems more uncomfortable in those situations than other drivers.

I sometimes think of him being a 'Plan A' type of person. I don't want to say he has no plan B but Plan A has been so successful for him over the last 2 years but apart from Monaco 2011 where he made the call, i struggle to recall him thinking out of the box and changing his race for the better with an inspired call or good tactics, like Kimi saving his tyres in Hungary middle stint.

And of course, he can be hot headed at times which can lead to driving errors (he looked very anxious to win in Germany say) but I'd rather someone who wears his heart on his sleeve than someone who lets it pass them by.

Hardly one example though is it?

Well he said the example of vettel going on the grass around curve grande shot down all arguments that vettel had no race craft. So yes, one example

Alonso: A new eyebrow trimmer to get that extra tenth to be able to be a Ferrari WDC finally

Massa: A team who doesn't say: Fernando is faster than you without telling the reason, that Fernando has higher revs than you

Webber: Make Red Bull drinks more popular in Australia

Vettel: Focus on beeing a better overtaker instead of trying to be Milton Berle (for erlderly readers)

Hamilton: Kiss Jay-Z ass and get a contract and then focus on your day job

Button: Marry that girl who seems to accept your whinging and then focus on iron man

Raikkonen: Drink a Red Bull drink before the race instead of before the last stint

Grosjean: Get a lip coach who teaches you how to get your lips together. Put your upper lip together with your under lip and voila. Now repeat after me with a closed mouth!

Rosberg: None, looks to pretty to have any weaknesses

Schumacher: The most successful F1 driver ever? Ok, I'll let this one pass, King Schue, but shouldn't you be in Bahrain or somewhere and open up a new building instead of crashing F1 cars?

Perez: Persuade Maldonado to retire or snatch away his sponsor

Kobayashi: Get a trademark on the name Kamikaze, sorry, Kobayashi

Maldonado: Get the Venzuelan goverment in to the FIA ruling board or get a weekend lecture from Alonso how to use blackmailing successfully

Senna: Senna oh Senna, your such an easy target but since you did wonderfully in Hungary I'll wait for one more race before I say that you're probably 2 seconds slower than Bottas

Di Resta: No weaknesses with all the British journalists in the business. If you necessarily have to find one, the awful Dialect, who understands that?

Hulkenberg: The best talent in F1 since Räikkonen who may be driving DTM next year because of Team managers persuadiing drivers not to have a manager

Vergne: Weaknessnes? I hope better management than Buemi and Alguesssssssarriiii, or whatever his name was. Maybe some Spanish fans remember him but I'm already forgetting

Ricciardo: Helmut Marko has said that he likes his smile so any weknesses are out the window. RBR in 2014 to replace Finger boy?

Kovalainen: Heikki: Lewis gets preferential treatment. Martin: Heikki, your a Fin in a Brit team, do you understand. Heikki: Ok Martin, I understand.

Petrov: - I will comeback and fight for the title! Ok, Vitaly we believe you!

Glock:- I could've been a contender. We understand Glock that your favourite movie is the Raging Bull

Pic: 10 out of 10 in Autosports Hungary rating. That should put you in the running for the 2nd Ferrari seat? Your weakness is though that the rating was to good foor Alonso to give you the go ahead

de la Rosa: Well, I'm impressed by your comeback but to me it only says that Karthikeyan is crap

Karthikeyan: See above

Edited by Lone, 03 August 2012 - 21:50.

On the plus side, I still count some of vettel's onboard camera videos of his pole laps last season as some of the most exciting I've seen in formula 1. He was like an x-wing pilot at the end of a new hope

Well he said the example of vettel going on the grass around curve grande shot down all arguments that vettel had no race craft. So yes, one example

Sorry I thought you were responding to me.

I sometimes think of him being a 'Plan A' type of person. I don't want to say he has no plan B but Plan A has been so successful for him over the last 2 years but apart from Monaco 2011 where he made the call, i struggle to recall him thinking out of the box and changing his race for the better with an inspired call or good tactics, like Kimi saving his tyres in Hungary middle stint.

And of course, he can be hot headed at times which can lead to driving errors (he looked very anxious to win in Germany say) but I'd rather someone who wears his heart on his sleeve than someone who lets it pass them by.

Monaco 2011? Staying out on the Softs.

Are we having this conversation?

Alonso - Raw Speed
Kimi - Motivation
Lewis - Mental Toughness
Vettel - Finger
Webber - Bogey tracks
Button - Balance

Are you serious, bro? If Alonso lacks raw speed than so do about 22 drivers on the grid.

Edited by Kingshark, 03 August 2012 - 22:04.

Well, it's true he didn't stay in F1, but he kept on racing in another top-level motorsport so he, basically, kept doing the same thing but with a different type of car. Not everybody in motorsport thinks F1 is the only place to be, and he's Finnish. If the problem was motivation, he could have stayed at home looking the grass grow.
As people always say, a driver with motivation problems doesn't get fuel in the eyes, gets barbequed and keeps on driving to finish the race (Brazil 2009)

Anyway, it's easy to come to the "lack of motivation" conclusion when you are used to hear a lot of people in the F1 world hitting themselves in the breast and saying how good they are, how much they work and how they took things out of the car that nobody else would have. It's a bit like in real-life, at work, there are always people who work a lot and don't say a word and people who tell everybody they work a lot and it's easy to end up thinking that the one who's not talking is not working.

Maybe, more than motivation, his weakness could be that he doesn't sell (or knows how to sell) what he does?

Alonso - if there is a questionmark I think it can be from within Ferrari. Alonso is so devoted to Ferrari that it is like a love affair and if a situation arises where he feels that Ferrari isn't supporting him enough it might get into his head. Not saying it will just a questionmark. If Ferrari decides it's time to bring in another fast driver and there is competition Alonso might feel that he has been giving so much and now this and so on. Even if he has improved since 2007 and probably could handle it.

Edited by FenderJaguar, 03 August 2012 - 22:17.

Alonso's only weakness is Russian models!

Seriously speaking now: Alonso's weakness is that he totally loses his cool when things don't go his way.

"I don't wanna know!!"
"Please no more radio!!"
"this is ridiculous!! "

And once again, pay attention to what he does on track. In neither of those cases did his words translate to driving errors, loss of speed or fighting spirit. Until that happens, his radio conversations are merely funny, but ultimately irrelevant sidenotes.

You can watch an example of something similar in the brilliant BBC documentation "A season with McLaren" which covers 1993. In one episode, at Adelaide during qualifying, Senna's radio button gets stuck and he shouts at the pits in a very agitated way for whole lap. While setting fastest lap and getting pole at the same time.

As the saying goes in Germany, from our most famous poet: "Worte sind Schall und Rauch" (words are but noise and smoke).

Raikkonen: adaptability, needs the right car/steering

This is what I had thought pre-season, which made me suggest Grosjean could (he still could) beat Kimi over the season. However, he has had limited troubles adapting to Pirellis despite being a year behind on them. He had a tyre disaster in China (likewise Monaco but that was due to a lack of running) but he was a hero on them in Hungary and made Grosjean look like the rookie (that he is).

Kimi stated that he is simply used to superior steering feedback from his Ferrari days, so why shouldn't he seek to replicate that? He is certainly not looking like Trulli did last year, who was totally lost.

Whoever says motivation for Kimi should stop watching F1 immediately.

Edited by Disgrace, 04 August 2012 - 00:15.

This is what I had thought pre-season, which made me suggest Grosjean could (he still could) beat Kimi over the season. However, he has had limited troubles adapting to Pirellis despite being a year behind on them. He had a tyre disaster in China (likewise Monaco but that was due to a lack of running) but he was a hero on them in Hungary and made Grosjean look like the rookie (that he is).

Kimi stated that he is simply used to superior steering feedback from his Ferrari days, so why shouldn't he seek to replicate that? He is certainly not looking like Trulli did last year, who was totally lost.

Whoever says motivation for Kimi should stop watching F1 immediately.

Agree about the motivation:

In regards to the right steering I listed it as a weakness because of examples like Monaco where he showed a general unwillingness to drive around the problem, missed the only practice session that day, and than had a general mare of a race. When something like that can have such a detrimental impact on a race, I think it has to be included as a weakness. I also listed adaptability because its quite clear (like the first half of 2009, latter stages of 2008) that he needs specifics like the suspension to be exactly right, and when it is he can pull out Spa 09 performances, however when it isn't his performance suffers.

Alonso
His inability to handle an outperforming teammate.

Massa
Doesn't stand up for himself, he is too willing to to play second fiddle.

Hamilton
His short-sighted temper.

Vettel
He's a sore loser. Sorry, he can't handle it when he's not up at front.

Raikkonen
Whether he's on form or not is entirely reliant on his motivation.

Webber
He's either great or he's nowhere.

Button
He can't adapt to more difficult situations.

Schumacher
His qualifying is still poor.

Rosberg
He's not fast in the rain.

Grosjean
His constant rookie errors.

Perez
He lacks wheel to wheel racing ability.

Kobayashi
He's too inconsistent.

Maldonado
FAR too crash prone.

Senna
On many occasions, he's just not fast enough.

Edited by Kingshark, 04 August 2012 - 00:53.

Schumacher
His qualifying is still poor.

Australia - P4
Malaysia - P3
China - P2
Bahrain - P18 (DRS failure)
Spain - P8 (no time set in Q3)
Monaco - P1
Valencia - P12
Britain - P3
Germany - P4
Hungary - P17

So, twice he failed to make it into Q3 with no technical faults (Valencia his own fault, Hungary the car was a complete dog).

When he has made it into Q3 and set a time, his average is: 2.83 = 3. Not bad for an 'old timer'!

Edited by rossbrawn, 04 August 2012 - 01:11.

Does this Massa vs Alonso thing need to be posted in every single thread?

He beat Michael, "lots of times". When? Where's your evidence for that? There's no point making a claim with no figures.

Bahrain- Schumacher
Malaysia - Schumacher
Australia - Schumacher
San Marino - Schumacher
Europe - Schumacher
Spain - Schumacher
Monaco - Schumacher (he was evidently quicker before he was relegated to the back - Massa didn't set a time I believe)
Britain - Schumacher
Canada - Schumacher
USA - Schumacher
France - Schumacher
Germany - Schumacher
Hungary - Massa
Turkey - Massa
Italy - Schumacher
China - Schumacher
Japan - Massa
Brazil - Massa (IIRC Schumacher had a fuel-pump failure during qualifying)

So overall, Massa qualified infront 4 times vs. 14

"Lots of times"?

Not only that, Schumacher was a whopping 0.8 sec quicker than Massa in Q2 so he went for a heavier fuel load in Q3 but made a mistake in T1 and ended up 2nd. Massa didn't beat him on merit. He wasn't faster than Schumacher at all that race. And you're right about Brazil, Schumacher was out in Q2 with a car problem. So Massa beat Schumi all of 2 times that season.

Alonso - Raw Speed
Kimi - Motivation
Lewis - Mental Toughness
Vettel - Finger
Webber - Bogey tracks
Button - Balance


thats about it ...

This is curious. Many people in this thread say Alonso isn't the fastest and blah blah blah

He was no worse than Hamilton in 2007, qualilfying speed-wise

Not only that, Schumacher was a whopping 0.8 sec quicker than Massa in Q2 so he went for a heavier fuel load in Q3 but made a mistake in T1 and ended up 2nd. Massa didn't beat him on merit. He wasn't faster than Schumacher at all that race. And you're right about Brazil, Schumacher was out in Q2 with a car problem. So Massa beat Schumi all of 2 times that season.

This happened in Suzuka and Istanbul. Schumacher was too much faster than Massa in Q2 so that Ferrari put Felipe with less fuel on Q3 in order to be right there with him. In Brazil and Hungary, MSC also had better Q2 but we all know the circunstances there.

All in all, I don't think Massa was ever quicker than MSC in any of 2006 qualifyings. Not that it relates to the topic, btw, sorry.

Edited by BetaVersion, 04 August 2012 - 03:53.

Alonso: can't deal with a competitive team mate (more than that, sometimes he does not bring his A game when under championship pressure)

Webber: Not consistently fast over all circuits (and starts 90% of the time)

Vettel, Not being in the lead/competitive team mate (and requires constant hand holding by management)

Hamilton: Doesn't play the long game (inconsistent, could never set up long runs of world beating brilliance like his peers - has he ever won more than 2 races in a row?)

Raikkonen: adaptability, needs the right car/steering (he adapted well this year, I would lean more to patchy motivation)

Rosberg: Doesn't excel in any area, seems to be lacking just a little bit in every department.

Button: can't adapt to an unbalanced car and poor over a single lap

Grosjean: lacks consistent race pace, and has too many first lap incidents

Perez: wheel to wheel racing, and consistency (in other words, youth)

Kobayashi: Japanese: doesn't get the credit and attention he deserves, consistency

Maldonado: Brain fades in wheel to wheel situations (more like complete absence of knowledge of how to pass)

Michael Schumacher: His age, which has led to a general decline of his ability (would have said one lap pace, but he has brought that up to his other areas, which are all equally lacking)

Di Resta: Doesn't stand out in any area.

Massa: Mental fortitude, wet conditions (and overall pace)

Senna: one lap pace

Hulkenberg: Consistency, although he is getting better

Vergne: one lap pace (wheel to wheel racing also)

Ricciardo: consistency with race pace (starts)

It's hard to judge the drivers in the second tier cars.

Agree mostly.

Edited by Jimisgod, 04 August 2012 - 04:25.

Vergne certainly doesn't lack wheel to wheel racing. How can you judge the kid when he barely has any TV time? Anyone who watches racing outside of F1 will realize that Vergne is a brilliant wheel on wheel racer.

Vettel, my hero.

Finger: well, most of us have one, but use it differently, as not all of us stand on podium as often as he does
Interviews: could keep it shorter
Strength: many, but not here, and not now

Agree about the motivation:

In regards to the right steering I listed it as a weakness because of examples like Monaco where he showed a general unwillingness to drive around the problem, missed the only practice session that day, and than had a general mare of a race. When something like that can have such a detrimental impact on a race, I think it has to be included as a weakness. I also listed adaptability because its quite clear (like the first half of 2009, latter stages of 2008) that he needs specifics like the suspension to be exactly right, and when it is he can pull out Spa 09 performances, however when it isn't his performance suffers.

ISTR he had some sort of front suspension problems in monaco, the wheels didn't turn in the same angle when steering, which made the car impossible to drive.

Weaknesses

Rosberg: lack of agression
Petrov/Glock/Kovalainen: lack of competitive machinery - unable to assess actual weaknesses
Schumacher: mediocre risk assessment, unsure of cause
Alonso: willingness to resort to forbidden behavior in pursuit of the F1 crown.
Webber: ontrack impatience (improving) and quick temper
Raikkonen: off track impatience (improving) and mediocre people skills
Vettel: Desire to drive for Ferrari (improving); too much faith in top drivers on track (improving)
Grosjean: poor risk assessment (improving)
Maldonado: quick temper and temper induced poor risk assessment and purposeful crashes
Hamilton: mediocre risk assessment sparked by overconfidence
Perez/Kobayashi: mediocre risk assessment sparked by sophomore/junior years driving
Button: poor qualifying
Massa: massively subjugated - actual driving weaknesses unknown
DiResta/Hulkenberg: hard to gauge due to inconsistent machinery

Since when is the Force India inconsistent machinery? Jesus H Christ?

[insert driver name here] weakness: Internet.

Some of the comments here make me wonder if anyone actually WATCHES Mark race...

If I had to point out a weakness, it'd be that he doesn't like the boring Tilke-dromes and goes better at the classic tracks (except Monza for some weird reason). I mean, who can blame him, really, but it does need sorting.

For all the bozos wailing about his starts, please tell me how many places Mark has lost off the line since Monaco this year...funny how as soon as RB fixed the mechanism...kapow!

Weaknesses

Rosberg: lack of agression
Petrov/Glock/Kovalainen: lack of competitive machinery - unable to assess actual weaknesses
Schumacher: mediocre risk assessment, unsure of cause
Alonso: willingness to resort to forbidden behavior in pursuit of the F1 crown.
Webber: ontrack impatience (improving) and quick temper
Raikkonen: off track impatience (improving) and mediocre people skills
Vettel: Desire to drive for Ferrari (improving); too much faith in top drivers on track (improving)
Grosjean: poor risk assessment (improving)
Maldonado: quick temper and temper induced poor risk assessment and purposeful crashes
Hamilton: mediocre risk assessment sparked by overconfidence
Perez/Kobayashi: mediocre risk assessment sparked by sophomore/junior years driving
Button: poor qualifying
Massa: massively subjugated - actual driving weaknesses unknown
DiResta/Hulkenberg: hard to gauge due to inconsistent machinery

I loved your assessment of Vettel. Sure you don't want to include: Spends to much time visiting sick kids in hospitals.

Some of the comments here make me wonder if anyone actually WATCHES Mark race...

If I had to point out a weakness, it'd be that he doesn't like the boring Tilke-dromes and goes better at the classic tracks (except Monza for some weird reason). I mean, who can blame him, really, but it does need sorting.

For all the bozos wailing about his starts, please tell me how many places Mark has lost off the line since Monaco this year...funny how as soon as RB fixed the mechanism...kapow!

He's Australian and you're Australian, the rest is circumstantial.

Edited by Slowinfastout, 04 August 2012 - 07:57.

If I had to point out a weakness, it'd be that he doesn't like the boring Tilke-dromes and goes better at the classic tracks (except Monza for some weird reason). I mean, who can blame him, really, but it does need sorting.

If it does affect his performances, it's a huge weakness.

Di Resta: If you necessarily have to find one, the awful Dialect, who understands that?

What's wrong with his dialect?

He's is one of the most eloquent drivers on the grid.

Mind you me being Scottish maybe helps.

I loved your assessment of Vettel. Sure you don't want to include: Spends to much time visiting sick kids in hospitals.

I recall that same poster somehow making it out that SV had a great weekend at Nurburgring 2011 as well. Sort of says all you need to know about where he/she is coming from.

Not only that, Schumacher was a whopping 0.8 sec quicker than Massa in Q2 so he went for a heavier fuel load in Q3 but made a mistake in T1 and ended up 2nd. Massa didn't beat him on merit. He wasn't faster than Schumacher at all that race. And you're right about Brazil, Schumacher was out in Q2 with a car problem. So Massa beat Schumi all of 2 times that season.

Yeah, Massa was nowhere near Schumacher's level. Not sure where that guy got that idea from - day dreaming perhaps .