Morton's Fork - Lotus 1-2 at Spa

Retain the positions. Grosjean is not that far behind Raikkonen in the championship, if he won then they'd potentially have two drivers with an outside chance at the championship. Plus I don't think Grosjean would actually do it if he was told to.

He's 40 points behind Kimi and 88 behind Alonso. He's effectively out of the championship. Its not a disgrace or anything, though. He's shown great performance and I think he'll get a shot at a title again in the future.

And why dont you think he'd move over if asked? The last thing he wants to do as a rookie is disobey orders and get on the team's bad side.

If some of the higher placed drivers had a bad day (and I think they'd have to to end up with a Lotus 1-2), then if Grosjean wins he'll have a chance. Plus he's shown more than enough pace to suggest that he could still outscore Raikkonen at the end of the season (I think he will actually).

From what I remember Grosjean was very unhappy indeed when the team asked him to move over in Bahrain, and that was only for second place. Therefore if a win was near, I don't think he'd move. Also, it seems that Grosjean is more determined than most to make the most of his time in F1, since he knows he was lucky to get a second shot. It might be the only time he will have a win within reach; therefore I think he would not move over.

If some of the higher placed drivers had a bad day (and I think they'd have to to end up with a Lotus 1-2), then if Grosjean wins he'll have a chance. Plus he's shown more than enough pace to suggest that he could still outscore Raikkonen at the end of the season (I think he will actually).

From what I remember Grosjean was very unhappy indeed when the team asked him to move over in Bahrain, and that was only for second place. Therefore if a win was near, I don't think he'd move. Also, it seems that Grosjean is more determined than most to make the most of his time in F1, since he knows he was lucky to get a second shot. It might be the only time he will have a win within reach; therefore I think he would not move over.

What would you do if Alonso is in 3rd place?

Then realistically Raikkonen's title hopes would be over too, so there would be no point swapping them.

If some of the higher placed drivers had a bad day (and I think they'd have to to end up with a Lotus 1-2), then if Grosjean wins he'll have a chance. Plus he's shown more than enough pace to suggest that he could still outscore Raikkonen at the end of the season (I think he will actually).

From what I remember Grosjean was very unhappy indeed when the team asked him to move over in Bahrain, and that was only for second place. Therefore if a win was near, I don't think he'd move. Also, it seems that Grosjean is more determined than most to make the most of his time in F1, since he knows he was lucky to get a second shot. It might be the only time he will have a win within reach; therefore I think he would not move over.

Are you serious? So if Alonso finishes on spa in 3rd place, he'll win the title?
Do I understand this correctly, if they swoop places Raikkonen would be 37 points behind Alonso with 8 races to go, and you would call that over?

Yes.

Edited by Seanspeed, 17 August 2012 - 16:02.

37 points behind with 8 races to go and its over for Kimi

BUT

88 points behind with 9 races to go and Grosjean still has a shot?



Anyways, yea, Lotus would be justified in asking Grosjean to move over. And while I dont believe he'd ignore the order, if he did, I'd lose a fair bit of respect for him.

37 points behind with 8 races to go and its over for Kimi

BUT

88 points behind with 9 races to go and Grosjean still has a shot?



Anyways, yea, Lotus would be justified in asking Grosjean to move over. And while I dont believe he'd ignore the order, if he did, I'd lose a fair bit of respect for him.

Quite clearly, he's speaking nonsense.

You don't know what you're talking about. Then again, you believe that Grosjean will outscore Räikkönen on the second half so it's not a surprise.

Raikkonen is very much in contention, not just mathematically. Grosjean is not.

I do know what I'm talking about. I also believe that Grosjean will outscore Raikkonen, because everything I have seen so far indicates to me that Grosjean is a better, faster driver. I also think Raikkonen is a vile person. Unless you have access to a crystal ball, you can't say I'm wrong about Grosjean outscoring him.

enlighten me on how romain outscored kimi when his race pace has often been trashed by Kimi ?? And it seems that kimi has pick up his qualifying performance too~

Edited by TFLB, 17 August 2012 - 17:34.

I don't think Grosjean has a realistic shot at the title either.

You don't know what you're talking about. Then again, you believe that Grosjean will outscore Räikkönen on the second half so it's not a surprise.

I also think Raikkonen is a vile person.

He hasn't outscored him yet. I think he will though. The gap in performance is not nearly as big as the points gap would suggest - Grosjean has lost many points due to unlucky incidents (not all were his fault) and was robbed of at least second place in Valencia. Raikkonen has been luckier. I can't remember one race where Grosjean was 'trashed' by Raikkonen, they've mostly been very close. Grosjean has also shown superior qualifying pace and tyre preservation more often than not.

But Kimi does. A very realistic one.

Thats really not relevant to the discussion in any way at all.

At least we can safely ignore your opinion on anything Raikkonen-related in the future, though.

I believe Romain wasnt on the same pace as kimi in bahrain, shanghai ( until the team screw up), hockeinham, hungary !! All these races kimi outraced romain by half a sec, im looking at the live timing as race progresses so im well aware!!

Kimi is luckier??? The team often pit him late and stuck him behind traffics, not to mention how many kers failure has it beens for kimi???? And differential failure for kimi in montreal during qualifying, despite that kimi still 1 tenth of the pace of qualifying!! Wrong steerings setup for kimi in monaco, wrong strategies, slow pit stops~~~

Romain wasted many points due to his mistakes~~

But that doesn't excuse team orders. Team orders should only be used if one driver is mathematically out of contention. At least, that's my opinion. If you think it does, then okay, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I fully admit that I can't stand Raikkonen, I think he's rude and arrogant and I hate his tattoos and drinking habits. However, my stance would be the same on team orders no matter who the drivers involved were.

Some people enjoy beautiful lies~~ I dont see any problem with his attitude!! He said it as it were, no bs, no pretentious, no decorations!! Any mistake from the team he nvr blame them and instead blame himself!!

And kimi doesnt need any team orders, unless the team take the initiative, kimi will just race fairly~~ and always finish in front of Romain!! No worries on that~~

In Bahrain they were close on pace, Raikkonen slightly faster but the gap exaggerated by Grosjean backing off to preserve his car and tyres after the final stops. In Shanghai Grosjean was right behind Raikkonen being held up almost all the race, and I don't know how many times this needs to be said: THERE WAS NO TEAM MISTAKE. The team said afterwards that the tyres could have done many more laps (evidenced by Grosjean, who did more laps on them than Kimi) and the ONLY problem was Raikkonen's mistake when he ran wide and picked up marbles.

Raikkonen is luckier in terms of first lap incidents and reliability. Plus several of his so-called reliability issues like KERS failures have been later disproved by the team.

The bolded bit is not really true.

oh really?? 9 out of 11~~ you do the probabilities!! And even without incidents, romain was outraced by kimi!! i can only see kimi keep improving, while romain remain grounded and slipped back~~

Sorry, who's the world champion who's ageing and won't improve and who's the rookie? Plus it's not really 9 out of 11 when you don't count the ones Grosjean didn't finish through no fault of his own.

(except the collision with Maldanado).

About this position swap.. Lotus have shown this year they wont be blindly supporting and wont be using dirty tactics to promote Kimi. I'd guess those kind of things only happens in a Red team

And the one where he was pushed into Schumacher by a Ferrari.

Grosjean is on exactly the same points as Button; both have no chance whatsoever of winning the championship. We are getting towards the sharp end of the season now and as Raikkonen is still in the title hunt Lotus should get him in front of Grosjean if the win is at stake (only the win, not for second, third or any other position).

As Raikkonen is only one point behind Hamilton and I argued just a couple of weeks ago that Button should let Hamilton past for the win in Hungary if required, it would be hypocritical to argue otherwise.

But it's not over until it's over is it? You never know what could happen.

Another thing for Lotus to consider is that telling Grosjean to give up a win would probably not do any wonders at all for his confidence, and that could cost them points in the constructor's championship later.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 17 August 2012 - 18:55.

You can't know, but betting that RG will not be WDC would be quite safe.

I don't think he will be world champion, of course not. But as long as there is still a mathematical chance, then no team orders should be applied. Same with Mclaren, RBR, etc.