Just in case you don't know ( unlikely) Dear Mr Hamilton was so miffed ( it seems) at Button out qualifying him at Spa that he tweeted the telemetry data of his and Button's cars showing how Button hasd a different set -up. Presumably he reckoned this would explain why Button went quicker than him.
Mclaren asked him to take it down as it was detailed set up data .
The best copy I can find is here
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/19474565
Being old, I didnt now you could tweet such a detailed graph but apparently it shows ride height plus braking and aceleration rates.
Can anybody actually decipher it ?
Does anybody have a clearer copy?
If its all been done in racing comments already I'm sorry but I don't go there often!
have we learnt anything from hamilton's tweet
Started by
mariner
, Sep 05 2012 17:10
28 replies to this topic
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#2
desmo
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Posted 05 September 2012 - 17:55
BBC seems to have decided to crop the image. I've seen the full sheet, but at ridiculously low res. Motorsports journalism test: BBC fails.
#3
jpf
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Posted 05 September 2012 - 18:52
I thought this was a nice analysis, and has an unobscured copy of the image:
http://malcolmstrach...hamiltons-data/
I've looked around a little but haven't found higher res than that.
http://malcolmstrach...hamiltons-data/
I've looked around a little but haven't found higher res than that.
#4
packapoo
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Posted 06 September 2012 - 05:56
Addressing the thread topic: I believe we've learned that he's a fwit rather then a twit.
(Tho' that's equally as possible).
(Tho' that's equally as possible).
#5
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 06 September 2012 - 12:15
BBC seems to have decided to crop the image. I've seen the full sheet, but at ridiculously low res. Motorsports journalism test: BBC fails.
It's a journalism fail when they don't have something that doesn't exist? Twitter photos are never very big.
#6
MatsNorway
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Posted 06 September 2012 - 17:48
Where is that guy.. that race engineer or something. and DaveW
#7
desmo
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Posted 06 September 2012 - 18:49
It's a journalism fail when they don't have something that doesn't exist? Twitter photos are never very big.
No, because they cropped what little there was to see for no obvious reason. You can see the portions they inexplicably cropped out at the link posted above http://malcolmstrach...hamiltons-data/
The fact that the image is so small makes cropping it even less excusable.
#8
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 07 September 2012 - 01:07
They run the top photo on their F1 stories at that size. So it was a design decision on a story that is about the narrative rather than the data.
#9
Greg Locock
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Posted 07 September 2012 - 01:42
As one ex gf said to me once "So your whole working life is spent looking at wiggly lines?". Graphs are very hard work for most people.They run the top photo on their F1 stories at that size. So it was a design decision on a story that is about the narrative rather than the data.
#10
desmo
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Posted 07 September 2012 - 01:58
The graph essentially was the story. The rest was gossip.
#11
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 07 September 2012 - 02:36
The graph detail isn't the story, no one is studying the differences between Jenson and Lewis or the wing packages outside the paddock. The story was Lewis broadcasting it.
#12
MatsNorway
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Posted 07 September 2012 - 15:05
But in this thread we don`t give a **** about the media all we want to know if there is any substance in the graphs that would be interesting to hear.
Some may have seen comparable graphs with schumacher and other drivers where they explain why scumi is faster.
Info like those documentaries provide is what we are hoping for.
Some may have seen comparable graphs with schumacher and other drivers where they explain why scumi is faster.
Info like those documentaries provide is what we are hoping for.
#13
Lukin
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 13:25
I can't see the ride height information? Is the top trace the DRS?
I see (top to bottom)
- DRS?
- Speed
- Steering Input
- Laptime Gain/Loss
- Gear
- Throttle/Brake Input
Im not going to comment on the data itself but the layout is interesting.
When I look at a comparison between two different sets of data I like to make the steering trace take up 25% of the screen; to me the steering is the most important input for me. I'd also seperate the brake and throttle to make it clearer; in slow speed corners its very important.
Also having the steering overlap the speed trace in half of the corners is bad. Overlapping traces is great, but not like that!
I hate gear traces, they are messy and quite often useless. There are ways to make them disappear, I used to have an indicator that showed up if there was a gear difference but otherwise it doesnt need to be shown. Especially in F1 when the ratios are open (in series where they are fixed ratios throughout the year some drivers might use different gears depending on their driving style).
I see (top to bottom)
- DRS?
- Speed
- Steering Input
- Laptime Gain/Loss
- Gear
- Throttle/Brake Input
Im not going to comment on the data itself but the layout is interesting.
When I look at a comparison between two different sets of data I like to make the steering trace take up 25% of the screen; to me the steering is the most important input for me. I'd also seperate the brake and throttle to make it clearer; in slow speed corners its very important.
Also having the steering overlap the speed trace in half of the corners is bad. Overlapping traces is great, but not like that!
I hate gear traces, they are messy and quite often useless. There are ways to make them disappear, I used to have an indicator that showed up if there was a gear difference but otherwise it doesnt need to be shown. Especially in F1 when the ratios are open (in series where they are fixed ratios throughout the year some drivers might use different gears depending on their driving style).
#14
Fat Boy
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Posted 10 September 2012 - 17:51
Ya, there's no ride height info there.
Steering is pretty heavily filtered. Gear plot is _way_ too big, what's up with that?
The apparent speed difference between the two is crazy. I don't know how it could really be that big. Maybe it is. That's one hell of an upgrade package, that's for sure.
Steering is pretty heavily filtered. Gear plot is _way_ too big, what's up with that?
The apparent speed difference between the two is crazy. I don't know how it could really be that big. Maybe it is. That's one hell of an upgrade package, that's for sure.
Edited by Fat Boy, 11 September 2012 - 13:36.
#15
MatsNorway
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Posted 12 September 2012 - 07:13
Ya, there's no ride height info there.
Steering is pretty heavily filtered. Gear plot is _way_ too big, what's up with that?
The apparent speed difference between the two is crazy. I don't know how it could really be that big. Maybe it is. That's one hell of an upgrade package, that's for sure.
Thank you. Is the graph fine enough to say anything about hamilton f.ex gaining in the slower corners?
#16
Fat Boy
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Posted 12 September 2012 - 16:04
Thank you. Is the graph fine enough to say anything about hamilton f.ex gaining in the slower corners?
Yep. Hamilton does gain in practically every corner and brake zone. What this tells me is that not only was the alternate package (Button's aero) lower on drag, but it was lower on downforce as well. The overall lap time was similar, with the advantage going to Button. A lower downforce package can be quicker on a track with long straights, but while that may be an advantage in qualifying, it often is a loss on a longer race run.
This is a temper tantrum by a mentally weak spoiled brat. You didn't see Button putting up the same trace and whinging about how he was 0.7 sec slower through the twisty bits because of a lack of downforce, did you?
#17
MatsNorway
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Posted 12 September 2012 - 16:33
It would be funny if Button posts on a similar setup where he beats him. Just for fun.
#18
Monstrobolaxa
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Posted 13 September 2012 - 09:43
I suspect everyone is missing the point!
The graph is actually quite useful and I bet everyone is studying with fine detail.
Just by having the speed trace there is a lot of info you can get.
Knowing the speed trace and knowing the radius of each corner (and each team can extract those from their own data) the can calculate the lateral G's. From the lateral G's the can extract the amount of downforce the car is experiencing in each corner, as each team gets access to the tire performance curves and coefficients. SO they can work it out quite easily....then use the info in the simulation tools and use the results to help R&D.
A lot of teams run acoustic analysis to understand what the other cars are doing (that was how Red Bull was caught with the throttle mapping). This trace will help them debug any issues with they're acoustic analysis and of any simulation work they've done to understand the Mclaren's performance.
The graph is actually quite useful and I bet everyone is studying with fine detail.
Just by having the speed trace there is a lot of info you can get.
Knowing the speed trace and knowing the radius of each corner (and each team can extract those from their own data) the can calculate the lateral G's. From the lateral G's the can extract the amount of downforce the car is experiencing in each corner, as each team gets access to the tire performance curves and coefficients. SO they can work it out quite easily....then use the info in the simulation tools and use the results to help R&D.
A lot of teams run acoustic analysis to understand what the other cars are doing (that was how Red Bull was caught with the throttle mapping). This trace will help them debug any issues with they're acoustic analysis and of any simulation work they've done to understand the Mclaren's performance.
#19
Greg Locock
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Posted 13 September 2012 - 10:16
But you can calibrate your acoustic speed traces with a radar gun or a stopwatch, this is not a huge step forward.
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#20
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 13 September 2012 - 13:11
Wouldn't you need to know the car's driven path through the corner rather than the geometric radius from the circuit map?
#21
Monstrobolaxa
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Posted 13 September 2012 - 13:31
Wouldn't you need to know the car's driven path through the corner rather than the geometric radius from the circuit map?
you would, but F1 drivers tend to be within 0.3m of each other so you can still get fairly decent data from that. When I mention the corner radius it's not the actual one but the radius of the arc that car follows...this is easy to extract from your own data. I've done this quite a few times...
#22
Ross Stonefeld
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Posted 13 September 2012 - 14:04
Sure, but we don't have that data. We have a speed trace. It might help if we had an accurate distance but do we know if that's the timing distance or the car's elapsed distance.
We have a visual on the rough time loss but not a hell of a lot else. It was good to see Fat Boy chime in since he was able to give us a crazy good assessment over an overlay between two Prost drivers years and years back. That he's basically shrugging over this one tells me there isn't enough to go on.
The previous link http://malcolmstrach...hamiltons-data/ is the best you can hope for
We have a visual on the rough time loss but not a hell of a lot else. It was good to see Fat Boy chime in since he was able to give us a crazy good assessment over an overlay between two Prost drivers years and years back. That he's basically shrugging over this one tells me there isn't enough to go on.
The previous link http://malcolmstrach...hamiltons-data/ is the best you can hope for
#23
Monstrobolaxa
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Posted 13 September 2012 - 14:19
For general public yes not much can be done.
But for the other teams it can be quite a useful bit of info, that is what I was trying to point out. Just to let the people who say: "what's all the fuss about" that it can actually be a big fuss for Mclaren.
But for the other teams it can be quite a useful bit of info, that is what I was trying to point out. Just to let the people who say: "what's all the fuss about" that it can actually be a big fuss for Mclaren.
#24
carlt
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Posted 13 September 2012 - 18:23
For general public yes not much can be done.
But for the other teams it can be quite a useful bit of info, that is what I was trying to point out. Just to let the people who say: "what's all the fuss about" that it can actually be a big fuss for Mclaren.
the only fuss for Mclaren is that he was a naughty boy and didn't tow the party line
#25
Greg Locock
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Posted 13 September 2012 - 22:17
Oddly enough I've recently had a couple of teams contact me about estimating rpm, and hence perhaps speed, from the engine sound.
#26
Fat Boy
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Posted 14 September 2012 - 16:02
I suspect everyone is missing the point!
The graph is actually quite useful and I bet everyone is studying with fine detail.
Just by having the speed trace there is a lot of info you can get.
The resolution of the graph makes super detailed analysis pretty much impossible. You just have to have better data to make any real conclusions about aero. On the other hand, it does give you the acceleration curve of the car, so you can probably suss out drag and/or HP.
Ultimately, this is what I find. I must be aware of what my competitors are doing. I certainly look at every car in the paddock to gain any competitive advantage. Having said that, obsessing about someone else' car means you aren't paying enough attention to your own. While geeky engineers will get what they can from the Tweet, I bet it will be in their spare time, not on work time.
#27
Fat Boy
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Posted 14 September 2012 - 16:04
Oddly enough I've recently had a couple of teams contact me about estimating rpm, and hence perhaps speed, from the engine sound.
They're looking for RPM, because that will give them a clue on power. As you said, speed measurements can come quite easily from a gun.
#28
Greg Locock
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Posted 15 September 2012 - 02:28
Yup. The ultimate in ludicrousness I came across was a solar car team that insisted on using codewords and encryption. As you are probably thankfully unaware, the speed that you driive in a solar car race is entirely set by your strategy, based on sun and battery state, and is not affected except in the most mechanical of ways by what the other cars are doing. The most similar sport is ocean yacht racing, but there you also have to consider a 2 dimensional route finding problem, and knowledge of where the competition are might affect your decisions.obsessing about someone else' car means you aren't paying enough attention to your own.
#29
desmo
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Posted 15 September 2012 - 03:37
I think the main point of secrecy in a team of more than three or four must be to build esprit de corps. If there's any real money at stake and the group is larger than that, there are no secrets. $ > secrecy. Having "secrets" makes everyone feel special and privileged and part of the inside group. That plus it helps with ass coverage- unless there is money at stake.
