The reality of modern F1 is that 1/3 of the drivers had corporate sponsorship behind them when they were hired this year. If that were no longer necessary, how many drivers would still be around next year?
I don't want this to turn into a bash fest. I think most of the drivers are quite capable. Karthikeyan and Senna would probably go. The rest all have a shot, I think. Perez would definitely get another contract. Grosjean & Maldonado have the speed, and their aggressive driving can be tempered to make them more produce more results. The Toro Rosso guys haven't had a lot of stand out performances, but they haven't really looked out of their depth too often. Petrov has been handily beaten by Kovalainen in qualifying, but his race pace hasn't been bad, and Pic hasn't fared too poorly against his much more experienced teammate.
Which "pay drivers" would keep their seats next year if F1 teams no longer needed sponsored drivers
Started by
Nustang70
, Sep 08 2012 20:08
39 replies to this topic
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#2
Disgrace
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 20:19
Good thread.
Grosjean and Perez are definite keepers. Pic looks a potential keeper, he's going better than I expected.
Senna and Karthikeyan are definite goners. Maldonado could find himself gone; if you think Sato was expensive in the Jordan, this guy is something else.
The rest are more difficult; it's been impossible to really judge the performances of the STR duo. Petrov has shown that he can deliver in the past but hasn't had the same car as Kovy quite often.
Grosjean and Perez are definite keepers. Pic looks a potential keeper, he's going better than I expected.
Senna and Karthikeyan are definite goners. Maldonado could find himself gone; if you think Sato was expensive in the Jordan, this guy is something else.
The rest are more difficult; it's been impossible to really judge the performances of the STR duo. Petrov has shown that he can deliver in the past but hasn't had the same car as Kovy quite often.
#3
Schumacher7
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 20:27
Is Grosjean a pay driver?
#4
KavB
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 20:28
Grosjean and Perez for sure. I assume Ricciardo and Vergne are there because they are Red Bull backed? I think they could find a seat elsewhere but they aren't must have.. Maldonado I think would stay because he is really fast, but he would probably find himself near the back to mature!
Senna, Petrov, Narain would definitely be out. Pic has been fairly impressive, but I think he would struggle to stay in F1 as well.
Senna, Petrov, Narain would definitely be out. Pic has been fairly impressive, but I think he would struggle to stay in F1 as well.
#5
spacekid
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 20:35
Oooh, good game.
I think Grosjean and Perez are definate keepers.
The other other one on that list I would definately have is Maldonado, but I accept it would be a risk. I like his speed, but the guy needs his head re-wired.
The others guys are all pretty tough to judge, except for Senna who I just don't rate and has had long enough to show what he can do (or not) and Karthikeyan who is clearly well out of his depth. Maybe they can cut it, maybe they can't. I haven't got a clue how to judge Pic.
I think Grosjean and Perez are definate keepers.
The other other one on that list I would definately have is Maldonado, but I accept it would be a risk. I like his speed, but the guy needs his head re-wired.
The others guys are all pretty tough to judge, except for Senna who I just don't rate and has had long enough to show what he can do (or not) and Karthikeyan who is clearly well out of his depth. Maybe they can cut it, maybe they can't. I haven't got a clue how to judge Pic.
#6
Fastcake
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 20:36
Are Ricciardo and Vergne pay drivers?
Perez definitely, Grosjean most likely even if he has been rather crash happy, maybe Petrov and Pic. Can be rather hard to judge the backmarkers. Maldonado has the speed to make it in F1, but you get to a point where his continuous poor driving costs too many points to redeem him.
Senna, I've given him his far shot, but I really don't think he has it. Karthikeyan is long, long gone.
Perez definitely, Grosjean most likely even if he has been rather crash happy, maybe Petrov and Pic. Can be rather hard to judge the backmarkers. Maldonado has the speed to make it in F1, but you get to a point where his continuous poor driving costs too many points to redeem him.
Senna, I've given him his far shot, but I really don't think he has it. Karthikeyan is long, long gone.
#7
Disgrace
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 20:46
Are Ricciardo and Vergne pay drivers?
Is Grosjean a pay driver?
"Pay driver" is probably not the best term to describe most of these guys.
To me, a "pay driver" is someone who hasn't got the outstanding junior formulae results to back up the funding they have. Of that bunch, only Karthikeyan and Pic lack either a championship or runners-up spot in high-level junior formulae.
#8
jals99
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 20:54
Petrov is dominating Kovalainen in races (6-3 in races, where both finished), so if Heikki stays, Vitaly definetely should stay too...
Crashking Grosjean should go with or without money...
Crashking Grosjean should go with or without money...
Edited by jals99, 08 September 2012 - 20:55.
#9
Atreiu
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 21:03
STR is in this void in which I have no idea how good either driver is.
#10
BigCHrome
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 21:06
Grosjean isn't a pay driver. Neither are Ricciardo and Vergne.
Maldonado will find a seat because he does have some pace, and there aren't THAT many promising drivers in the lower categories.
Perez will obviously find a seat because he's pretty good.
Maldonado will find a seat because he does have some pace, and there aren't THAT many promising drivers in the lower categories.
Perez will obviously find a seat because he's pretty good.
#11
Les
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 21:09
Yeah Grosjean and Perez would definitely keep their seats, Ricciardo would be worth another chance and perhaps Pic too.
The odd thing about Maldonado isn't all the accidents its that win which is completely out of context with the rest of his season.
The odd thing about Maldonado isn't all the accidents its that win which is completely out of context with the rest of his season.
#12
vgrocco
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 21:10
Grosjean and Perez definitely staying, Maldonado probably staying unless he keeps on crashing, Ricciardo and Vergne staying until Red Bull finds better young drivers, Pic seems to be doing a good job so he might stay too as well as Petrov, Senna and Karthikeyan definitely going.
#13
Wander
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 21:12
If I was a boss, I'd hire Perez, maybe Grosjean, forget the rest.
#14
LHKEAT
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 21:16
AGREE! Petrov is good when the car is fast like 2011 early Renault where he won podium and currently in smaller team Former Team Lotus is average not fast n not too slow but still beating Heikki in the race just losing in the qualifying anymore gave more pressure on teammate than Jarno Trulli. He deserved to stay. drivers like Senna, Glock, Kartikatyen, Pedro should leave. It's better for Pedro in management role over as a driver.Petrov is dominating Kovalainen in races (6-3 in races, where both finished), so if Heikki stays, Vitaly definetely should stay too...
Crashking Grosjean should go with or without money...
#15
MortenF1
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 21:17
...yeah, is Grosjean really a pay-driver? Which sponsor are there purely because of him?
Assuming he is, yes I'd consider him, together with Perez and Petrov as well, 'cause he's been doing really good and sometimes beaten Kovalainen.
Assuming he is, yes I'd consider him, together with Perez and Petrov as well, 'cause he's been doing really good and sometimes beaten Kovalainen.
#16
jals99
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 21:18
Many people told Total is paying more than 20 millons of euros for Grosjean, something that Petrov's or Senna's sponsors never could match.
( Alesi, Petrov manager and some journalist told it )
( Alesi, Petrov manager and some journalist told it )
#17
SpaMaster
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 21:25
Perez. Didn't even know that he was a pay driver.
Was tempted to say Maldonado. But, that guy has scored 29 pts out of which 25 came in a single race. So, from the remaining 11 races he has scored 4 pts. Senna who was seen to be much underwhelming has scored 24 or 25 pts, isn't it? So, decided otherwise.
Was tempted to say Maldonado. But, that guy has scored 29 pts out of which 25 came in a single race. So, from the remaining 11 races he has scored 4 pts. Senna who was seen to be much underwhelming has scored 24 or 25 pts, isn't it? So, decided otherwise.
#18
Kingshark
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 21:25
Vergne and Ricciardo aren't really pay drivers. They are backed by Red Bull only because they are on the junior program.
Petrov, Karthikeyan and Senna are definite losers of this situation. Maldonado will probably stay because despite him being a banzai driver, he does have speed and talent. Of course, Grosjean and Perez are obviously keepers.
Petrov, Karthikeyan and Senna are definite losers of this situation. Maldonado will probably stay because despite him being a banzai driver, he does have speed and talent. Of course, Grosjean and Perez are obviously keepers.
#19
Tonka
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 21:27
According to Pitpass, Petrov has already lost his sponsor. He could be out next year anyway, which is a pity, because he's pretty quick and he's also safe.
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#20
WatchingF1since4yearsold
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 21:37
Grosjean, and Perez are easy, though whether Grosjean is consistent enough to be with a team as good as Lotus is another question imho.
Ricciardo, Vergne have both been big let downs with Toro Rosso so expect at least one of them gone, both if they aren't paid anymore.
Petrov is okay but without a better car it's hard to tell, same with Pic
Senna again is okay, from Williams point of view at least he isn't a kamikaze waiting to happen like Maldonado who should be gone ASAP.
Karthikeyan is just awful lol
Ricciardo, Vergne have both been big let downs with Toro Rosso so expect at least one of them gone, both if they aren't paid anymore.
Petrov is okay but without a better car it's hard to tell, same with Pic
Senna again is okay, from Williams point of view at least he isn't a kamikaze waiting to happen like Maldonado who should be gone ASAP.
Karthikeyan is just awful lol
#21
Gagá Bueno
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 21:43
If Perez (Claro/TELMEX) or Grosjean (TOTAL) are "paydrivers", the list should maybe include also the "protégé" of some Spanish Bank, or not? Only to be fair...
Edited by Gagá Bueno, 08 September 2012 - 21:44.
#22
apoka
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 21:54
I would guess they are worse than Webber as TR and RB can probably exchange data and they signed Webber for next year. That said, there would be very few rookies able to beat Webber, so I agree we really don't know much.STR is in this void in which I have no idea how good either driver is.
#23
Nustang70
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 22:04
If Perez (Claro/TELMEX) or Grosjean (TOTAL) are "paydrivers", the list should maybe include also the "protégé" of some Spanish Bank, or not? Only to be fair...
I guess I should have qualified my use of the term "pay driver," a term I intentionally put in quotes. I don't mean the term to be a derogation; most of these drivers have impressive lower formula CVs and would merit a shot in F1 without sponsorship, but all of these drivers were brought into F1 with corporate backing.
Ricciardo & Vergne are backed by Red Bull. Toro Rosso is partially funded by Red Bull only puts Red Bull backed drivers in its cars, so those two are essentially sponsored drivers.
Again, this isn't to disparage any of these drivers. Grosjean, for instance, was probably the most deserving rookie in the field. Still, Total helped secure Grosjean's seat, as others have noted.
And the difference between Perez/Grosjean and Alonso is that Alonso would secure a seat without Santander--Perez & Grosjean, while they may be deserving, may not have without corporate backing.
In modern F1, it's quite difficult to break into F1 on talent alone.
#24
hammibal
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 22:06
Karthikeyan is not good enough and Senna has been poor
#25
WatchingF1since4yearsold
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 22:06
I would guess they are worse than Webber as TR and RB can probably exchange data and they signed Webber for next year. That said, there would be very few rookies able to beat Webber, so I agree we really don't know much.
you would still expect Toro Rosso's drivers both to be doing much better than they have been, 4 and 8 points respectively and half of those coming in the last race thanks in no small part to the first corner crash is just nowhere near what they expect.
Algesuari I rated much higher than both of them and he is still really young, was really surprised they ditched him. imho Red Bull are being very conservative, they seem to be waiting on another Vettel to come through at Toro Rosso, which realistically isn't going to happen, for one someone that good is pretty rare, for another the chances of a Monza 2008 where you have a Toro Rosso winning a race is incredibly unlikely. they should have stuck with Jaime and given one of Ricciardo/Vergne a chance this season alongside him. (looking at how they have struggled this season I expect both would have had chances this year alongside Algesuari).
If I were Red Bull I would make a decision with Webber on his long term future and decided if they want to give him a long time contract or if he wants to keep going that long. once you do that then you can look at Toro Rosso and go for drivers that do well for a lower/mid order team and if one of them is out performing the other then you look at whether or not you want them to be a long term replacement for Mark.
#26
Nustang70
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 22:21
Of the top drivers to emerge in the past 15 or so years, I believe only Alonso, Webber, & Vettel were assisted by sponsorship backing to get into F1. Raikkonen, Button, Montoya, Kubica, Rosberg, Hamilton, Heidfeld, & Massa all got drives without sponsorship backing.
Edited by Nustang70, 08 September 2012 - 22:24.
#27
Longtimefan
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 22:26
Maldonado needs to stay simply for the entertainment value he provides*
*Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinion if he hits Schumi
*Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinion if he hits Schumi
Edited by Longtimefan, 08 September 2012 - 22:27.
#28
pingu666
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 22:28
you forgot paul di resta (widely thought fifi gets a discount on engines or something for having him)
could also use the term, "bring money"
alonso does aswell.
could also use the term, "bring money"
alonso does aswell.
#29
Disgrace
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 22:29
Karthikeyan is just awful lol
You say that, and he is obviously not of F1 calibre, but he is having a decent season. It would be easy to accuse him of ruining others races, getting in the way in qualifying and crashing but he is doing none of those. Others have crashed into him, and he has crashed due to technical failure, but he hasn't done anything you'd readily expect.
Edited by Disgrace, 08 September 2012 - 22:29.
#30
Myrvold
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 22:30
Of the top drivers to emerge in the past 15 or so years, I believe only Alonso, Webber, & Vettel were assisted by sponsorship backing to get into F1. Raikkonen, Button, Montoya, Kubica, Rosberg, Hamilton, Heidfeld, & Massa all got drives without sponsorship backing.
Hamilton had no sponsorship backing in the usual "sponsor" way. But the way he was brought up by McLaren is kinda the same as Red Bull is doing with the RB drivers.
Not sure regarding Heidfeld as well, he was driving for the McLaren jr. team (or West competition).
Though, to answer the thread. I answered Grosjean, Perez & Senna. Even though, in this scenario, drivers with sponsors aren't that important. I still think one of the slower teams would've used Senna and his name. At least tried.
#31
undersquare
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 22:31
I can't see why Williams would keep Maldonado without his $42m. He's a liability, and not improving. His temperament is the problem, and he can't change it evidently.
#32
Prost1997T
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Posted 08 September 2012 - 22:45
You say that, and he is obviously not of F1 calibre, but he is having a decent season. It would be easy to accuse him of ruining others races, getting in the way in qualifying and crashing but he is doing none of those. Others have crashed into him, and he has crashed due to technical failure, but he hasn't done anything you'd readily expect.
He was 2 seconds slower than PDLR (a driver past his best, which was solid but not spectacular) in Spa qualifying. He's only ahead of de la Rosa in the standings by virtue of the Monaco start crash.
#33
Nemo29E
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 00:44
He was 2 seconds slower than PDLR (a driver past his best, which was solid but not spectacular) in Spa qualifying. He's only ahead of de la Rosa in the standings by virtue of the Monaco start crash.
Traffic apparently, didn't get a clean lap (I doubt this is complete lies pedro has been kicking his ass for qualy pace but 2 seconds is silly.) Anyway I am not saying he is anything more than competent at the level of racing, but he gets thrown in the same group as Yamamoto all to often (give Narain a points capable car and it might happen, Sakon I would not hold my breath). Hes clearly not F1 material on merit alone but he is a step above some truly terrible pay drivers of the past.
I am all for the cream of the talent rising to the top (which last decade or so really has improved alot) but I can understand the choice of Narain when the monetary factor comes in, relatively al right driver and provides good finances at a time when the team will never challenge for points and has another driver as a guide mark anyway.
#34
OSX
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Posted 09 September 2012 - 01:44
Total-ly. Total, the French sponsor of Lotus, pressured the team long and hard to get Grosjean in the second car before (to quote Total's F1/Grosjean site) "Sponsored by Total, Romain Grosjean join[ed] the Lotus".Is Grosjean a pay driver?
http://www.f1.total.com/en/
#35
Jimisgod
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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:45
Of the top drivers to emerge in the past 15 or so years, I believe only Alonso, Webber, & Vettel were assisted by sponsorship backing to get into F1. Raikkonen, Button, Montoya, Kubica, Rosberg, Hamilton, Heidfeld, & Massa all got drives without sponsorship backing.
Erm, the RBR young driver program for Vettel, and Hamilton's cozy little McLaren deal were basically the same.
Massa would have been nowhere had he not had his hand held by Ferrari through the Sauber years.
#36
thuGG
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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:47
Perez and Grosjean for sure, I don't know about Torro Rosso drivers.
#37
Spillage
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Posted 10 September 2012 - 07:54
I think the best way to judge this is to ask if any of these drivers would acquire interest from other teams if they were to become available. This is true of Perez, Grosjean and perhaps also Pic, less true of Senna, Karthikeyan and the STR duo.
#38
aray
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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:27
OT has lack of understanding about what 'pay drivers' means...so are some posters..
anyway i believe senna and petrov are goner...
anyway i believe senna and petrov are goner...
#39
korzeniow
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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:30
Why there is Grosjean in the poll but not Alonso?
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#40
F1ultimate
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Posted 10 September 2012 - 08:38
Total-ly. Total, the French sponsor of Lotus, pressured the team long and hard to get Grosjean in the second car before (to quote Total's F1/Grosjean site) "Sponsored by Total, Romain Grosjean join[ed] the Lotus".
http://www.f1.total.com/en/
Wow. I had no idea it was that literal that Total is at Lotus mostly because of Grojean.
