It´s all for everyone to see on the photos/videos.
It's the only thing we have so far. I'm refusing to fill the gaps in it with my imagination, but that's just me.
Of course you're free to believe what you will.
Posted 13 September 2012 - 13:28
It´s all for everyone to see on the photos/videos.
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Posted 13 September 2012 - 13:40
It's the only thing we have so far. I'm refusing to fill the gaps in it with my imagination, but that's just me.
Posted 13 September 2012 - 15:16
Was Alonso getting a tow? Was DiResta outside of the tow? Considering their respective start line performance, would you consider the Farrari to have better or worse traction? Was Alonso looking in the mirror because he saw dust kick up? Was he checking to be sure he was past DiResta?OK, I respect that, but don´t say it as if it was a wild guess ... it isn´t!!
Don´t you agree a car getting a better exit from a corner stays at a higher speed for quite some time, providing they´re both on the same series and full throttle? Don´t you agree that the proccess to overcome that speed deficit, and even pulling away 1/3 of a car´s lenght CAN´T be completed in such a short run?
Yes, it´s a guess, but having watched motor-racing for quite some time as I presume you did, it´s quite a safe one, isn´t it?
Posted 13 September 2012 - 15:40
Was Alonso getting a tow? Was DiResta outside of the tow?
Considering their respective start line performance, would you consider the Farrari to have better or worse traction?
Was Alonso looking in the mirror because he saw dust kick up? Was he checking to be sure he was past DiResta?
Nowhere near enough information available and the pictures are simply not clear enough.
Edited by Skinnyguy, 13 September 2012 - 15:44.
Posted 13 September 2012 - 16:03
Was Alonso getting a tow? Was DiResta outside of the tow? Considering their respective start line performance, would you consider the Farrari to have better or worse traction? Was Alonso looking in the mirror because he saw dust kick up? Was he checking to be sure he was past DiResta?
Nowhere near enough information available and the pictures are simply not clear enough.
Posted 13 September 2012 - 16:21
As is the condemnation. The main argument employed here is not in defence of Alonso but to point out there is nothing conclusive about any of the images we have. It's all been extrapolated. Alonso might have been bad. He may have pushed DiResta off and then hypocritically complained about Vettel, but nothing in the thread demonstrates this one way or the other.The defence of Alonso based on the apparent inconclusive photographs is disingenuous.
Well that's the main defence here, isn't it? Why would DiResta go on the grass unless he was forced to? Cars get out of shape all the time with a bit of overdriving here and there, adrenaline rushing from the start and slightly angered by being taken at the start line. There's no doubt at all that DiResta was at one point to the side of Alonso, he may very well have been pushed off, but you cannot see that or demonstrate it, let alone be critical that penalties are not being applied fairly.Basic common sense says nobody goes off track without reason, particularly a flat out curve. Simple viewing of the start replays shows that Alonso got worse traction out of the chicane due to running wide on cement dust, di resta was pulling alongside (hey, why alonso was cheking his mirrors- or maybe he's just vain) and Alonso felt the need to check his mirrors and move to defend.
Posted 13 September 2012 - 17:48
As is the condemnation. The main argument employed here is not in defence of Alonso but to point out there is nothing conclusive about any of the images we have. It's all been extrapolated. Alonso might have been bad. He may have pushed DiResta off and then hypocritically complained about Vettel, but nothing in the thread demonstrates this one way or the other.
Well that's the main defence here, isn't it? Why would DiResta go on the grass unless he was forced to? Cars get out of shape all the time with a bit of overdriving here and there, adrenaline rushing from the start and slightly angered by being taken at the start line. There's no doubt at all that DiResta was at one point to the side of Alonso, he may very well have been pushed off, but you cannot see that or demonstrate it, let alone be critical that penalties are not being applied fairly.
Posted 13 September 2012 - 19:01
As is the condemnation. The main argument employed here is not in defence of Alonso but to point out there is nothing conclusive about any of the images we have. It's all been extrapolated. Alonso might have been bad. He may have pushed DiResta off and then hypocritically complained about Vettel, but nothing in the thread demonstrates this one way or the other.
Well that's the main defence here, isn't it? Why would DiResta go on the grass unless he was forced to? Cars get out of shape all the time with a bit of overdriving here and there, adrenaline rushing from the start and slightly angered by being taken at the start line. There's no doubt at all that DiResta was at one point to the side of Alonso, he may very well have been pushed off, but you cannot see that or demonstrate it, let alone be critical that penalties are not being applied fairly.
Posted 13 September 2012 - 21:06
Posted 13 September 2012 - 21:33
The car in front simply gets to push the pedal first, as you will know from all your years watching motorsport.
The camera showing the Sauber accelerating ahead is also no indication at all of the relative performance of the Force India versus Ferrari due to the funny wide lens in use, as well as the usual bunching effect seen at any corner.
Edited by Skinnyguy, 13 September 2012 - 21:48.
Posted 13 September 2012 - 21:55
Posted 13 September 2012 - 22:03
There's no way I can convince you that you don't have enough information to be certain, I understand that, so I'll have to consider your 1% KERS doubt a significant win.
Posted 13 September 2012 - 22:08
Posted 13 September 2012 - 23:11
No question that the deer in this instance was hit, but you can't know whether the car drove at a stationary deer or whether it ran out unexpectedly.
Posted 14 September 2012 - 10:31
Edited by ali_M, 14 September 2012 - 10:34.
Posted 14 September 2012 - 11:54
Posted 14 September 2012 - 16:34
Watched the race start a number of times.
Brundle said: "... and I think it was Paul DiResta getting out on the dirt, hmmm, all by himself in a way..."
I tend to agree there. No penalty from where I'm sitting. It's not the same as the Vettel/Alonso incident. DiResta insisted where he should have backed out.
Posted 14 September 2012 - 16:51
Romain Grosjean - Banned!!!!!First lap right after the start
Charlie doesn't do penalties in that situation
also no sane steward will penalize a Ferrari in Monza for such a trivial thing
Posted 14 September 2012 - 20:03
There is plenty of room to Alonso's left. I think Paul had room, but was carrying too much speed and made a mistake...kind of like he does on Lap 12, ALL BY HIMSELF!
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Posted 15 September 2012 - 00:34
Absolute bollocks. Surely he can drive on straight. These theories are fascinating
Edited by PoleMan, 15 September 2012 - 00:37.
Posted 15 September 2012 - 07:33
Your style of writing is jewel as is last but one sentence in your revelation.
Oh my! Exactly what is absolute bollocks? That Alonso wasn't in the middle of the road behind Kamui, or that diResta didn't throw himself off the road on lap 12?
No angle of the Alonso-diResta incident is absolutely definitive, but the two things I've stated are there for the naked, "HONEST," eye to see. That doesn't mean Fernando didn't interfere with Paul, but until we see a di Resta onboard, those firm in their belief that Alonso ran him off, have only that desperate belief to cling to. Fortunately, the folks that matter, diResta, FI and the race stewards, saw no problem with the maneuver. That leaves just a few bitter folks on a public forum-- FULL of hate for Alonso but THIN on any EVIDENCE of wrongdoing--wailing, whining and gnashing their teeth about a non-event. I can live with that!
Posted 15 September 2012 - 07:49
Anyway, can somebody provide a quote from Charlie Whiting regarding the start? I mean when does it end, after the first corner or the entire first lap?
Posted 16 September 2012 - 21:50
Anyone?
Edited by Skinnyguy, 16 September 2012 - 21:52.
Posted 16 September 2012 - 23:25
also: "carrying too much speed" on a full acceleration part of the track would mean he accelerated better than Alonso (who wasn't carrying too much speed, as he stayed on road), thus he was alongside.It´s irrelevant. You can´t push people to the grass "because it´s the start". Ask Romain.
There´s lots of people with that "it´s the start" stuff. There´s nothing making that moment different from any other from a legal point of view. The stewards take a less agressive approach judging incidents for obvious reasons, but it´s not as if racing etiquette suddenly vanishes for seconds and this is carmageddon. You CAN´T push people alongside to the grass for no reason.
I respect other opinions, but Poleman, would like to know something, I´m thrilled... how did di Resta manage to be "carrying too much speed" there? What does that mean exactly? 450 km/h? And how did he "make a mistake" during a straight? He forgot that the road was that black stuff?? This issue can be twisted to dead, but there´s no way di Resta would have left the track in a straight without being squeezed by someone. No way. Surely I admit OP pics angle make distances between cars in the Z axis hard to judge (that´s why I trust other stuff to determine their positions, like previous corner exit), but the X axis is perfectly clear, and there was no room for a car alongside Alonso to stay in the road. That´s why di Resta went off.
Posted 17 September 2012 - 08:07
Posted 17 September 2012 - 12:01
Hi Gareth.4. The fact Di Resta took to the grass suggests he may have (I find it difficult to believe he got "out of shape" on a bit of track that is essentially a straight).
Hi Skinnyguy.When someone starts arguing semantics, it´s usually a bad sign. All I wanted to say is that all existing evidence points towards di Resta being there. I gave some reasons about why it points that way above, feel free to discuss them.
Edited by juandiego, 19 September 2012 - 09:24.