Mclaren engine deal

if the new engine rules are brought in it might even mean goodbye to the privateers. If they are going to be at such a disadvantage as the media are making out. I think F1 should leave things as they are now. You all seem to be enjoying the racing so why change.

I guess that is Bernie's point. Why anyone would make a career changing decision based on regulations which may or may not be introduced I do not know. That sounds completely mad. F1 is full of regulations/races/teams which are proposed but never come in. If Hamilton's management did not research this thoroughly enough then that says a lot. The engine regulations have already changed (after Ecclestone complained about them) so it is not like it was impossible for them to change again or be cancelled.

Button pissed off Honda completely in 2004 when he said to one of the big-wigs, camera rolling, "it isn't hard to build an engine that lasts for three laps", and then turned around and walked away. If stereotyping works, a Japanese wont forget that.

They renewed his contract, he got their first race win and he's extremely popular in Japan. That would count for more than a bad comment almost a decade ago.

Will we see Mclaren with a Ferrari engine in 2014?

McLaren could probably build their own engines although they are probably late to the party as Mercedes, Ferrari etc are well underway in development of new engines and some of them already have them running on dyno's.

McLaren could probably build their own engines although they are probably late to the party as Mercedes, Ferrari etc are well underway in development of new engines and some of them already have them running on dyno's.

They don't have a problem until 2015 anyway and by the looks of it none of the teams will have to take on new engines even for 2014 so this does give McLaren a lot of time to develop its own engine...

Surely if McLaren were to build an engine, they would wait a few years.

Get a supply of new engines from Ilmor and back engineer what Ilmor have. Considering McLaren have virtually no experience in building race engines, this might not be a bad idea if they eventually want to build their own.

Surely if McLaren were to build an engine, they would wait a few years.

Get a supply of new engines from Ilmor and back engineer what Ilmor have. Considering McLaren have virtually no experience in building race engines, this might not be a bad idea if they eventually want to build their own.

The strategy for McLaren is to develop into a competitor of Ferrari in road cars, which is why they have built a massive new factory at Woking. They are committed to having their own engines for their road car range, and have the first one in production. It would not be a huge step and it would make sense in marketing terms, to biuild a F1 engine. I think they will perhaps acquire Riccardo in time and build that up into their engine division. And if they do, they will succeed. Ron won't countenance failure!

Well, this is a big blow for Hamilton if it happens. How unlucky can you get that you sign and rumours like this start leaking.

Really unlucky guy.

If it pans out to be a bad decision, it'll be nothing to do with luck. It'll be because it was a piece of exceptionally poor judgement on Hamiltons part.

McLaren will stay with Mercedes for at least 3 more years. After that the future is harder to predict, but I dont think petty rivalries such as this would be allowed to interfere with something so crucial.

The strategy for McLaren is to develop into a competitor of Ferrari in road cars, which is why they have built a massive new factory at Woking. They are committed to having their own engines for their road car range, and have the first one in production. It would not be a huge step and it would make sense in marketing terms, to biuild a F1 engine. I think they will perhaps acquire Riccardo in time and build that up into their engine division. And if they do, they will succeed. Ron won't countenance failure!

Yep. Can see this happening alright. McLaren need to wait until they have enough competance in the engine area before attempting to do so though. Back engineering another engine would certainly be a good start.

Surely if McLaren were to build an engine, they would wait a few years.

Get a supply of new engines from Ilmor and back engineer what Ilmor have. Considering McLaren have virtually no experience in building race engines, this might not be a bad idea if they eventually want to build their own.

Pretty sure that any supply agreement would not allow this, and that any used engines have to be returned to the manufacturer.

No. I believe the contract runs till 2015.
Neale is already talking about the 2014 Merc engine:
http://www.formula1....11/9/12544.html

Yep, looks like they'll be sticking with Merc for a while yet.

“I’m not going to discuss the contractual terms but I can tell you that there’s an absolute cast-iron guarantee that it’s our intention to stay with Mercedes Benz as we transition to the next generation of engines. They are our engine partner. We very much like working with them and want to do so for many years to come.”

My point is that with double down of Mercedes and this serious bet into F1 means that Mclaren will be in second tier. All new information will arrive later at Woking.

My point is that with double down of Mercedes and this serious bet into F1 means that Mclaren will be in second tier. All new information will arrive later at Woking.

I've read that McLaren will be given the engine spec/dimensions at the last possible minute, while the manufacturers like Mercedes can already start designing the 2014 car.

My point is that with double down of Mercedes and this serious bet into F1 means that Mclaren will be in second tier. All new information will arrive later at Woking.

At worst it will be one year of being a step behind. Surely the engines will be "frozen" at the end of 2014 so parity will be assured from that point onward.

I'm still hoping for a shock Honda return, and I see I'm not alone. Button is VERY popular in Japan and spends time there often with his girlfriend. No problems there.

Honda's corporate culture is the issue - the last decade or so they've been moving away from being a driver's car company, but I see signs of life in some of their upcoming products. Maybe that means the engineers and racers in the company are getting a bit more influence. We can only hope. It's still a pipe dream but Japan has been dormant for far too long in F1 (manufacturer and sponsors).

At worst it will be one year of being a step behind. Surely the engines will be "frozen" at the end of 2014 so parity will be assured from that point onward.

I'm still hoping for a shock Honda return, and I see I'm not alone. Button is VERY popular in Japan and spends time there often with his girlfriend. No problems there.

Honda's corporate culture is the issue - the last decade or so they've been moving away from being a driver's car company, but I see signs of life in some of their upcoming products. Maybe that means the engineers and racers in the company are getting a bit more influence. We can only hope. It's still a pipe dream but Japan has been dormant for far too long in F1 (manufacturer and sponsors).

I was hoping Honda would come back too, I thought McLaren might approach them. But its too late, the rivals already have their engines manufacturered and running on the dyno. They'd be at a competitive disadvantage already most likely. It's not just the engine, its the massive recovery systems too that are allowed.

Edited by ZooL, 29 September 2012 - 14:12.

Well, this is a big blow for Hamilton if it happens. How unlucky can you get that you sign and rumours like this start leaking.

Really unlucky guy.

It's not unlucky, or even a co-incidence: it's Bernie's game of tactically leaking news stories to maximise media coverage of the sport.

With McLaren's (relatively) recent move to the Paragon facility and sportscar programmes powered by in-house engines well under way, I would think that the obvious long-term solution would be for the team to build its own engines, or reaching an agreement with an existing manufacturer (Cosworth?) to badge its units as McLarens in return for investment, similar to how Mercedes took over Ilmor in the 1990s. The question is if the deal with Mercedes, which will surely only become more unfavourable as the years pass, can be extended until this plan can be initialised, or if a short-term stop-gap solution will also be required, which would be reminiscent of McLaren's situation in 1993 with customer Ford engines.

Honda returning to power McLaren would be a nice story, but I'm not so sure about it, in the short-term (i.e. 2014) at least.

Edited by midgrid, 29 September 2012 - 14:18.

Maybe McLaren dont need to worry anymore

http://www.pitpass.c...says-Ecclestone


haha

I think this is just lobbying going on. Bernie has made it clear for some time that he does not like the new engines. He's now got his old friend Chris Sylt to write an article suggesting that this is the position of everyone involved, which I read as meaning that, clearly, not everyone is in Bernies camp and he's slightly worried now that he's not winning the argument.

I was hoping Honda would come back too, I thought McLaren might approach them. But its too late, the rivals already have their engines manufacturered and running on the dyno. They'd be at a competitive disadvantage already most likely. It's not just the engine, its the massive recovery systems too that are allowed.

There may already have been feelers sent out, and possibly some initial work undertaken at Honda, even if to just analyse potential costs for a competitive engine programme.

The real question is whether there is any desire within Honda to return to F1, and what resource they would be willing to commit - considering their business has been declining over the past few years - would commiting the resource to F1 help them as much as investing the resource in other advertising and product development.

Would LH have been able to put a clause in his contract which stipulated that his new team are not allowed to supply engines to his old team?

Would LH have been able to put a clause in his contract which stipulated that his new team are not allowed to supply engines to his old team?

I very much doubt it.

Pretty sure that any supply agreement would not allow this, and that any used engines have to be returned to the manufacturer.

I know the FIA puts special seals on the engines to ensure the engines per season rules.

Do manufacturers also put their own seals on engines to ensure that they aren't taken apart by a constructor ?

I know the FIA puts special seals on the engines to ensure the engines per season rules.

Do manufacturers also put their own seals on engines to ensure that they aren't taken apart by a constructor ?

Don't know if they put seals on, but I'm sure it's in the contract. I read something about it sometime ago in print. It's not unusual as they would want to protect their intellectual property. Can't link to anything to prove it, but I'd be surprised to find any engine manufacturer did not have that tied down.

So McLaren doesn't need to change its engines for several years and Bernie says there aren't any new engines coming in anyway. Does that make this thread redundant

Yes it is pretty redundant.

When their current contract runs out then they can continue with Mercedes or change to whichever is the strongest of the new engines, there would be nothing stopping them moving to Renault or any new manufacturers as I can't see anyone turning down the offer of supplying engines to McLaren. After all McLaren and Red Bull are the two biggest 'independent' teams in f1 and neither are likely to have a problem paying the engine bill.

Surely if McLaren were to build an engine, they would wait a few years.

Get a supply of new engines from Ilmor and back engineer what Ilmor have. Considering McLaren have virtually no experience in building race engines, this might not be a bad idea if they eventually want to build their own.

They are absolutely not allowed to open up the engines, most likely. Mercedes isn't that dumb.

From what we've heard today, it sounds like the engine itself won't have many upgrades or performance benefits. They are very restricted on what they can do. All the benefits of a manufacturer will be with the recovery systems.

If McLaren decide to make their own system, they won't really experience the pains of being a customer team other than in the bank account.

I think that the recovery systems will be to closely integrated into the engine and its managment system to be going out on your own. Also, the cost would probably be prohibitive, since you'd already be paying for the base engine anyway.

Do we really think Ron's been left between a rock and a hard place here?
Somehow I doubt it.
Just because Eddie hasn't mouthed it doesn't mean there're no developments.

Surely if McLaren were to build an engine, they would wait a few years.

Get a supply of new engines from Ilmor and back engineer what Ilmor have. Considering McLaren have virtually no experience in building race engines, this might not be a bad idea if they eventually want to build their own.

McLaren guys do not have access to the engines leased to them by Mercedes HPP.
Mercedes HPP engineers and mechanics are seconded to the McLaren team to handle the engines.

Edited by Timstr11, 30 September 2012 - 07:11.

Maybe McLaren dont need to worry anymore

http://www.pitpass.c...says-Ecclestone


haha

by the time the engine fires up... Bernie is long gone (perhaps)

I really don't think that teams will accept not having first tier engines from 2014 onward even if they don't produce them they do pay for them so I don't think factory teams will have any benefit over the other teams.

Also I don't get the argument, McLaren cannot have Ferrari engines because Ferrari is a competitor ... but what is Mercedes ? it's absolutely the same thing ... its only politics, bad blood from the past or some other kind of interest that stands between McLaren and Ferrari ... nothing else.

So McLaren doesn't need to change its engines for several years and Bernie says there aren't any new engines coming in anyway. Does that make this thread redundant

Yes. There will only be 3 engines in 2014 - Merc; Ferrari and Renault. Nobody else is up to the technology challenge. They will be required to supply 4 teams each and will be well paid by Bernie for their trouble.

Yes. There will only be 3 engines in 2014 - Merc; Ferrari and Renault. Nobody else is up to the technology challenge. They will be required to supply 4 teams each and will be well paid by Bernie for their trouble.

Sounds sensible to me. I can see Bernie agreeing a deal with the manufacturers where they get paid some of the money lost on V6 development with more money going to the FIA. As I pointed out in the other thread, he has got too much to lose from the introduction of the V6 and that is what this is all about really. It would explain why he is saying that he will pay the FIA more money rather than rejecting the idea completely.

Honda has recently expressed interest in possibly returning to F1. They could make a nostalgic engine partner for Mclaren.

Sounds sensible to me. I can see Bernie agreeing a deal with the manufacturers where they get paid some of the money lost on V6 development with more money going to the FIA. As I pointed out in the other thread, he has got too much to lose from the introduction of the V6 and that is what this is all about really. It would explain why he is saying that he will pay the FIA more money rather than rejecting the idea completely.

last week cosworth announced that they may consider 2014 engine supply, and said that their version of V6 has been in the development for atleast 6 months (maybe simulation/mockups).

Honda has recently expressed interest in possibly returning to F1. They could make a nostalgic engine partner for Mclaren.

i doubt both in foreseeable future

Edited by loki0420, 10 October 2012 - 11:44.

Amazing gif F1ultimate !

Yes. There will only be 3 engines in 2014 - Merc; Ferrari and Renault. Nobody else is up to the technology challenge. They will be required to supply 4 teams each and will be well paid by Bernie for their trouble.

i seriously doubt bernie can stop the V6 turbo, and frankly i dont' see what's the fuss is about. i for one would love to see V6 turbo's(maybe i'm a engineer ). they represent some things that you get in the car that you can afford. also all the green crap is BS. it's pretty well known that turbo needs same/more fuel than NA ones (turbo needs power of exhaust gas,it's not free), it's not freaking diesel, so saving fuel is not the issue. i care less about sound, sound is generated by exhaust layout. 6 cylinder can produce the same noise as 8 one's, and i love the sound of turbo wastegates chirping. also in race, the driver boost management and same fuel for everyone should throw up new strategies and more variables.

also autosport did a feature on V6 turbos, and specially Renault wants it more than anyone, and seeing the amount of teams they supply engines to, i wouldn't be surprised if in 2014 50% of the teams choose renault over merc/ferrari. merc also keen on v6 as they've switched to more turbo V6's in their road cars. only ferrari seems not to like the idea, but honestly, apart from F1 heritage, ferrari is not representive of automotive world.

and not to forget, VW and Honda have expressed their desire to return to F1, i'd doubt they'll like V8's over turbo V6's. it's how marketing works, if u open a newspaper and saw a renault clio saying ''our car performance is developed from the same v6 turbo technology in F1'', rather '' our v6 turbo in megane is best cause we make the best NA V8 for RBR'' which would sell more cars???

Amazing gif F1ultimate !

You're welcome

anyone remember the 92 season where McLaren stood empty handed for 93 in terms of engines....

desperately trying to get renault engines for 93 (in exchange for a jet-deal with the french govt... what was that all about?) and then the chrysler engine test... a rebadged lamborgini v12... which senna actually liked.

then the 1994 debacle with blowing up peugeot engines. till mercedes came along and saved their asses in woking.

and not to forget, VW and Honda have expressed their desire to return to F1, i'd doubt they'll like V8's over turbo V6's. it's how marketing works, if u open a newspaper and saw a renault clio saying ''our car performance is developed from the same v6 turbo technology in F1'', rather '' our v6 turbo in megane is best cause we make the best NA V8 for RBR'' which would sell more cars???

VW spearheaded the i4 universal engine campaign with Mosley (via audi) then said thanks, but we 're not interested. Hence the V6s.

i doubt both in foreseeable future

I would like it! But I don't dislike Mercedes.

VW spearheaded the i4 universal engine campaign with Mosley (via audi) then said thanks, but we 're not interested. Hence the V6s.

actually i think VW of all the car brands has the most varied V6's in production(golf/passat/TT and A4/A7 audis). and never say never to L4 remember what BMW did with their M10 L4 TC ... 1000+HP

Edited by eronrules, 10 October 2012 - 13:28.

actually i think VW of all the car brands has the most varied V6's in production(golf/passat/TT and A4/A7 audis). and never say never to L4 remember what BMW did with their M10 L4 TC ... 1000+HP

THat's fascinating, but they still convinced Mosley to come up with the i4 universal engine thing then refused to commit to it so ...

THat's fascinating, but they still convinced Mosley to come up with the i4 universal engine thing then refused to commit to it so ...

how long i wonder, assume bernie keeps his grip on for say 5 more years, then what??? the world economy won't get better. these days, many motorsport adopting to 1.6L turbo engines, both WTCC and WRC/IRC/ERC uses 1.6L 4-pot TC engines. maybe F1 wont' go 4-pot but i see no problem really. people underestimate engineers, they shouldn't.

McLaren will stick with Mercedes power for 2013-2015 at least. That's the period the current customer deal is for. Like was posted a page back.

For 2016, who knows. McLaren might want to build their own engine, but I remember reading about the team finding that too big an investment. But things may change. Should the Mercedes deal end, perhaps McLaren could entice Honda, Porsche (or an other VW brand) to build them an engine. And they might even hold talks about such a deal.

Regarding the non-manufacturer engine suppliers not being up to the task: I believe Cosworth is fully up to the technological challenge, although financially they're not up to it. Remember, when Cosworth re-entered F1, they stated they needed 3 or 4 paying customers. They have 2 now, and apparently none for 2013 and beyond.

Honda has recently expressed interest in possibly returning to F1. They could make a nostalgic engine partner for Mclaren.

That's a fantastic gif F1ultimate Where did you get it from or did you create it yourself?

i seriously doubt bernie can stop the V6 turbo, and frankly i dont' see what's the fuss is about. i for one would love to see V6 turbo's(maybe i'm a engineer ). they represent some things that you get in the car that you can afford. also all the green crap is BS. it's pretty well known that turbo needs same/more fuel than NA ones (turbo needs power of exhaust gas,it's not free), it's not freaking diesel, so saving fuel is not the issue. i care less about sound, sound is generated by exhaust layout. 6 cylinder can produce the same noise as 8 one's, and i love the sound of turbo wastegates chirping. also in race, the driver boost management and same fuel for everyone should throw up new strategies and more variables.

That is a lot of wrong in one little paragraph.

There is a maximum fuel flow restriction of 100kg/hr above 10500rpm, which means efficiency is everything if you want more power so everyone will run their 8-speed gearbox engines in 10500-12000rpm range because lower speeds are more efficient.

Turbos are far more efficient, partly because they will be miller cycle with late inlet valve close for part filled cylinder (10% less fuel than non-miller = 10% more power in fuel flow restricted engine) and partly because they will run lean at max power.

In most IC engines maximum power at a given pressure limit is obtained at ~10% overfuelling (0.9 Lambda, 13:1 AF ratio) the only reason you ever go richer than that (as many so called high performance supercar turbos do) is to keep your turbine inlet and valve temperatures below temp limit, not because you need more turbine power (which you are almost always throwing away through the wastegate at peak power point anyway - the wastegate is only fully closed at <2000rpm on a road car turbo where you can't achieve peak torque and temperature isn't a problem). You also can't go lean in road cars as that stops your catalytic converter from working and is verboten.

But in these racing fuel flow restricted F1 V6s the electric motor linked turbo only needs to operate at one optimised speed, pressure and mass flow (about 0.5kg/s 2-2.5 bar boost for 2014 F1) - never a lag issue to deal with and probably no wastegate -so very little like conventional inefficient low inertia turbocharger turbines, more like a small Capstone Gas Turbines - (their C60 model minus the heat exchangers and combustor would actually be pretty close to perfect).

The inlet manifold pressure will be significantly higher than the exhaust manifold pressure so you get free scavenging air blowing through the engine during exhaust/inlet valve overlap, and that will also cools the valves and turbine slightly as well as contributing more power to the engine (induction stroke becomes a slight power stroke too).

The pre-Intercooler blow-off valve will dump to the Turbine inlet through an efficient low-loss low-noise faired poppet valve to recover some energy from the compressed air while maintaining compressor speed (if they are not trying to use it for downforce generation elsewhere), and letting the Intercooler cool off slightly, so probably won't ever hear a blow off valve in operation.

The engine will be running lean for highest efficiency/power while upping the boost to make that possible, and because Miller Cycle extracts more heat from the exhaust before it reaches the turbine and because proper cutting edge production turbines such as Audi S series use can run at 1050°C for the life of a car anyway (so don't require over-fuelling) they will not be worried about overheating the turbines in a race engine where they only need to last 10 hours.

With 6 cylinders and 12000rpm they will have half the frequency of 18000rpm V8s and with the more efficient and complete expansion of the Miller Cycle as well as with everything passing through an efficient turbine exhaust diffuser to extract max exhaust energy it means a big reduction in exhaust noise too. These engines will be potent, but not nearly the same level of sound as V8 NA.

Saved fuel = much lighter car with same power (perhaps 20-30% less fuel used with extra KERs and all that) = a big performance gain during race.

Amazing gif F1ultimate !

That's a fantastic gif F1ultimate Where did you get it from or did you create it yourself?

This is a few months old.

That is a lot of wrong in one little paragraph.

There is a maximum fuel flow restriction of 100kg/hr above 10500rpm, which means efficiency is everything if you want more power so everyone will run their 8-speed gearbox engines in 10500-12000rpm range because lower speeds are more efficient.

Turbos are far more efficient, partly because they will be miller cycle with late inlet valve close for part filled cylinder (10% less fuel than non-miller = 10% more power in fuel flow restricted engine) and partly because they will run lean at max power.

In most IC engines maximum power at a given pressure limit is obtained at ~10% overfuelling (0.9 Lambda, 13:1 AF ratio) the only reason you ever go richer than that (as many so called high performance supercar turbos do) is to keep your turbine inlet and valve temperatures below temp limit, not because you need more turbine power (which you are almost always throwing away through the wastegate at peak power point anyway - the wastegate is only fully closed at <2000rpm on a road car turbo where you can't achieve peak torque and temperature isn't a problem). You also can't go lean in road cars as that stops your catalytic converter from working and is verboten.

But in these racing fuel flow restricted F1 V6s the electric motor linked turbo only needs to operate at one optimised speed, pressure and mass flow (about 0.5kg/s 2-2.5 bar boost for 2014 F1) - never a lag issue to deal with and probably no wastegate -so very little like conventional inefficient low inertia turbocharger turbines, more like a small Capstone Gas Turbines - (their C60 model minus the heat exchangers and combustor would actually be pretty close to perfect).

The inlet manifold pressure will be significantly higher than the exhaust manifold pressure so you get free scavenging air blowing through the engine during exhaust/inlet valve overlap, and that will also cools the valves and turbine slightly as well as contributing more power to the engine (induction stroke becomes a slight power stroke too).

The pre-Intercooler blow-off valve will dump to the Turbine inlet through an efficient low-loss low-noise faired poppet valve to recover some energy from the compressed air while maintaining compressor speed (if they are not trying to use it for downforce generation elsewhere), and letting the Intercooler cool off slightly, so probably won't ever hear a blow off valve in operation.

The engine will be running lean for highest efficiency/power while upping the boost to make that possible, and because Miller Cycle extracts more heat from the exhaust before it reaches the turbine and because proper cutting edge production turbines such as Audi S series use can run at 1050°C for the life of a car anyway (so don't require over-fuelling) they will not be worried about overheating the turbines in a race engine where they only need to last 10 hours.

With 6 cylinders and 12000rpm they will have half the frequency of 18000rpm V8s and with the more efficient and complete expansion of the Miller Cycle as well as with everything passing through an efficient turbine exhaust diffuser to extract max exhaust energy it means a big reduction in exhaust noise too. These engines will be potent, but not nearly the same level of sound as V8 NA.

Saved fuel = much lighter car with same power (perhaps 20-30% less fuel used with extra KERs and all that) = a big performance gain during race.

i give up ... studied those thing 10 years ago, now almost forgotten ... but as i said, wait and see. i don't buy green peace BS. yes turbo will make cars more efficient and lower RPM and higher torque means less gear change, but with the teams constantly finding ways to create exhaust to use for coanda, engine maps will dominate turbo era, same way as today. i didn't know about electric motor turbo's in F1 V6's, 12000 rpm is still a lot and i don't think electric turbos will do the job, perhaps variable geometry will be used. also they may opt for WRC style anti-lag. i'm not sure that FIA has fixed boost pressure range yet.

Get a supply of new engines from Ilmor and back engineer what Ilmor have.

Considering Ilmor, which no longer exists, is wholly owned by Mercedes, I kind of doubt that could ever happen.