Fia helping Ferrari. So what's new?
New is that large tin foil hat on your head...
Posted 04 October 2012 - 14:50
Fia helping Ferrari. So what's new?
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Posted 04 October 2012 - 14:53
Fia helping Ferrari. So what's new?
Posted 04 October 2012 - 14:54
Comments like these sure aren't.Fia helping Ferrari. So what's new?
Marussia could have brought this up with the same result.I hope you are aware that the Fia holds which ever team's hand that influence stronger championship for ratings.
It exists in everything (sports, news, organisations, politics etc), it's the norm and there's nothing we can do about it except turn off the TV and walk away.
Let's just stick to the topic ok?
Edited by Seanspeed, 04 October 2012 - 14:55.
Posted 04 October 2012 - 15:22
I hope you are aware that the Fia holds which ever team's hand that influence stronger championship for ratings.
It exists in everything (sports, news, organisations, politics etc), it's the norm and there's nothing we can do about it except turn off the TV and walk away.
Let's just stick to the topic ok?
Posted 04 October 2012 - 18:05
Fia helping Ferrari. So what's new?
Posted 04 October 2012 - 18:12
Posted 04 October 2012 - 18:28
Is anybody asking why the FIA don't seem to be able to make a solid test for all these front wings?
How many times have they had to change their tests now? It's getting a little ridiculous that the teams keep finding ways around it and the FIA takes months to find a test that will stop them.
Posted 04 October 2012 - 19:25
If you have any ideas on a foolproof test please share them...
Posted 04 October 2012 - 19:31
If you have any ideas on a foolproof test please share them...
Edited by e34, 04 October 2012 - 19:32.
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Posted 04 October 2012 - 19:37
Posted 04 October 2012 - 20:24
Would that be yet another race win for Red Bull to be told they need to change the car afterwards?The original AMuS article didn't though. They said the FIA took offence in Singapore when RBR overdid it (again)
Posted 04 October 2012 - 20:27
Its really not that big a deal.it is a shame that in the pinnacle of motorsports teams are not able to mount a front wing in a way that does not tilt with increasing speed.
Posted 04 October 2012 - 20:52
If you have any ideas on a foolproof test please share them...
Posted 04 October 2012 - 21:36
Place standard FIA mandated distance sensors on wing, drive it one lap around a track at normal race speed during any practice session to get it approved. Only a certain amount of flex is allowed.If you have any ideas on a foolproof test please share them...
Edited by beancounter, 04 October 2012 - 21:45.
Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:48
Its really not that big a deal.
Posted 05 October 2012 - 06:31
Place standard FIA mandated distance sensors on wing
Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:10
There's no such thing, you 're confusing it with ride height sensors but they measure distance to the ground, flex is a different thing. The only way to measure flex is these dudes
Posted 05 October 2012 - 07:26
Walrus nose.....Shark fin.......octopus exhaust.......and now dolphin headThere's no such thing, you 're confusing it with ride height sensors but they measure distance to the ground, flex is a different thing. The only way to measure flex is these dudes
Posted 05 October 2012 - 13:43
There's no such thing, you 're confusing it with ride height sensors but they measure distance to the ground, flex is a different thing. The only way to measure flex is these dudes
Posted 05 October 2012 - 13:45
suspension is moving as well?I may be confused, but how is measuring flex so much different to ride height? If, say, the FW end plates are 5 cm from the ground in the pits and 1 cm at the end of a straight, can't this be measured by distance to the ground?
Posted 05 October 2012 - 14:00
Posted 05 October 2012 - 15:39
I may be confused, but how is measuring flex so much different to ride height? If, say, the FW end plates are 5 cm from the ground in the pits and 1 cm at the end of a straight, can't this be measured by distance to the ground?
Posted 05 October 2012 - 15:50
Don't forget MercGP's platypus from a couple of years back.Walrus nose.....Shark fin.......octopus exhaust.......and now dolphin head
Posted 05 October 2012 - 16:53
suspension is moving as well?
You also have to take into consideration bumps, camber of corners, elevation changes etc...which could skew the results.
Posted 05 October 2012 - 19:16
Posted 05 October 2012 - 23:44
Just put a whole bunch of sensors all over the car. Surely it would be possible to analyse the data and determine which parts were moving, and by how much, with relation to other parts.
Posted 06 October 2012 - 00:15
I may be confused, but how is measuring flex so much different to ride height? If, say, the FW end plates are 5 cm from the ground in the pits and 1 cm at the end of a straight, can't this be measured by distance to the ground?
Posted 06 October 2012 - 00:48
True, but isn't it the same when measuring ride height?
Posted 06 October 2012 - 01:16
No, there's suspension movement, tyre compression, road camber, kerbs, all those things influence the distance to the ground without actually meaning there is any flex in anything. A distance sensor for example will tell you there is flex on the left side of front wing in the picture below, but it's actually just road camber and load on the left side tyres/suspension. Same applies when running over kerbs etc (half the car on the kerb, half on the road, clearance is different)
There's no such thing, you 're confusing it with ride height sensors but they measure distance to the ground, flex is a different thing. The only way to measure flex is these dudes
FIA gave up trying to measure ride height, that's why they brought in the plank.
Edited by KnucklesAgain, 06 October 2012 - 01:20.
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Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:01
Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:06
No, there's suspension movement, tyre compression, road camber, kerbs, all those things influence the distance to the ground without actually meaning there is any flex in anything. A distance sensor for example will tell you there is flex on the left side of front wing in the picture below, but it's actually just road camber and load on the left side tyres/suspension. Same applies when running over kerbs etc (half the car on the kerb, half on the road, clearance is different)
Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:23
computer games developers 'map' the tracks through laser scanning/gyroscopics to reproduce the tracks in almost perfect detail.
Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:27
And the teams do it themselves (or have it done by someone) - probably in even higher detail - for their simulators.
Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:42
Yes I know all these things exist, but they also exist when measuring ride height, and after all it was you, not me, who said someone is measuring ride height with lasers:
So I don't understand why one would be able to measure ride height under the influence of suspension movement, tyre compression, road camber, and kerbs - but not wing flex.
That's what I thought until Engel talked about laser ride height sensors.
Not saying I think they should measure flex, but I would think that considering the technology involved in the world today - let alone F1 and other motorsports - they could easily develop software that would take into account readings from all sensors and track data such as camber/bumps etc and work out whether something is flexing or not. MotoGP uses GPS to alter the engine mapping based on what corner the bike is at, computer games developers 'map' the tracks through laser scanning/gyroscopics to reproduce the tracks in almost perfect detail. Hell, even almost 20 years ago F1 was using sensors to control active suspension systems on cars at full race speeds. Should the FIA want to it could be done...
Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:49
Posted 06 October 2012 - 02:56
for instance you could run lower tire pressures and fool the whole system into thinking your wing flexes too much..
There's a reason they don't directly regulate ride-height.
Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:05
That's interpreted. You want to filter sensor data though 10 different parameters to establish flex, and then use it to regulate. So the FIA at the end of the race has to run a simulation of say 70 laps worth of sensor data times 24 cars to establish if anybody's front wing is flexing.It's just silly. That's like using smoots to measure distance, sure it can be done but ... is there a point? If you want to measure flex you use tension sensors, that's the only accurate way to measure it.
Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:08
for instance you could run lower tire pressures and fool the whole system into thinking your wing flexes too much..
There's a reason they don't directly regulate ride-height.
a slow puncture would have the same effect. Or just changes in track temperature.
Edited by krapmeister, 06 October 2012 - 03:10.
Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:18
But they have sensors to read tire pressure so 'in theory' the flex measuring software could take that variable into account and allow for that in it's calculations...
Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:22
But they have sensors to read tire pressure so 'in theory' the flex measuring software could take that variable into account - same for track temp - and allow for that in it's calculations.
Not saying they should do it, just saying they could if they wanted to...
Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:32
ok then, what about fuel load? Ride-height is too dynamic compared to the track surface and whatever predictable measurements they can collect. That's why there's a plank under the car.
IMO it's not worth the effort to be so pro-active about flex, with the current static tests it prevents teams from doing really crazy things, and as long as the test is passed it's probably not worth making a shitstorm out of it..
Posted 06 October 2012 - 03:34
They could also dunk the cars in a giant water containers then measure the mass of water they displace. But instead they just use scales to weigh them.
Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:04
Not really a relevent comparison now is it?
Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:17
Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:38
yeah it is
you are dreaming up a scenario where the FIA employs 10 engineers to sit down and analyze tyre pressures, suspension loads, overlay gps tracks to account for variances due to different racing lines, factor in environmental changes and differing fuel loads to conclude whether a wing flexes. In a theoretical bulletin board situation sure, they can do all that and use military satellites to measure the car's rear wing dimensions, why not, it can be done, the CIA has analysts that do similar things. In practice it's the same thing as dunking cars in giant vats of water instead of using scales.
Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:40
That dolphin head thing is the only realistic way to do it, otherwise you measure against the track surface and you introduce all sorts of variables that are too fickle to be reliable.
You'd have to take in fuel load which means you need to know about precise fuel consumption from the moment the car gets going, you need to know exactly why the suspension deflects X amount at any given time... It's actually easier to turn **** to gold with alchemy than penalizing someone with that system.
Edited by krapmeister, 06 October 2012 - 04:42.
Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:50
Posted 06 October 2012 - 04:54
I'm not dreaming up anything of the sort - where did I say the FIA would be employing a team of engineers to pore over the data? I was suggesting that considering the amount of variables already monitored/measured, someone (the FIA, although perhaps using one of the teams ala McLaren and the common ECU) developing software that takes these into account to monitor for potential flexing of the front wing wasn't an impossible task. Can be mandated and perhaps tagged onto the common ecu. And IMO wouldn't be a hugely expensive undertaking either - no need for the hiring of military statelites and all that...
As for your dunkig cars in water analogy - if you're going to insist on using that you've got it the wrong way around. Why use scales when you can dunk cars in giant vats of water?
So do you think that an active suspension system wouldn't be workable on today's F1 cars then?
The dolphin head thing is certainly the easiest and cheapest way to do it, and is why the teams use it for testing.
Edited by engel, 06 October 2012 - 04:59.
Posted 06 October 2012 - 05:50
Teams use ride height sensors as a setup input, a way to establish the minimum clearance they need to not wear off the plank. My reply was to someone who suggested using the same sensors to measure flex from a regulatory point of view.
Edited by KnucklesAgain, 06 October 2012 - 05:51.
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Posted 06 October 2012 - 06:53