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Vettel reprimanded for Alonso incident [split]

Started by ferrarijon123 , Oct 06 2012 06:49

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286 replies to this topic

#101 Crossmax

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:33

@willbuxton: Tell you what, while we've got the drivers up in the stewards room, let's just decide the finishing order for the race and be done with it.

Not a bad idea...

#102 fisssssi

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:33

If he does lose 3 places, will he go back to 3rd or 4th? (Given Jenson's penalty)

#103 fabr68

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:34

If this Vettel was going slow on the racing line, a 5 spot penalty is what it has been applied over the last decade for something like this.

#104 awake27

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:34

It looks is going to be hard decision because probably in the telemetry it doesn't show that he lost time, depends though on what previous laps of Alonso you compare, I think though the S3 of Q3 time of Alonso was his fastest of the whole session. Or maybe it shows that Alonso did brake the same late and hard so they are having difficulty matching the visual with the telemetry thing.

#105 Lights

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:35

Do not forget Malaysia 2008, there is jurisdiction on this, the question here is if Vettel forced Alonso to take a less than ideal line, that picture doesn't suggest that as Vettel's car is apparently already past the turn-in point, but with the video would be easier to assess.

That doesn't mean Alonso wasn't forced to take a less than ideal line. The picture clearly suggests Alonso wasn't on the normal line because well, he couldn't.

#106 SamH123

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:37

If he does lose 3 places, will he go back to 3rd or 4th? (Given Jenson's penalty)

I believe the penalties are applied in the order they were received?
So that means Button's would be applied first but Vettel would still be 4th wouldn't he? (Button's spot wouldn't leave a gap, someone would fill it)

#107 sharo

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:40

Once it was called tough luck and the man who did the indisputably best lap deserves the pole. But when they punished Alonso because his car's farts disturbed Massa's run, the Pandora (****) box was open.
Only deliberate and blatant impeding must be punished.

#108 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:40

Taking forever

#109 Cenotaph

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:41

That doesn't mean Alonso wasn't forced to take a less than ideal line. The picture clearly suggests Alonso wasn't on the normal line because well, he couldn't.

Perhaps, the picture being so narrow doesn't help to see the corner, but I'm trying to assess it based on where drivers usually turn. They start right after the 50m mark which Alonso is already clearly past, however I get what you're saying, the way the Ferrari is positioned suggests Alonso is not fully committed yet.

#110 Crossmax

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:42

Taking forever

Quite. What the h are they up to?

#111 fabr68

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:42

Once it was called tough luck and the man who did the indisputably best lap deserves the pole. But when they punished Alonso because his car's farts disturbed Massa's run, the Pandora (****) box was open.
Only deliberate and blatant impeding must be punished.

You hit the nail on the head.

This is what got Alonso a 5 spot grid penalty

#112 dau

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:42

If this Vettel was going slow on the racing line, a 5 spot penalty is what it has been applied over the last decade for something like this.

Vergne got a 3-place penalty for doing the same, so it would be weird to see Vettel getting a 5-place grid drop. But do keep your hopes up.

#113 robefc

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:44

@willbuxton: Tell you what, while we've got the drivers up in the stewards room, let's just decide the finishing order for the race and be done with it.

Not a bad idea...

Everyone moans about this sort of thing, I hope Will has a good alternative solution because otherwise it's just carping for the sake of it

#114 Myrvold

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:44

I believe the penalties are applied in the order they were received?
So that means Button's would be applied first but Vettel would still be 4th wouldn't he? (Button's spot wouldn't leave a gap, someone would fill it)

You are correct.

#115 Jimisgod

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:45

so three places is 4th?

1. Webber - 2. Kobayashi
3. Grosjean - 4. Vettel?

#116 D.M.N.

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:45

Do not forget Malaysia 2008, there is jurisdiction on this, the question here is if Vettel forced Alonso to take a less than ideal line, that picture doesn't suggest that as Vettel's car is apparently already past the turn-in point, but with the video would be easier to assess.

You can see in the picture the lighter part of the track, which is the racing line, Alonso is on the edge of it and Vettel is trying to get off it.

#117 Cenotaph

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:45

You hit the nail on the head.

This is what got Alonso a 5 spot grid penalty

Actually it got his 3 best times annulled. you see, they were more creative with the penaltis back then

#118 Flamini

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:46

Quite. What the h are they up to?

Not a unanimous decision

#119 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:46

You hit the nail on the head.

This is what got Alonso a 5 spot grid penalty

Seeing that today it's clear that this is easily one of the worst stewarding decisions ever.

#120 Jackmancer

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:47

I don't think it matters, even with the penalty it'll be a Red Bull 1-2 and Webber might let Vettel win.

#121 fabr68

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:47

Actually it got his 3 best times annulled. you see, they were more creative with the penaltis back then

Good catch.

Like we old people say. New generations always have it better...

#122 GAZF1nut

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:48

so three places is 4th?

1. Webber - 2. Kobayashi
3. Grosjean - 4. Vettel?

That would be a very interesting grid!

#123 dau

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:48

Seeing that today it's clear that this is easily one of the worst stewarding decisions ever.

IIRC, it was regarded as such in 2006 as well.

#124 sailor

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:49

Ferrari International Assistance.

Maybe its time to rename that one .

Ferrari to be replaced with Fernando .

Its unbeleiavable with the amount of luck and decisions he has had this year.

#125 Jimisgod

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:50

You hit the nail on the head.

This is what got Alonso a 5 spot grid penalty

That has to be the worst decision ever. By that precedent, Vettel should have his super licence revoked.

#126 robefc

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:50

Maybe its time to rename that one .

Ferrari to be replaced with Fernando .

Its unbeleiavable with the amount of luck and decisions he has had this year.

yellow flag wasn't very lucky

#127 GAZF1nut

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:51

@Skysportsf1 Wait goes on. @tedkravitz tells @RachelBrookesTV that "nobody is expecting Vettel to be penalised...but let's wait and see"

#128 dau

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:51

Maybe its time to rename that one .

Ferrari to be replaced with Fernando .

Its unbeleiavable with the amount of luck and decisions he has had this year.

The yellow flag has ruined his hot lap. Also, there has been no decision as of yet, so maybe you should wait before proclaiming a Fernando International Assistance.

#129 awake27

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:53

Not a unanimous decision ;)

So they will do a 12 Angry Men or flip a coin? :lol:

Edited by awake27, 06 October 2012 - 08:53.

#130 Lights

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:55

If Vettel escapes this, he's the lucky one. That picture of his inlap and Alonso's hotlap tells everything.

#131 fabr68

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:55

Everyone moans about this sort of thing, I hope Will has a good alternative solution because otherwise it's just carping for the sake of it

If Formula 1 did not function the way it does, a lot of jobs for doing the moaning would be eliminated.

#132 fabr68

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:57

There must be a lot of crying and begging in the Stewards room at the moment.

#133 Cenotaph

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 08:58

just make the decision already... geez.

#134 hello86

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:02

Maybe they will first wait for the outcome of tomorrow´s race :cat:

#135 Crossmax

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:02

Maybe they'll announce the decision on the formation lap? Or even hand him a drive through during the race...

#136 nemtudom

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:04

I hate all these investigations and penalties after each and every qualifying session, it's been really annoying in the last few years. It wasn't really an issue before 2003 when we had the one-hour qualy with 12 laps per driver. OK, they had a whole hour to set their fastest time, but usually every driver went for it in the closing minutes - and there were 20+ cars on the track at the same time, not just 10. I'm sure there was plenty of impeding, but we didn't spend hours after every qualifying waiting for penalties and reading the drivers' complaints.

That said, some consistency from the stewards would be welcome, so if they find that Alonso's lap was compromised by Vettel slowing down, they should penalize him just like any other driver. But all in all, I wish they just stopped punishing drivers for impeding in qualy, unless it's deliberate or blatantly obvious.

#137 fisssssi

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:07

I don't think it matters, even with the penalty it'll be a Red Bull 1-2 and Webber might let Vettel win.

Not a chance in hell. You don't know Australians, mate.

#138 sharo

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:08

Can you imagine if the old 1 hour/12lap format was still applied. With today's trend for complaining and punishing everything we wouldn't know the starting grid until the formation lap.

#139 Wheels23

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:09

I hope not although it does help Mark and Fernando.

How long as this investigation been investigated for?

#140 SamH123

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:09

Not a chance in hell. You don't know Australians, mate.

True he won't want to

But you wouldn't be surprised to see a slow pit stop or similar

#141 sharo

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:10

Not a chance in hell. You don't know Australians, mate.

perhaps. But the Austrians do know them well IMO

#142 908T

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:10

Not a chance in hell. You don't know Australians, mate.

If the team wants it, they can always fix it with a bad pitstop.

#143 Myrvold

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:11

Can you imagine if the old 1 hour/12lap format was still applied. With today's trend for complaining and punishing everything we wouldn't know the starting grid until the formation lap.

Was it such big problems before? I don't remember it that way.

#144 apoka

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:11

Probably he did slightly impede him by not getting off the racing line fast enough (there must have been quite some speed difference between a hotlap and a "save your tyres" lap). But I guess (without videos we don't know) that he made a good effort not to impede Alonso and, therefore, the effect on Alonso's laptime was minimal. So, it could be that the stewards just ask themselves whether there is a minimum of time lost to warrant a penalty.

Btw. when using the same standards for Q1 and Q2, there surely must be more investigations? Schumacher blocked someone, there was quite some handwaving going on etc. I often have the feeling those investigations (not even the penalties) are applied quite selectively and inconsistently.

#145 D.M.N.

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:12

Sky Sports News have just shown the footage, Vettel was definitely on the racing line heading into the chicane. He didn't turn in at the same time as usual, instead turning in a bit later and running over white strip to let Alonso through.

#146 Crossmax

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Posted 06 October 2012 - 09:12

This is getting quite ridiculous... It's as if the stewards think nobody is interested in the aftermath, and that they can take all the time they want. How bloody difficult can it be?