Should McLaren Have Signed Raikkonen Instead...

I agree.

Fixed it. I did not say anything else.

Thank god he is not. I much prefer have him driving the car instead

Exactly my thoughts

I don't think Perez will ever go to Ferrari. You just don't sign for McLaren planning to go to Ferrari later, he's not commited to Ferrari anymore.

if he can prove he is another raikkonen in the making, why not??? alonso did it, so did raikkonen ... ferrari doesn't bother about loyalty... if a driver is good, 'for sure' they'll go for him. in a way it's a blessing for ferrari cause now they can judge cheko's performance in a good car and when mclaren hits one of their bad seasons, they'll snatch perez ... ferrari can always make the biggest offers to lure any driver away from any team ... next is vettel

Edited by eronrules, 16 October 2012 - 17:40.

I am curious as to what you think are qualities of a driver which would qualify him/her as a leader in this context?

Me too...

I think some of you are underestimating McLaren's next year driver lineup.
Button is the guy who has equalled Hamilton's results for the last 3 years. If we only take account of the Pirelli years he's ahead of Lewis in the scoreboard.
And Perez is a 22 year old guy with an amazing future ahead of him. I think he's gonna be World Champion one day.
Sure, Raikkonen is a great driver, but he's already driven for McLaren and it didn't end well, I don't think a second part would work out.
I find Hulkenberg and Di Resta a bit overrated. None of them is beating the other convincingly this season and in the past they were beaten by Barrichello and Sutil, respectively.

how the hell is button a reliable result maker?
He is the most inconsistent driver from the top4 teams...

Sometimes he misses q3 for no real reason, sometimes he cruises around in position 15 for no good reason.
he finished outside the points 4 times without suffering any major problems that were out of his own hands.
Complete contrast to Hamilton, who finished every race he finished in the points, not to mention that he suffered more real retirements and still is considerably ahead than button.(no I dont count driving around in 14th position and then giving up shortly before race end as a real retirement, sry button)

2010 was more or less the same, 2011 was great, 2012 shitty again.
this happens, as I said already, also in a race to race basis...


button is not someone you should rely on, Kimi on the other hand is sitting in a position where he and the car he is driving have no business to be, solely because he was more reliable and consistent than the guys behind him.(maybe exclude hamilton, as all of his 4 retirements were no fault of his own)

if he can prove he is another raikkonen in the making, why not??? alonso did it, so did raikkonen ... ferrari doesn't bother about loyalty... if a driver is good, 'for sure' they'll go for him. in a way it's a blessing for ferrari cause now they can judge cheko's performance in a good car and when mclaren hits one of their bad seasons, they'll snatch perez ... ferrari can always make the biggest offers to lure any driver away from any team ... next is vettel

Sure, it can happen, but nobody is planning on it right now and is not likely either. Alonso and Raikkonen only went to Ferrari after having an awful relationship with Ron Dennis. In fact, Alonso's childhood dream was to drive for McLaren.

Kimi would have been a much better option, much much better in fact.

I think some of you are underestimating McLaren's next year driver lineup.
Button is the guy who has equalled Hamilton's results for the last 3 years.........

no one who is a fan of F1 is underestimating mclaren, we know what button did/achieved in his mclaren stint. but ...

1. hamilton was always the best qualifier in the team ... can jenson/perez do that as consistently as him??

2. hamilton can drive the bolts out of a car, good or bad. his 2009 season is a testament of what he can achieve in a bad car. now 2nd part of 2009 is also a testament of how button can **** things up in a good car against his team mate.

3.perez is a good driver ... but if we look at his podiums, they've come as a result of whacky team strategies, also like button, the question mark is on his qualifying

4.the most importatnt point is ... the pirelli tire, earlier when the tire was introduced, i'd say button scored favorably against lewis, so did perez for that matter, but that advantage is dwindling race by race, teams have much better idea on tires these days and pirelli is making the compound more durable and closer. looking at this season, the car that's most gentel to its tires IMO is not sauber but actually ferrari, alonso's podiums and victories came cause he was able to managae tire better. also LotusF1 is very good on tire and as we've seen from last couple of races, RBR has found the way to extract the best out of Pirelli's as well. so there goes 'tire saving' advantage out the exhaust.

bottom line is, we don't know what'll happen next year. but the cars will be same as this year. RBR has already sailed passed other teams in terms of speed and both Lotusf1 and Ferrari are on par, with mclaren ATM. so mclaren will probably end the season with joint 2nd tier team compared to RBR.

Edited by eronrules, 16 October 2012 - 18:09.

how the hell is button a reliable result maker?
He is the most inconsistent driver from the top4 teams...

Stopped reading here. Massa, Webber and Grosjean (as I assume you're including Lotus as a top 4 team) are far more inconsistent than Button.

Edited by TheUltimateWorrier, 16 October 2012 - 18:17.

Stopped reading here, as you're just trolling Button fans. Massa, Webber and Grosjean (as I assume you're including Lotus as a top 4 team) are far more inconsistent than Button.

Ahem ..... the proof is in the pudding ... or in this case in charts .... see for yourself buttons performance against kimi's

it the charts area, select JB against KR or whomever you want and see the performance

http://www.f1fanatic...ionship-points/

p.s yes we think lotusF1 is a top 4 if not top 3 team in 2012 F1 season

no one who is a fan of F1 is underestimating mclaren, we know what button did/achieved in his mclaren stint. but ...

1. hamilton was always the best qualifier in the team ... can jenson/perez do that as consistently as him??

2. hamilton can drive the bolts out of a car, good or bad. his 2009 season is a testament of what he can achieve in a bad car. now 2nd part of 2009 is also a testament of how button can **** things up in a good car against his team mate.

3.perez is a good driver ... but if we look at his podiums, they've come as a result of whacky team strategies, also like button, the question mark is on his qualifying

4.the most importatnt point is ... the pirelli tire, earlier when the tire was introduced, i'd say button scored favorably against lewis, so did perez for that matter, but that advantage is dwindling race by race, teams have much better idea on tires these days and pirelli is making the compound more durable and closer. looking at this season, the car that's most gentel to its tires IMO is not sauber but actually ferrari, alonso's podiums and victories came cause he was able to managae tire better. also LotusF1 is very good on tire and as we've seen from last couple of races, RBR has found the way to extract the best out of Pirelli's as well. so there goes 'tire saving' advantage out the exhaust.

bottom line is, we don't know what'll happen next year. but the cars will be same as this year. RBR has already sailed passed other teams in terms of speed and both Lotusf1 and Ferrari are on par, with mclaren ATM. so mclaren will probably end the season with joint 2nd tier team compared to RBR.

1. Points are not awarded in qualifying, but in the race. Each driver has his strengths and his weaknesses, Button is stronger in the race than in qualifying, Hamilton the other way round. Both can achieve great results if they perform well, they just have different styles. Thing is this F1 with no refueling suits Button particularly well.

2. If Hamilton is that good and Button ****s things up so often, how come doesn't Hamilton trash him in the points table every season?

3. Perez makes those strategies work. Are you telling me the other teams' engineers are dumb and Sauber's are much smarter than them? This is a typical case of double standards, if Alonso or Button achieve a great result with a clever strategy they are God, if Perez does he has no merit.

4. I agree with you, teams are understanding Pirelli better now. But it doesn't seem to be helping Hamilton, he seems as lost as before. Hamilton just lacks the ability of strategic thinking. He was confortable in the refueling era, when he just had to drive to the maximum and that's it. Nowadays drivers are constantly pacing themselves and Hamilton has no clue about how to do it. That's why he struggles to beat Button on points, otherwise he's much faster than him, you can't compare them on raw speed.

Edited by MrMontecarlo, 16 October 2012 - 18:30.

1. Points are not awarded in qualifying, but in the race. Each driver has his strengths and his weaknesses, Button is stronger in the race than in qualifying, Hamilton the other way round. Both can achieve great results if they perform well, they just have different styles. Thing is this F1 with no refueling suits Button particularly well.

2. If Hamilton is that good and Button ****s things up so often, how come doesn't Hamilton trash him in the points table every season?

3. Perez makes those strategies work. Are you telling me the other teams' engineers are dumb and Sauber's are much smarter than them? This is a typical case of double standards, if Alonso or Button achieve a great result with a clever strategy they are God, if Perez does he has no merit.

4. I agree with you, teams are understanding Pirelli better now. But it doesn't seem to be helping Hamilton, he seems as lost as before. Hamilton just lacks the ability of strategic thinking. He was confortable in the refueling era, when he just had to drive to the maximum and that's it. Nowadays drivers are constantly pacing themselves and Hamilton has no clue about how to do it. That's why he struggles to beat Button on points, otherwise he's much faster than him, you can't compare them on raw speed.

1. yes no points in Qualifying, but how oftern do we see button do a perez from back of the grid??? and if we talk about consistency in race, then kimi and alonso will win that contest, not button/perez

2. how many times this season has mclaren ****ed up lewis's pit stops??? and a have lewis really suffered in any race form pure tire deg rather than something going in the back 'kaput' ??? i don't seem to remember, in fact lewis has managed his tires pretty well.

3. you are right as well, but that was in the first half of the season, now team strategies are tightly packed together and that advantage for perez has diminished a bit. also a team like mclaren will not go for those strategies , so we'll have to see if perez can lead in the front

4. see 2

i don't expect you to agree as these are just my personal observation ... but i'd say they contain some truth in them none the less.

I still think Kimi will end up at Mercedes. Haug loves him. Plus the performance clauses were met by both team and driver at Lotus.
As far as the Perez to McLaren question, they [McL] must see something in Sergio to sign him.And not just sponsor money.He's had a decent year and showed flashes of a top tier worthy drive.They will have him in the simulator all winter honning his skills. Only time will tell.....

I still think Kimi will end up at Mercedes. Haug loves him. Plus the performance clauses were met by both team and driver at Lotus.

no chance, unless mercedes farts out race winning (or on par with lotusF1) cars, kimi won't go there, and if they do produce good cars, then no reason to sack rosberg/lewis in next 5 years, so no go. only good team left for kimi is RBR when and if they replace wibbah with kimsta.

As far as the Perez to McLaren question, they [McL] must see something in Sergio to sign him.And not just sponsor money.He's had a decent year and showed flashes of a top tier worthy drive.They will have him in the simulator all winter honning his skills. Only time will tell.....

we'll wait and see if perez-2013 is kimi-2002


p.s i think Mikael akerfeldt is better than both mustaine and slasher

1. yes no points in Qualifying, but how oftern do we see button do a perez from back of the grid??? and if we talk about consistency in race, then kimi and alonso will win that contest, not button/perez

2. how many times this season has mclaren ****ed up lewis's pit stops??? and a have lewis really suffered in any race form pure tire deg rather than something going in the back 'kaput' ??? i don't seem to remember, in fact lewis has managed his tires pretty well.

3. you are right as well, but that was in the first half of the season, now team strategies are tightly packed together and that advantage for perez has diminished a bit. also a team like mclaren will not go for those strategies , so we'll have to see if perez can lead in the front ;)

4. see 2

i don't expect you to agree as these are just my personal observation ... but i'd say they contain some truth in them none the less.

They contain truth in them yeah, not much to add
We'll see how Perez performs next year. In my opinion if he matches Button's performance we could call it a good first year in McLaren.

Ahem ..... the proof is in the pudding ... or in this case in charts .... see for yourself buttons performance against kimi's

it the charts area, select JB against KR or whomever you want and see the performance ;)

http://www.f1fanatic...ionship-points/

p.s yes we think lotusF1 is a top 4 if not top 3 team in 2012 F1 season

I'm not denying Kimi isn't an excellent driver and has been the most consistent driver this season. But Button is an excellent driver too, and has had an appalling season for first time since 2008. A driver who scores 61 points out of a possible 65, and continues to score points in all but one race during his championship year isn't inconsistent, so my point still stands;

how the hell is button a reliable result maker?
He is the most inconsistent driver from the top4 teams...

Massa, Webber and Grosjean (as I assume you're including Lotus as a top 4 team) are far more inconsistent than Button.

Edited by TheUltimateWorrier, 16 October 2012 - 19:04.

no chance, unless mercedes farts out race winning (or on par with lotusF1) cars, kimi won't go there, and if they do produce good cars, then no reason to sack rosberg/lewis in next 5 years, so no go. only good team left for kimi is RBR when and if they replace wibbah with kimsta. :

p.s i think Mikael akerfeldt is better than both mustaine and slasher

If Nico flames out vs. Hamilton, Norbert just might give Kimi a call this time next year.

Is Akerfeldt better than Buckethead???

Edited by InSearchOfThe, 16 October 2012 - 19:06.

Is Akerfeldt better than Buckethead???

As a guitar player, no. As a musician, perhaps.

If Nico flames out vs. Hamilton, Norbert just might give Kimi a call this time next year.

Is Akerfeldt better than Buckethead???

interms of musical talent (lyric+music+vocal ) ... hell yes (fanboy logic ), in terms of craft ... maybe not, but certainly there are many others, specially new breeds like Misha Mansoor and particularly Toshin Abasi of 'Animals as leaders'

interms of musical talent (lyric+music+vocal ) ... hell yes (fanboy logic ), in terms of craft ... maybe not, but certainly there are many others, specially new breeds like Misha Mansoor and particularly Toshin Abasi of 'Animals as leaders'

Music, like art, is in the eyes/ears of the beholder.How many Buckethead cds do you have? I have over 50.....

but i'd say they contain some truth in them none the less.

I agree. You spelled the names right, all of them, if I remember correctly.

Next year will be the first time, since i've followed the sport in 1998, that McLaren, to me, doesn't have that special aura anymore. That monolithic beast of a team that would always have a top 3, exciting driver. I thought Lewis was Rons' boy and would be the guy that jealous chiefs at Ferrari would spend years trying to pry away. Then Whitmarsh and Button came along, then Lewis went to Merc in a very damp-squibish move....hmm I dunno it's probably nostalgia to be fair.

Next year will be the first time, since i've followed the sport in 1998, that McLaren, to me, doesn't have that special aura anymore. That monolithic beast of a team that would always have a top 3, exciting driver.

Good point.

I dare to say Button/Perez is the worst McLaren line-up since 1981.
Which doesn´t mean JB/SP are bad.

Edited by LiJu914, 16 October 2012 - 23:51.

Good point.

I dare to say Button/Perez is the worst McLaren line-up since 1981.
Which doesn´t mean JB/SP are bad.

Yerp.

Q3 is going to be spectator sport for Mclaren now. Macca fans prepare to be underwhelmed, unless the '28 is a bullet proof rocket-ship.

JB will be sticking to Mclaren for a long time, Perez has a multi year contract. So any hopes of any changes in their line up in 2014 or 2015 may not be possible. Its a good line up but not great.

Kimi likes Lotus for now, 2013 may be another good year for them, so there is nothing mclaren can offer him, maybe race wins but Lotus is almost there.

Edited by ViMaMo, 17 October 2012 - 01:08.

I am mystified by recent developments at McLaren, and Ferrari too for that matter (but that's another story). McLaren have suffered from inconsistent pit work and an unreliable car, now they choose to replace Hamilton with Perez??? Even Ferrari passed him by in order to re-sign Massa. Red Bull is looking pretty strong for four in a row in the WCC at this point.

Good point.

I dare to say Button/Perez is the worst McLaren line-up since 1981.
Which doesn´t mean JB/SP are bad.

I'd say their '94 and '95 lineups were a little worse.

In '94, Mika was a young, talented, but unproven driver, still 3 seasons away from his maiden win. Brundle was a talented, if unspectacular driver in F1.
In '95, Mika had shown a lot of promise the previous year with 6 podiums in a mediocre car. Nigel was a World Champ on paper, but he did poorly in his two races that year. Blundell was promising, but unproven.

In hindsight, having Mika in the car makes it sound like a great lineup, but at the time it was nothing to be excited about.

My bet is that Perez will bring Telmex money when Vodafone finish with McLaren at end of 2013.

Gutierrez (sp?) will keep Telmex money at Sauber until then.

In life, always follow the money.

Paul

If Nico flames out vs. Hamilton, Norbert just might give Kimi a call this time next year.

Is Akerfeldt better than Buckethead???

Heyy..What u have now was my signature in this forum for a good year..lol

Buckethead>>>>>>>>>>>>everyone else..

Edited by grunge, 17 October 2012 - 05:14.

I'd say their '94 and '95 lineups were a little worse.

In '94, Mika was a young, talented, but unproven driver, still 3 seasons away from his maiden win. Brundle was a talented, if unspectacular driver in F1.
In '95, Mika had shown a lot of promise the previous year with 6 podiums in a mediocre car. Nigel was a World Champ on paper, but he did poorly in his two races that year. Blundell was promising, but unproven.

In hindsight, having Mika in the car makes it sound like a great lineup, but at the time it was nothing to be excited about.

Yes, exactly. McLaren have employed quite a few drivers from the 'they also served' category - Berger, Watson, Johannson, Coulthard etc. At worst Perez may turn out to be one of these (although they all won GPs) and at best may turn out like Mika or even better. And they have their customary WDC driver in Button. I think this is great line-up for 2013 and will allow a bit of a rest from the turmoil of the Hamilton years. I expect both drivers to win races in 2013.

I'd say their '94 and '95 lineups were a little worse.

In '94, Mika was a young, talented, but unproven driver, still 3 seasons away from his maiden win. Brundle was a talented, if unspectacular driver in F1.
In '95, Mika had shown a lot of promise the previous year with 6 podiums in a mediocre car. Nigel was a World Champ on paper, but he did poorly in his two races that year. Blundell was promising, but unproven.

In hindsight, having Mika in the car makes it sound like a great lineup, but at the time it was nothing to be excited about.

Hmm, don´t agree, even though it were bitter years for McLaren - but that was of course due to the car.

Mika already impressed against Senna after he took over Andrettis seat in 93 - and he dominated Brundle completely. It was not quite as dominant as MSC dominated Brundle in 92, but it was pretty similar. So i think his speed was already there at that time.

You might have a point regarding the No.2 though. But if i had to choose, i would prefer a 10/10-driver and a 6/10-driver over a 9/10 and a 8/10 driver.

but putting aside all jokes ... can anyone here imagine Kimi doing an epidose of TOONED ???

Absolutely, I would see him in the Kenny role with Jenson shouting "OMG - they killed Kimi!"

Music, like art, is in the eyes/ears of the beholder.How many Buckethead cds do you have? I have over 50.....

Isn't Buckethead the chap that was raised in a chicken coop that plays some mean guitar?

I like him.

KR is fast.

KR's motivation can drop off equally fast though....

KR's motivation can drop off equally fast though....

An assessment that many people, including some "experts", will have to revise after this season, and even more after the next

Edited by Jovanotti, 17 October 2012 - 14:28.

Mika already impressed against Senna after he took over Andrettis seat in 93 - and he dominated Brundle completely. It was not quite as dominant as MSC dominated Brundle in 92, but it was pretty similar. So i think his speed was already there at that time.

In hindsight the speed was there, but at the beginning of the year, we didn't know that he would dominate Brundle completely. At that time he had two years in the Lotus (that in his second year was relatively at the same level as the Sauber this year compared to the rest of the field), and 3 races in a McLaren (after testing the McLaren for the entire year). He was essentially in the same position as Perez is now. Showing a lot of promise, but without a real benchmark to compare to. Even in hindsight, Mika was still learning and growing as a racer, and he wasn't a 10/10 yet.

KR is fast.

KR's motivation can drop off equally fast though....

and his motivation to work for a very "corporate" entity like McLaren again would be zero.

Even in hindsight, Mika was still learning and growing as a racer, and he wasn't a 10/10 yet.

I remember him qualifying into front row in Monaco or something and the Finnish reporters going apeshit over his success. During race day he did a Grosjean, crashed himself and several other cars out in turn one and promptly got himself banned for a race or something similar too. Yeah, he wasn't exactly at his prime yet

Edited by Force Ten, 17 October 2012 - 14:59.

In hindsight the speed was there, but at the beginning of the year, we didn't know that he would dominate Brundle completely. At that time he had two years in the Lotus (that in his second year was relatively at the same level as the Sauber this year compared to the rest of the field), and 3 races in a McLaren (after testing the McLaren for the entire year). He was essentially in the same position as Perez is now. Showing a lot of promise, but without a real benchmark to compare to. Even in hindsight, Mika was still learning and growing as a racer, and he wasn't a 10/10 yet.

You´re certainly right, that we just saw Hakkinen´s abilities in hindsight and that the same might happen with Perez. But my comment implied that it won´t turn out that way in Perez´case. (that´s of course just my opinion and i could easily be wrong about that).

You´re certainly right, that we just saw Hakkinen´s abilities in hindsight and that the same might happen with Perez. But my comment implied that it won´t turn out that way in Perez´case. (that´s of course just my opinion and i could easily be wrong about that).

We saw the same thing with Räikkönen aswell. Anything could happen. A lot of people were of the opinion that Button paired Hamilton will have made Kovalainen look good. People predict wrong. Most of the time.

We saw the same thing with Räikkönen aswell. Anything could happen. A lot of people were of the opinion that Button paired Hamilton will have made Kovalainen look good. People predict wrong. Most of the time.

kovalainen ??? care to explain??

KR is fast.

KR's motivation can drop off equally fast though....

so far, the people who are actually in the racing business like whitmarsh, domenicalli, lieberer, slade etc etc etc have all said at some point or other that there is nothing wrong with his MOTIVATION ... it's all media bullcrap. so put a lid on it.

kovalainen ??? care to explain??

Read for yourself.

Next year will be the first time, since i've followed the sport in 1998, that McLaren, to me, doesn't have that special aura anymore. That monolithic beast of a team that would always have a top 3, exciting driver.

I think that not only is it possibly as good as their 2008 line up as a pair, but that also 2013 may well show that you don't need the strongest line up on paper to be successful.

Next year will be the first time, since i've followed the sport in 1998, that McLaren, to me, doesn't have that special aura anymore. That monolithic beast of a team that would always have a top 3, exciting driver.

I think that not only is it possibly as good as their 2008 line up as a pair, but that also 2013 may well show that you don't need the strongest line up on paper to be successful.

Next year will be the first time, since i've followed the sport in 1998, that McLaren, to me, doesn't have that special aura anymore. That monolithic beast of a team that would always have a top 3, exciting driver.

I think that not only is it possibly as good as their 2008 line up as a pair, but that also 2013 may well show that you don't need the strongest line up on paper to be successful.

Next year will be the first time, since i've followed the sport in 1998, that McLaren, to me, doesn't have that special aura anymore. That monolithic beast of a team that would always have a top 3, exciting driver.

I think that not only is it possibly as good as their 2008 line up as a pair, but that also 2013 may well show that you don't need the strongest line up on paper to be successful.

btw, i was looking for this article i read way back in kimi's first test with lotusf1, this is an article i saw in f1bias.com made by 'wrcva' (hello )who painstakingly analyzed the relation between kimi and ferrari (specifically LDM and santander ) from the begining of 2008, throughout 2009. i hope this article will shed some light on such issues as

1. why massa outperformed kimi
2. so called 'motivation' issues of kimi
3. the rift between LDM and kimi
4. schumi's role
5. santander money role ...

i know many will not agree with it ... but give it a read, it's a bit long but i think legit

http://f1bias.com/2012/04/05/truth-about-kimi-ferrari-santander-2008/

Edited by eronrules, 17 October 2012 - 19:34.

Read for yourself.

Incredible, that really shows how much people underestimate and underrate Button. But then again, I'm not surprised given comments on this thread saying he's more inconsistent than the likes of Kimi, Grosjean, Webber and Massa .