Lance Armstrong
#101
Posted 10 November 2012 - 15:00
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#102
Posted 10 November 2012 - 19:40
Actually, that's what my post said (business recognition aside) - their feats are utterly irrelevant. As has been pointed out numerous times on this forum, road cars contain more technology than an F1 car hence my inclusion of "developments". Special track shoes or swim suits shave .001 seconds per lap provide no benefit to anyone not participating in the aforementioned spectacles - there is no transfer to daily life.
Edited by Canuck, 10 November 2012 - 19:49.
#103
Posted 25 November 2012 - 10:58
#104
Posted 25 November 2012 - 11:35
If it was a conspiracy, then it wasn't a very good one. Armstrong first slipped up when he admitted to doping in front of another cyclist's wife while in the hospital.Come to think about it, is there any tangible evidence that Armstrong had cancer in the first place, or was it just a time-out to get doped-up?
#105
Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:08
#106
Posted 27 November 2012 - 18:05
Come to think about it, is there any tangible evidence that Armstrong had cancer in the first place, or was it just a time-out to get doped-up?
The entire point of the deal is that he was on all sorts of drugs _while_ competing.
#107
Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:17
Well, that could be part of conspiracy. You can't see his scrotum on any of the photos of him that we know of. Was he hiding something?And considering the (alleged) cost of one testicle, I think that's a price nobody is willing to pay for the sake of creating a doping environment.
#108
Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:19
#109
Posted 05 January 2013 - 17:47
If the rumours come to frution it mght be the step needed to fully peal back drug use at the top end of cycling.
Keep the news flowing as it might unfold.
Regards
#110
Posted 06 January 2013 - 14:07
#111
Posted 06 January 2013 - 19:44
#112
Posted 07 January 2013 - 13:23
Ben
#113
Posted 09 January 2013 - 17:02
Well, that is the prescribed path for these cases. 1) Heartfelt and tearstained confessional on a Very Special Episode of Oprah or Ellen, then 2) the rounds of the evening talk shows to speak frankly and openly (and ad nauseum) about one's human frailties, then 3) a few turns on situation comedies playing oneself in self-deprecating roman a clef, etc, Then 4) a book, and 5) a book tour. Viola, full rehabilitation into one who can guest star on Iron Chef or Celebrity Apprentice with head held high.
Note that each one of these steps pays quite well. There's big money in sin, fall, and redemption.
#114
Posted 09 January 2013 - 17:50
----------------------------------------------------
Anquetil took a forthright and controversial stand on the use of performance-enhancing drugs. He never hid that he took drugs and in a debate with a government minister on French television said only a fool would imagine it was possible to ride Bordeaux–Paris on just water.
He and other cyclists had to ride through "the cold, through heatwaves, in the rain and in the mountains", and they had the right to treat themselves as they wished, he said in a television interview, before adding:
“ "Leave me in peace; everybody takes dope." ”
There was implied acceptance of doping right to the top of the state: the president, Charles de Gaulle, said of Anquetil:
“ "Doping? What doping? Did he or did he not make them play the Marseillaise [the national anthem] abroad?" ”
#115
Posted 09 January 2013 - 17:56
He didn't just cheat - the man bullied and threatened people as a regular course of action. His actions are not those of a hero. Period.
And on several occasions he used his fight with cancer as a way to plead his innocence. How low can you go!
#116
Posted 09 January 2013 - 18:02
Vive le General.There was implied acceptance of doping right to the top of the state: the president, Charles de Gaulle, said of Anquetil:
“ "Doping? What doping? Did he or did he not make them play the Marseillaise [the national anthem] abroad?" ”
#117
Posted 09 January 2013 - 18:23
#118
Posted 09 January 2013 - 21:21
So he's going on Oprah, eh.
Well, that is the prescribed path for these cases. 1) Heartfelt and tearstained confessional on a Very Special Episode of Oprah or Ellen, then 2) the rounds of the evening talk shows to speak frankly and openly (and ad nauseum) about one's human frailties, then 3) a few turns on situation comedies playing oneself in self-deprecating roman a clef, etc, Then 4) a book, and 5) a book tour. Viola, full rehabilitation into one who can guest star on Iron Chef or Celebrity Apprentice with head held high.
Note that each one of these steps pays quite well. There's big money in sin, fall, and redemption.
Yep. He's probably more famous than at any time prior. If his agency can't monetize that, he should shop around for new help.
#119
Posted 10 January 2013 - 14:14
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#120
Posted 10 January 2013 - 16:00
#121
Posted 10 January 2013 - 17:43
#122
Posted 11 January 2013 - 03:18
He has two choices here - admit what everyone now knows to be true, taking his legal and financial lumps and with suitable marketing savvy, come out of it reborn an every-man, boy-next-door redeemed hero, pocketing new lumps of gold as goes. Or...he can continue to deny what every court is likely to find him guilty of, take his legal and financial lumps and come out a bitter, twisted, financially and socially broken man.
What won't change? Lance Armstrong. In it to win, never give up, never say die. He can't beat the doping battle so win the PR war. The choice of Oprah should say everything about who he's trying to win over.
#123
Posted 16 January 2013 - 23:05
#124
Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:29
#125
Posted 18 January 2013 - 03:45
#126
Posted 18 January 2013 - 06:16
Lance is one creepy sociopath.Well, what do you think of part 1 of the interview?
#127
Posted 18 January 2013 - 18:28
That's the result of the win at any cost and winning is everything mentality.Lance is one creepy sociopath.
#128
Posted 18 January 2013 - 18:37
Well, what do you think of part 1 of the interview?
Meh. It didn't really say much that wasn't already out there.
When you're on the world stage, you're not involved in sport. You're at war. There's a marked difference. He went to war with anyone that got in the way. There really should not be any question as to why. If he didn't have that mindset he would not have won the races. I've taken a glimpse as what it takes to compete at reasonable amateur level in bicycle racing. It's crazy hard and all consuming. I suppose I'm prone to taking racing pretty serious, but anything outside of cars I do strictly as entertainment. It's tough to race a bike as entertainment. To do it on the level that Lance did would, by definition, be all consuming.
It's like like someone talking about George Patton being an asshole. Of course he was an asshole! In either case, they wouldn't have been successful any other way.
Did Senna, Schumacher or Ron Dennis take any different approach? Of course not.
What I find amazingly self-righteous is all these pros coming out and acting shocked. Hell, Eddie Merckx is saying he's 'disappointed', etc. He did all sorts of drugs during his career. How could be possibly be surprised. These people just aren't this foolish. They're playing a role that they apparently feel like they need to play.
#129
Posted 18 January 2013 - 18:40
#130
Posted 18 January 2013 - 20:05
I'm more turned off by his scorched earth approach. Yeah he had to push back to protect the lie and hiding in plain sight is the best strategy, but jesus dude you're not a small time mafia boss.
He took the approach that many politicians took when they are caught with their pants down. They don't address the allegation, they attack the accuser. Why not? It's effective.
Incidentally, that is what this is all about. It has nothing to do with Lance wanting to get his ban reduced so he can do age-group triathlons when he's 50. He's going into politics. It's just a matter of time. You heard it here first.
If he wants competition, he should get into chess or the World Series of Poker. He'd be good.
#131
Posted 18 January 2013 - 22:46
That makes him predictable, now Barry Bonds that is sleaze.Lance is one creepy sociopath.
#132
Posted 18 January 2013 - 23:48
Of course he'll be good. Who wants to crack his AA and get sued into oblivion by his pack of lawyers?If he wants competition, he should get into chess or the World Series of Poker. He'd be good.
#133
Posted 19 January 2013 - 18:45
I was going to say that I'd be amazed if he was elected to public office but then you guys elected Bush (and thus Cheney) twice so...He took the approach that many politicians took when they are caught with their pants down. They don't address the allegation, they attack the accuser. Why not? It's effective.
Incidentally, that is what this is all about. It has nothing to do with Lance wanting to get his ban reduced so he can do age-group triathlons when he's 50. He's going into politics. It's just a matter of time. You heard it here first.
If he wants competition, he should get into chess or the World Series of Poker. He'd be good.
There was a great article on deadspin about Armstrong. We want to see him suffer because he's an asshole - a first class, king-sized asshole in fact. His refusal to apologise to the Andreus and admit they were telling the truth speaks volumes about the kind of prick this guy is. "I said you were crazy and that you were a bitch, but I never called you fat - I never said that". That's an apology?
To suggest you require this sociopathic mindset to compete at the highest echelons of sport is a disservice to the rest that do and aren't. I don't expect my special forces soldiers to be the boy next door - I want them to get a good nights sleep after killing the baddies, but sport isn't war, it's sport. I do expect those that spend their lives in pursuit of being the best at an otherwise meaningless activity to be competitive, to be ruthless in competition and to understand where to draw the line.
George St. Pierre is the best in the MMA business these days. A superb athlete and skilled fighter who is skilled not only at winning, but at punishing his opponents (Matt Sera, 2nd meeting). Yet, this man who is far more of a physical threat than a 140-pound cyclist with the upper body strength of a starved POW, is a polite, genial and modest man. That is a man. Lance Armstrong is not.
#134
Posted 19 January 2013 - 19:03
#135
Posted 20 January 2013 - 01:47
I was going to say that I'd be amazed if he was elected to public office but then you guys elected Bush (and thus Cheney) twice so...
not me.
#136
Posted 20 January 2013 - 04:29
To suggest you require this sociopathic mindset to compete at the highest echelons of sport is a disservice to the rest that do and aren't.
Agreed, good post. You gave one example, I'll give another since he just died today: Stan Musial. One doesn't have to be an asshole to be awesome.
#137
Posted 20 January 2013 - 06:14
I suppose a better statement on my part would have been "almost 50% of Americans" ;-)not me.
#138
Posted 20 January 2013 - 06:21
I was going to say that I'd be amazed if he was elected to public office but then you guys elected Bush (and thus Cheney) twice so...
If socialism is powerful medicine for the people, it's better to gamble on your own immune system and vote for someone who doesn't believe in medicine than to vote for a party of quacks. Maybe someday things will change, but until then, we spend mountains of money to make society more sick. As the side effects manifest themselves, the prescription is always more medication. This metaphor could be taken literally as well.
Speaking of quacks and bad meds, I'm disappointed in this entire Lance Armstrong story. I don't know what the cycling community are thinking. Everyone blood dopes. Everyone takes pills that skirt or break the rules. Everyone sleeps in hyperbaric chambers. For a decade, they let Armstrong cheat so they could get rich. The officials are not creating the appearance of integrity and sportsmanship with this prosecution. They create the appearance of people who are hellbent on enforcing bad rules for political reasons.
When Armostrong had cancer they zapped him with potentially lethal radiation. Blood transfusions are too dangerous? This is an aesthetic decision to improve political optics. US sports agencies pull the same BS. The players generate billions, but when they sustain abnormally gruesome injuries from competition, some of the best medicines are withheld b/c the league needs to send the right message to the kids.
The kids on Ritalin and Adderall? Take away their diplomas and degrees. They are frauds. We shouldn't have to compete against them.
There is no moral to this Armstrong story. No good. No bad. No justice. Only stupid, and we're surrounded by it.
#139
Posted 20 January 2013 - 12:40
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#140
Posted 20 January 2013 - 16:27
To suggest you require this sociopathic mindset to compete at the highest echelons of sport is a disservice to the rest that do and aren't.
George St. Pierre is the best in the MMA business these days. A superb athlete and skilled fighter
While sociopathic mindsets are not a prerequisite to compete at the highest echelons of sport, it is very, very common. I wish it weren't true, but it is.
GSP is an awesome athlete and an all-around bad-ass. UFC is just not a big enough stage to bring out the real loons, I suspect. The money there is dwarfed even by PRIDE.
It's easy to point fingers at cycling for its doping, but the only difference between cycling and any other popular sport on the planet is that they've been more open. Baseball, basketball, football, hockey, soccer, track/field, any fighting(boxing, Muay Thia, MMA, etc.) are all rife with doping. To think otherwise is being very naive.
#141
Posted 20 January 2013 - 17:26
#142
Posted 20 January 2013 - 19:07
Eventually we're going to have a steroid scandal in high school sports. It has to be going on already and there isn't enough money to keep people quiet forever.
Ever watch that documentary _Bigger, Faster, Stronger_? It's a very good show.
You're right about the high school thing. Sick, but true. They won't catch them if they never test. It's easy enough to just stick your head in the sand and talk about how hard these kids work out while ignoring the elephant in the corner.
#143
Posted 20 January 2013 - 19:10
Don't tell me those gentle giants are doing drugs too! Where will it all end?... the elephant in the corner.
#144
Posted 20 January 2013 - 20:37
There's nothing there I take issue with but that wasn't what I understood from your earlier comment "It's like like someone talking about George Patton being an asshole. Of course he was an asshole! In either case, they wouldn't have been successful any other way.". The message there being that LA or anyone else striving to be a champion HAD to be that guy. I don't buy that argument. Greg Lemond, though appearing slightly unhinged from time to time (as one might after being the victim of Lance's focused psychopathic attention) wasn't a kindred soul to Lance and he too won the Tour.While sociopathic mindsets are not a prerequisite to compete at the highest echelons of sport, it is very, very common. I wish it weren't true, but it is.
GSP is an awesome athlete and an all-around bad-ass. UFC is just not a big enough stage to bring out the real loons, I suspect. The money there is dwarfed even by PRIDE.
It's easy to point fingers at cycling for its doping, but the only difference between cycling and any other popular sport on the planet is that they've been more open. Baseball, basketball, football, hockey, soccer, track/field, any fighting(boxing, Muay Thia, MMA, etc.) are all rife with doping. To think otherwise is being very naive.
If on the other hand you're saying "when the reward is big enough, the population at large will allow psychopaths the power to wreak carnage wherever they travel" - this I agree with. The cycling community let Lance get away with his **** because it was good for business. Now they're crying that Tygart and Walsh et al are "ruining the sport" as if it were them that were guilty. Cycling is simply reaping what they've sowed for so long.
"Everybody" wasn't doping - that's such a tired and weak argument, not to mention factually incorrect. "those that weren't were never going to win anyway" - what disgusting tripe. A though they don't count despite racing at the highest echelons of the sport because their moral fortitude to compete honestly over-rode their desire to win. If PEDs are okay, how about I hire people to interfere with other riders? Training "accidents", loose dogs on the course, errant tacks. If we're willing to accept PEDs as bringing a greater spectacle and "improving" the sport, why draw a line there? Win by any means necessary as long as the rest of us are entertained. It's not competition after all, it's entertainment. Might as well script it WWE style.
I'm a fan of PEDs if I'm honest, particularly for personal use. If you can pay $6000 for a new pair of boobs, why can't I buy a prescribed course of anabolic steroids and support drugs so that I too can "improve my self-esteem" and look good naked? I genuinely don't see the difference. If I'm not competing in sport - get the eff out of my way and let me get lean, ripped and strong the easier way. You get your lipo, your gastric bypass, stomach stapling, nose job, lip-pump, hair dye, saline implants etc. and I'll hit the gym with some chemical assistance (actually, the last two years of riding the wheels off my bikes have completely removed any desire to be huge - I'm almost as light as I was 20 years ago).
#145
Posted 20 January 2013 - 22:59
There's nothing there I take issue with but that wasn't what I understood from your earlier comment "It's like like someone talking about George Patton being an asshole. Of course he was an asshole! In either case, they wouldn't have been successful any other way.". The message there being that LA or anyone else striving to be a champion HAD to be that guy. I don't buy that argument. Greg Lemond, though appearing slightly unhinged from time to time (as one might after being the victim of Lance's focused psychopathic attention) wasn't a kindred soul to Lance and he too won the Tour.
Just note that it was a very different era regarding drug usage...
From ESPN, paraphrasing from Laurent Fignon's book, We Were Young and Carefree
"In the book, Fignon admitted to doping, describing drug-taking in the 1980s as widespread. He said it was recreational rather than performance-enhancing -- aided by the strong Colombian involvement in cycling at the time and accompanied by large quantities of cocaine.He said doping in cycling was revolutionized by the arrival of the blood-booster EPO in the early '90s. Fignon said he refused to take it and retired from competition in 1993 when he realized that mediocre riders were now keeping up with him."
#146
Posted 20 January 2013 - 23:14
#147
Posted 20 January 2013 - 23:33
#148
Posted 20 January 2013 - 23:58
#149
Posted 21 January 2013 - 00:28
Only because we continue to give cheaters an "Uhm...I didn't see nothin' " pass as long they entertain us or enrich our bank accounts. I suppose it speaks to a wider issue with ethics and economics. If we hung cheaters by booting them out and eliminating them from future competition ala Armstrong.
But if he gets away with the loot...
#150
Posted 21 January 2013 - 14:51
Yes, lack of enforcement, either due to lack of willingness, or lack of technical ability, is central to this. When you don't enforce laws or rules, you punish the innocent and make some of them not-so-innocent.Only because we continue to give cheaters an "Uhm...I didn't see nothin' " pass as long they entertain us or enrich our bank accounts. I suppose it speaks to a wider issue with ethics and economics. If we hung cheaters by booting them out and eliminating them from future competition ala Armstrong.