And btw, before Vettel became his teammate, Webber had outqualified every single teammate he ever had, he is a qualifying specialist. Thought you guys should know.
Hamilton:" Vettel misses 4 apexes and still gets pole"
Started by
kosmos
, Nov 03 2012 04:50
272 replies to this topic
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#202
robefc
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:36
And btw, before Vettel became his teammate, Webber had outqualified every single teammate he ever had, he is a qualifying specialist. Thought you guys should know.
Is he? I assume he's beaten some teammates who are pretty reknowned in quali themselves then....such as?
#203
P123
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:37
And btw, before Vettel became his teammate, Webber had outqualified every single teammate he ever had, he is a qualifying specialist. Thought you guys should know.
He just squeaked ahead against a rookie Rosberg in head to head, didn't exactly dominate Heidfeld and defeated DC who never bettered a teammate in head to head in quali over his F1 career. His other teammates aren't really worthy of note.
But thanks for letting us know.
#204
TomNokoe
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:37
Yes but in 2011 the car was way more suited to Vettel's liking and Webber is past his prime. This skews the results.And btw, before Vettel became his teammate, Webber had outqualified every single teammate he ever had, he is a qualifying specialist. Thought you guys should know.
#205
Cenotaph
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 14:52
Fair enough that Rosberg was a rookie, but he actually beat him quite comfortably. Heidfeld was the guy that got closer but still got beat by a decent margin. I do like that you guys think that beating someone is meaningless unless they are renowned Q experts as well, I'm sure it would make discussing guys like Alonso and Hamilton quite funny 
Edited by Cenotaph, 03 November 2012 - 14:52.
#206
joshb
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:03
Yes but in 2011 the car was way more suited to Vettel's liking and Webber is past his prime. This skews the results.
Not sure Webber is that past it based on recent efforts. Granted it wasn't Sebs finest hour (or day for that matter) but he's almost neck and neck all season
#207
f1fastestlap
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:04
Fair enough that Rosberg was a rookie, but he actually beat him quite comfortably. Heidfeld was the guy that got closer but still got beat by a decent margin. I do like that you guys think that beating someone is meaningless unless they are renowned Q experts as well, I'm sure it would make discussing guys like Alonso and Hamilton quite funny
So you're trying to the exact same thing with webber and don't like the following answers?
#208
Cenotaph
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:10
I'm actually trying to give Webber credit for being a good qualifier?
#209
f1fastestlap
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:11
I'm actually trying to give Webber credit for being a good qualifier?
Against meaningless teammates
.Good job
#210
Skinnyguy
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:12
Today -and many other days this year- it was the opposite situation: Lewis would have made pole even with mistakes here and there. Wonder if some classless sour loser will stand up and cry.
#211
Skinnyguy
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:14
Against meaningless teammates
Good job
Putting a Jaguar in front row multiple times against muuuch faster cars, with not that different fuel loads makes irrelevant who your teammate is and what he´s doing, you´re damn GOOD qualifying.
#212
f1fastestlap
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:14
Today -and many other days this year- it was the opposite situation: Lewis would have made pole even with mistakes here and there. Wonder if some classless sour loser will stand up and cry.
But he didn't make those mistakes, and that's the issue...
#213
Cenotaph
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:17
Against meaningless teammates
Good job
You obviously didn't get what I was saying at all. Webber beat every single teammate before Vettel in qualifying. Out of these teammates there were at least three guys who were no slouches in F1 cars at all before Vettel. The argument that what I said was meaningless because his teammates were not good qualifiers was not made by me, I was trying to refute that notion.
Edited by Cenotaph, 03 November 2012 - 15:19.
#214
OO7
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:20
It´s easy. Lewis stats so far on Qualy. against Jenson since 2010:
Lewis 40 - 14 Jenson = Lewis beat Jenson 74% of the time.
Now we compare against the stats between Mark and Seb:
Vettel 55 - 18 M.Webber = Seb beat the 75% of the time Mark Webber. And now we "compare" Mark Webber over one lap vs Button over one lap...
Conclusion: Vettel is extremely fast! Lewis too.;)
#215
Fatgadget
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:20
Indeed.More or less an inch perfect qualy lap.Had he goofed up anywhere never mind miss 4 apexes, it would of been bye bye pole position.But he didn't make those mistakes, and that's the issue...
#216
Ogami musashi
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:22
I'm just saying that for information purpose, i don't care if hamilton or any other driver is right or wrong, the motivations etc...but it is however true according to latest research in racing line optimisation softwares that in high powered cars the fastest theoritical lines often miss apexes especially in hairpins before long stretches.Wrong.
See there page 19:
http://staff.science...9/vandePoel.pdf
Coincidence or not, you can see for 4-5 years now that a several times during pole laps drivers "miss" apexes in hairpins (sepang comes to my mind).
Of course the Track surface & Topography also influences racing lines.
#217
Seanspeed
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:23
This line of thinking just doesn't work. You could keep tracing back and devalue any and everyone doing this.Against meaningless teammates
Good job
#218
Skinnyguy
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:23
But he didn't make those mistakes, and that's the issue...
Vettel doesn´t either, yet that doesn´t stop Lewis from crying about the fact he thinks he would make pole regardless of imaginary mistakes
#219
f1fastestlap
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:25
Vettel doesn´t either, yet that doesn´t stop Lewis from crying about the fact he thinks he would make pole regardless of imaginary mistakes
Yes he does. Just look at India, others have pointed that right there he missed 3 apexes...
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#220
robefc
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:26
BBC has another interview with lewis on alonso v vettel.
It's perhaps worth pointing out that lewis is lauding another driver, not himself versus vettel.
"Fernando didn't have the quickest car," Hamilton said. "Not a great car at the beginning of the year and he still managed to score some great points. Just massively consistent.
"You know that consistency I was talking about wanting to get? Well, he just toppled mine and kept going and going and going
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20192741
I wouldn't mind hearing less about it as Lewis fan though, I must admit. If he was a pundit fair enough and it's clear that he thinks he's at least as good, if not better, than vettel and is massively envious of the cars vettel has had to drive.
He's perfectly entitled to believe that, he might be right, but it's just coming across as unseemly constantly going on about it.
It's perhaps worth pointing out that lewis is lauding another driver, not himself versus vettel.
"Fernando didn't have the quickest car," Hamilton said. "Not a great car at the beginning of the year and he still managed to score some great points. Just massively consistent.
"You know that consistency I was talking about wanting to get? Well, he just toppled mine and kept going and going and going
http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/20192741
I wouldn't mind hearing less about it as Lewis fan though, I must admit. If he was a pundit fair enough and it's clear that he thinks he's at least as good, if not better, than vettel and is massively envious of the cars vettel has had to drive.
He's perfectly entitled to believe that, he might be right, but it's just coming across as unseemly constantly going on about it.
#221
robefc
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:28
This line of thinking just doesn't work. You could keep tracing back and devalue any and everyone doing this.
I don't know much at all about webber's pre red bull career but it is simplistic so just point out that a driver has always beaten his teammates in quali with no regard for who those drivers were nor the gap between them/closeness of the 'score'.
#222
Skinnyguy
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:29
Yes he does. Just look at India, others have pointed that right there he missed 3 apexes...
You should watch the actual races/qualifying sessions, instead of reading whoever these "others" are
#223
f1fastestlap
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:29
This line of thinking just doesn't work. You could keep tracing back and devalue any and everyone doing this.
People can't come here trying to elevate vettel's qualifying skills using webber as an example of a great qualifier when webber as been better than average teammate qualifiers...
#224
robefc
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:29
This line of thinking just doesn't work. You could keep tracing back and devalue any and everyone doing this.
I don't know much at all about webber's pre red bull career but it is simplistic to just point out that a driver has always beaten his teammates in quali with no regard for who those drivers were nor the gap between them/closeness of the 'score'.
Edited by robefc, 03 November 2012 - 15:29.
#225
Skinnyguy
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:31
People can't come here trying to elevate vettel's qualifying skills using webber as an example of a great qualifier when webber as been better than average teammate qualifiers...
I´ll quote myself: Putting a Jaguar in front row multiple times against muuuch faster cars, with not that different fuel loads makes irrelevant who your teammate is and what he´s doing, you´re damn GOOD qualifying.
You´re clutching at straws right now, enjoy your bitter afternoon. Better luck next year
#226
f1fastestlap
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:32
Not talking about you...I´ll quote myself: Putting a Jaguar in front row multiple times against muuuch faster cars, with not that different fuel loads makes irrelevant who your teammate is and what he´s doing, you´re damn GOOD qualifying.
You´re clutching at straws right now, enjoy your bitter afternoon. Better luck next year
#227
bub
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:32
Vettel doesn´t either, yet that doesn´t stop Lewis from crying about the fact he thinks he would make pole regardless of imaginary mistakes
How does claiming Vettel has a great car = crying?
I hope Vettel isn't as sensitive as some of his fans. I'm sure quite a few people at RBR responsible for building the car are happy with what Hamilton said.
#228
robefc
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:33
I´ll quote myself: Putting a Jaguar in front row multiple times against muuuch faster cars, with not that different fuel loads makes irrelevant who your teammate is and what he´s doing, you´re damn GOOD qualifying.
You´re clutching at straws right now, enjoy your bitter afternoon. Better luck next year
If Webber out qualified them how are we judging the other cars are quicker? Genuine question
#229
F1isZen
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:36
The Mclaren has had a quali advantage all year yet Hamilton cant dominate like Seb can. He must be rubbish?
No, you just didn't see what actually happened in the races. Such a Stupid point
#230
Skinnyguy
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:37
If Webber out qualified them how are we judging the other cars are quicker? Genuine question
I know that bias can lead to really stupid statements, but are you really going to argue that the 2003 Jag was better than any car from Ferrari, Williams, McLaren, Renault and BAR? Same question for 2004. If you are, let me just take it as a trolling attempt.
#231
inca_roads
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:39
Lewis should stop the stuff about Vettel - he's made his feelings clear enough already. It must be frustrating, as I think, like I guess he does, that he's the better driver, but Vettel shouldn't be blamed for taking the chances he has with whatever car he gets hold of. And it's not like he's not one of the very best, there are few who are more deserving of the best car.
#232
Skinnyguy
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:39
How does claiming Vettel has a great car = crying?
It´s not, no one is stupid/biased enough to deny that.
But the stupid statement of missing 4 apexes and still getting pole is just crying out loud. There´s no other name for it, especially considering you´ve been in that superiority situation as much times over the current season as the other guy.
#233
Skinnyguy
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:41
Not talking about you...
Still waiting for you to point out the apexes missed in that lap.
#234
robefc
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:42
I know that bias can lead to really stupid statements, but are you really going to argue that the 2003 Jag was better than any car from Ferrari, Williams, McLaren, Renault and BAR? Same question for 2004. If you are, let me just take it as a trolling attempt.
I don't know, I didn't follow the season, I'm just trying to follow the logic that a car qualifying ahead of other cars is slower. And I don't know where his teammates were in comparison, nor whether the Jaguar was particularly quicker in quali than race pace.
I am happy to be informed rather than laughed at and called a troll.
Edited by robefc, 03 November 2012 - 15:45.
#235
F1isZen
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:43
So is there any examples of these laps then? I have never seen Vettel, or anyone else take pole while missing 4 apexes (meaning 4 mistakes) in their pole lap. Of course there can be 1 or 2 lock ups where the ultimate line is not quite met (Hamilton does this way more often than Vettel) but 4 missed apexes? No.
Hilarious to see Alonso and Hamfans not beaing able to handle what Vettel's doing to their idols.
Actually, I remember quite well in Monaco either this year or last year where Martin Brundle pointed out Vettel missing apexes during a replay and yet still claiming pole. It was about 2 apexes though, not 4
Another point is why do people think it's jelousy? Mclaren team will have all the information of lap analysis from the Redbull cars for both Webber and Vettel to use as a comparison to theirs. Hamilton will be well aware of how well Vettel drives around the circuit and he compares technically over a lap. All teams will have that info, nothing new. WE DO NOT HAVE THIS INFORMATION. So to simply dismiss Hamiltons comment is rather idiotic in itself and he's not the 1st person to say something similar anyway
Edited by F1isZen, 03 November 2012 - 15:45.
#236
MP422
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:43
To those who answer "sour grapes", I'd just like to say that people are entitled to say what they think AND that truth hurts, doesn't it?
Vettel has a faster car, that's the truth. Drivers say it because a journalist asks them the question. And they're honest, so they answer.
No jealousy, just people not being able to handle the truth. I'm an Alonso fan and I agree with Lewis.
Case closed.
Well said.
I think Hamilton and Alonso know a tiny bit more about apexes then some posters....lol.
Edited by MP422, 03 November 2012 - 15:43.
#237
robefc
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:44
It´s not, no one is stupid/biased enough to deny that.
But the stupid statement of missing 4 apexes and still getting pole is just crying out loud. There´s no other name for it, especially considering you´ve been in that superiority situation as much times over the current season as the other guy.
Knowing how many of lewis's statements look when heard versus in print, I'm willing to bet it was said with a laugh or a smile.
The way the exact content of interviews, which are mainly not actually watched or listened to but rather read, are analysed on here is silly.
#238
whitevisor
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:49
Hamilton and Alonso know they are better than Vettel. It's that simple.
#239
Cenotaph
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 15:52
I don't know much at all about webber's pre red bull career but it is simplistic to just point out that a driver has always beaten his teammates in quali with no regard for who those drivers were nor the gap between them/closeness of the 'score'.
Then my advice would be for you to check the stats for yourself and I think you will be positively surprised by Webber's quality in Q.
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#240
F1isZen
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:01
and Lewis yet again makes a fool of himself...This guy never learns ,now does he?
Misses four apexes and still gets pole??..This guy is 55-18 against one of the best qualifiers on the grid...You can say anything u want about Webber but he is unarguably a phenomenal qualifier.
and before someone comes in and plays the bias card,im not a 'proper' fan of either Hamilton or Vettel.infact i used to like the prior better...but his recent actions/comments are making it more and more difficult for me to respect him..the way he conducts himself,im reasonably certain this guy has a low average IQ at best.
Actually it is individual with low IQ's that can't seem to understand that it takes a high degree of brain effort and intelligence for a man to be much better than other elite athletes in the same sport. Being a genius like Mozart doesn't make you an Einstein, Being brilliant like a Messi doesn't give you an academic advantage, yet they are all incredibly brilliant individuals in their field. Stop using the old flawed view that academic brilliance is the measure of intelligence. It's not, it's an old philosophy on something we dont understand and just soo wrong. If it is not transferable to other areas of the so called Genius life then is it really general intelligence as opposed to just academic brilliance.
Sorry about the rant, was writing a paper on different kinds of intelligence and went off topic
#241
f1fastestlap
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:15
Still waiting for you to point out the apexes missed in that lap.
If you know the definition of apex, then you should see he misses some in that lap, but, hey, what do Lewis know about apexes...
#242
F1isZen
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:18
As I said... it´s just rubbish from Lewis (and people who supports those kind of rubbish). PLEASE WATCH THE LAST TURN FROM LEWIS ON HIS POLE LAP AT MALAYSIA THIS SEASON:
That´s what I call talking about FACTS and PROOFS. He missed the appex... and despite of it, he achieved the pole... that´s what he call a rocketship.
Sorry guys but a lot of Lewis supporting those kind of rubbish from him it´s just fanboyism. Next time you want to support such a stats you should watch a whole season and give some proofs.
Again, you are actually supporting what Lewis said by making this comment that if you have that kind of car, you can afford to miss apexes. The only thing is that you only pointed out Hamilton missing 1 apex, but who doesn't. Hamilton never claimed he or Alonso was perfect all the time.
He also didn't say Vettel was missing 4 apexes in all his qualifying performances all the time, so there is no point just pointing out just 1 qualifying session as proof that he doesn't miss apexes and Hamilton is saying nonsense. I do not think English is you first language and your arguments seem rather defensive, close-minded and desperate.
#243
RealRacing
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:38
Hamilton is good, he knows it, we know it. Vettel is also good, he knows it, we know it. What is the need of LH and FA to try to diminish SV? Some can say that FA is trying to play mind games as he's still in the championship. Seriously, let your driving do the talking; the other can only hurt you and make you (even less) likable than you already are.
I don't see a good mental attitude from Hamilton when he's probably on the brink of having some tough times starting next season at Mercedes...or maybe it's just the humbling experience that he needs.
I don't see a good mental attitude from Hamilton when he's probably on the brink of having some tough times starting next season at Mercedes...or maybe it's just the humbling experience that he needs.
#244
SparkPlug
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:39
Sour grapes.
Vettel's success has really gotten under the skin of Alonso and Hamilton. They cant stand the fact that one driver has taken away all the glory they were supposed to have. Theres no other way in looking at this.
These comments are really not classy at all. I know who I'll be supporting in case Vettel ever teams up with one of these egoistic prima donnas.
Vettel's success has really gotten under the skin of Alonso and Hamilton. They cant stand the fact that one driver has taken away all the glory they were supposed to have. Theres no other way in looking at this.
These comments are really not classy at all. I know who I'll be supporting in case Vettel ever teams up with one of these egoistic prima donnas.
#245
Zava
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:40
nope. Hamilton and Alonso are afraid they are wrong in that question.Hamilton and Alonso know they are better than Vettel. It's that simple.
#246
bub
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 16:48
Hamilton is good, he knows it, we know it. Vettel is also good, he knows it, we know it. What is the need of LH and FA to try to diminish SV?
How are they trying to diminish SV? Did either of them say he's not a good driver or he doesn't deserve his success?
Saying it's not all Vettel/Vettel has the best car is trying to diminish him?
#247
RealRacing
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 17:01
How are they trying to diminish SV? Did either of them say he's not a good driver or he doesn't deserve his success?
Saying it's not all Vettel/Vettel has the best car is trying to diminish him?
They haven't said he's not good (which would be a lie of course), but lately they have been very purposeful in implying that the car (the designer) has a big(ger) part in Vettel's success. IMO they have all enjoyed the best or one of the best cars at one point or another during the season (taking into account that the best car is a complete package including speed in different conditions, reliability, among many others). Hamilton's lack of results has been put down to bad luck and team mistakes and Alonso's to the supposed lack of speed from the car. IMO these factors have been largely exaggerated by the drivers themselves and their fans. In any case, IMO the best thing they could do would be to shut up no matter what: it's a win-win.
#248
Seanspeed
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 17:05
Vettel's got 99 problems but an apex aint one.
#249
whitevisor
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 17:11
Vettel's got 99 problems but an apex aint one.
No, apparently its four apexes.
#250
alframsey
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Posted 03 November 2012 - 17:13
Lol do you seriously believe this? Yes the car started off as the best but it has lost it's way over the season, in truth though nobody has had a car that is as dominant as the previous RBRHamilton is such a hack. Is he forgetting this year hes had a better car than seb and hes been schooled?
