Hamilton:" Vettel misses 4 apexes and still gets pole"

Oops, it looks like Lewis missed the apex of Parabolica, yet was still 0.2 faster than Massa and 0.8 faster than Vettel.

It's kind of typical with these kinds of quotes, that he fails to give an example. The only example I can think of is India, but everyone was messing up their Q3 laps there, so that was more a matter of who made the fewest mistakes.

Jealosy thread wud ve been the correct thread for it to go

Unfortunately, when this piece of news made the 1st headline at least 12hrs ago, the jealously thread was already locked by Buttoneer.

So, the OP had no other alternative but to open a new thread.

Lewis' tears are tasty!

oh, and I'll leave this one here

We are in November already, you know.

It's sad to see Hamilton and Alonso take such cheap shots at Vettel. And it's unfair to us fans not to see these three in equally competitive cars so that they can let their driving do the talking.

The Mclaren has had a quali advantage all year yet Hamilton cant dominate like Seb can. He must be rubbish?

All year? You can't be taken seriously. Red Bull has now once again got their downforce-advantage, and they've duly qualified on pole 3 races in a row.
..which they also did for Monaco, Canada and Europe. It's been very good to great all year, it's just that now it's dominant.

Edited by race addicted, 03 November 2012 - 09:06.

Hamilton was outqualified by button last year on many occasions.

Pretty sure most of those occasions were because Hamilton was blocked on his final run, or failed to make the flag. Seem to remember lots things going wrong for Hamilton in qualifying last year.

Glad to see Vettel's fans can't handle the truth...

Glad to see Vettel's fans can't handle the truth...

glad to see Hamilton and Alonso not being able to handle reality...

It's sad to see Hamilton and Alonso take such cheap shots at Vettel. And it's unfair to us fans not to see these three in equally competitive cars so that they can let their driving do the talking.

Over hundred years open wheel Grand Prix never was about the same cars. Innovation on engine and chassis side complemented with driver's skills was always hallmark of the series. Unfortunately in recent memory whole damn thing is turning into something else, and not too many people like it, as evidenced by formation of a new steering committee, and I think that's just beginning of a yet different era.

Edited by Sakae, 03 November 2012 - 09:16.

I love it when Lewis tells the simple truth. Great guy with big balls.

I see nothing wrong with any of what he said. Just truth. If you have the fastest car by a mile, then you can afford to make mistakes and still win. Not sure why there is a 2-page-thread about it. He also said much positive about Vettel.

It´s easy. Lewis stats so far on Qualy. against Jenson since 2010:

Lewis 40 - 14 Jenson = Lewis beat Jenson 74% of the time.

Now we compare against the stats between Mark and Seb:

Vettel 55 - 18 M.Webber = Seb beat the 75% of the time Mark Webber. And now we "compare" Mark Webber over one lap vs Button over one lap...

Conclusion: Vettel is extremely fast! Lewis too.;)

oh stats... lets compare the ratio of their poles too.

Please proceed.

Lewis and Fernando are really becoming a bit annoying with those constant cheap digs at Vettel.

In 2010. at least both had opportunity to beat Vettel and it didn't happen. Not that they had a worse season, but they also didn't have better seasons than Vettel. 2011 Vettel had better car, yeah, but 2012. again - its not all about car. Lewis should remember that it was his team that blew up royally when McLaren was fastest car and when there was possibility of opening 2009. BGP kind of gap in first half of season.

"Vettel misses four apexes and still gets pole"

This has been noted by, at one point (or more), more or less every forum member.

Can anybody PROVE IT ???

When you stat a thing like this you must give proves, if not you are talking simply rubbish.

First bold) Indeed. The pattern shown by 2011 and the last few races of this season is that the more rear downforce Red Bull piles on compared to the opposition the more remarkable Vettel looks compared to both Webber and the rest of the field. We know he is a good driver and accusations of being an "EBD champion" are harsh but the fact is for most of the last four years he has driven a car with fundamentally more downforce than any other driver apart from Mark Webber. How we rate Webber then becomes crucial in evaluating Vettel. Vettel fans will say Webber is electrically fast over one lap and just below the tier 1 drivers. Vettel detractors will say Webber is a journeyman who showed pace in bursts but isn't worthy of such a good car. I'm not sure what a neutral would say...

Second bold) This is complete conjecture but I would rate them at a similar level, even though Button is a WDC. Some would say that as soon as I do that I have to rate Vettel above Hamilton; well, no. I believe there are two anomalies in the F1 careers of Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel: (1) how poor Hamilton was in 2011. (2) how good Vettel was in 2011. If the pattern of last year had continued into this then I would have had to seriously start re-evaluating my interpretation of F1's pecking order, but it didn't. Hamilton has thrashed Button this season, and I challenge any objective F1 fan to claim otherwise. Vettel, on the other hand, has looked much more vulnerable at times than he did in 2011. Ever since a big Red Bull update which restored their downforce advantage over the field he is back to his imperious 2011 spec.

My thoughts on the original matter are that both Alonso and Hamilton (and others actually) have shown they are capable of doing what Vettel so often does; they can both qualify on pole and drive off into the sunset. We don't know if they can do it with the same consistency as Vettel but in my view that's because they have had far, far less opportunities to do so. I seriously rate Vettel's 2011; he was pretty much flawless and loved the characteristics of the car so I'm not convinced anyone on the grid could have beaten him that season as a teammate. However, I don't think we should be in any doubt what has elevated Vettel from one of a number of very good drivers to the class of the field.

As another objective fan of f1, I think a lot of this hits the nail on the head - particularly the last paragraph. I was expecting to be fully convinced by vettel's ability this season after seeing them slightly of the pace (in quali trim at least) in the first race. The truth is though is that as the season's gone on it's really just confirmed what I thought in the first place. He's basically been matched by webber the whole way through the season (and even behind him at certain points) until the car has been rocketshipped again and webber has had his customary run of insanely bad luck.

I dunno, this season he seems to have just kept in touch with a series of generally uninspiring drives until his car became dominant again, and his main rival's (I don't think it ever really was alonso) car starts breaking or falling off the bleeding edge.

One of my favourite sights in f1 at the moment is seeing vettel's onboard camera in q3, he's like an x-wing pilot flying in the valleys of the Death Star. However, I'm still completely unconvinced he's at the same level overall as Hamilton and alonso and the fact that practically everyone in the f1 ecosystem is always talking about this tells you everything you need to know. Seems that if you try and talk about you get buried under an avalanche of stats and jealousy claims. I have absolutely zero investment in whether vettel is the best driver or not, I just think its pretty clear he isn't.

Still acting as a child I see. Have a feeling this man will never grow up. As the time goes by the more and more he looks like Jacque.

He can't stop talking about Vettel now. Must be that painful rejection when his management team approached Red Bull, only to be told that Red Bull is happy with Webber.

It's sad to see Hamilton and Alonso take such cheap shots at Vettel. And it's unfair to us fans not to see these three in equally competitive cars so that they can let their driving do the talking.

The only way to let their driving do the talking is to put them in spec cars or all in the one team, and neither will ever happen. F1 is a car-dominated sport and if Lewis feels that strongly this year, I fear that he's in for an even ruder shock next year,

oh stats... lets compare the ratio of their poles too.

Please proceed.

Usually people doubts about stats when doesn´t support his "ideas".

But ifyou take your time and follow the initial point you would see that it was a simply answer to someone who said Webber beat Seb this season 7 times on Q3 and, because of that´s Seb was not so impressive compared to Button.

My answer was/is: 55-18 over almost 4 season.

And then I compared Lewis vs Button stats on qualy. just to find/prove they have the same average beating teammate on qualy.

Wthout those stats you can argue Button is a better qualifier than Lewis for example. But... then someone will report you the stats so far between them and prove he is not. You would say then (as you´ve said): "oh, stats..." or you would not? Those stats proves a reality.

Edited by Alarcon, 03 November 2012 - 09:34.

Vettels fans find a voice once his car is the best...

I dunno, this season he seems to have just kept in touch with a series of generally uninspiring drives until his car became dominant again, and his main rival's (I don't think it ever really was alonso) car starts breaking or falling off the bleeding edge.

Same impression I have. Alonso and Hamilton might be uninspiring for a race every now and then, but not for long periods, unlike Vettel. Even in 2011, Hamilton might have been crashing with Massa half the time but at least he was still flying. Vettel just seems ordinary too often to be a truly great driver, because that is what seperates the real greats, they are always performing strongly. They don't fail to make Q3 while their 36 year old team mate gets pole and dominates Monaco, and they don't get annihilated in F3 by Hamilton.

Edited by decoder, 03 November 2012 - 09:36.

Maybe they should show Hamilton onboard-footage of his own Pole-lap in Malaysia this year....

Edited by LiJu914, 03 November 2012 - 09:38.

As another objective fan of f1, I think a lot of this hits the nail on the head - particularly the last paragraph. I was expecting to be fully convinced by vettel's ability this season after seeing them slightly of the pace (in quali trim at least) in the first race. The truth is though is that as the season's gone on it's really just confirmed what I thought in the first place. He's basically been matched by webber the whole way through the season (and even behind him at certain points) until the car has been rocketshipped again and webber has had his customary run of insanely bad luck.

I dunno, this season he seems to have just kept in touch with a series of generally uninspiring drives until his car became dominant again, and his main rival's (I don't think it ever really was alonso) car starts breaking or falling off the bleeding edge.

One of my favourite sights in f1 at the moment is seeing vettel's onboard camera in q3, he's like an x-wing pilot flying in the valleys of the Death Star. However, I'm still completely unconvinced he's at the same level overall as Hamilton and alonso and the fact that practically everyone in the f1 ecosystem is always talking about this tells you everything you need to know. Seems that if you try and talk about you get buried under an avalanche of stats and jealousy claims. I have absolutely zero investment in whether vettel is the best driver or not, I just think its pretty clear he isn't.

Please can you explain me where Webber was compared to Seb at Bahrein (just the 4th race of the season), at Barcelona, at Hungary (unable to Q3), at Monza (unable to Q3), at Canada or at Hockenheim???

When they "rocketship" the car???

Vettels fans find a voice once his car is the best...

He has been the best on the last 3 races. A whole season is about 17 races, and we all know over those 17 races McLaren has been consistly faster and much regular on qualy than the rest.

Note: I´m talking about qualy pace and not about race pace.

Edited by Alarcon, 03 November 2012 - 09:42.

With that you could ask why Sebastian missed Q3 this season considering his greatness?

To those who answer "sour grapes", I'd just like to say that people are entitled to say what they think AND that truth hurts, doesn't it?

Vettel has a faster car, that's the truth. Drivers say it because a journalist asks them the question. And they're honest, so they answer.

No jealousy, just people not being able to handle the truth. I'm an Alonso fan and I agree with Lewis.

Case closed.

Next year a lot more drivers will miss 4 apexes and still be faster than him. . Hopefully I'm wrong though.

The difference between Hamilton and Vettel this year is that Vettel always translated his qualifying pace also into race pace, while Hamilton, Button and Webber couldn't do that. On some occasions they've clearly underperformed.

To those who answer "sour grapes", I'd just like to say that people are entitled to say what they think AND that truth hurts, doesn't it?

Vettel has a faster car, that's the truth. Drivers say it because a journalist asks them the question. And they're honest, so they answer.

No jealousy, just people not being able to handle the truth. I'm an Alonso fan and I agree with Lewis.

Case closed.

It may be the truth, I'm not arguing that point at all, but there are far classier ways to talk about it. It really does come across as a bit of a whine from Hamilton.

To those who answer "sour grapes", I'd just like to say that people are entitled to say what they think AND that truth hurts, doesn't it?

Vettel has a faster car, that's the truth. Drivers say it because a journalist asks them the question. And they're honest, so they answer.

No jealousy, just people not being able to handle the truth. I'm an Alonso fan and I agree with Lewis.

Case closed.

The fact is that the teams make winners no matter what. If Alonso wins it is becouse of this source and nothing else...

Ok. One can argue that Button is a better driver than Webber. But do you seriously think that Button can match Webber when it comes to qualifying? I seriously doubt it.

Maybe you should compate Buttons average grid position wirh Webbers in 2011.

He's got Hamilton and Alonso done in the head- they're bringing him up more than ever- he's hit a nerve with them.
The lap in India was one of the few occasions where he did a scruffy lap in qualifying- normally he is as precise as anybody

I hope they tell Mark Webber, what Lewis said, and film his reaction.

Please can you explain me where Webber was compared to Seb at Bahrein (just the 4th race of the season), at Barcelona, at Hungary (unable to Q3), at Monza (unable to Q3), at Canada or at Hockenheim???

When they "rocketship" the car???

What's the point in me doing that? My opinion is that vettel and webber have been pretty evenly matched this season when taking everything into consideration, and i think that opinion holds up when you match with the stats (there's a seperate argument about people being far reliant in supporting arguments with data and stats these days, especially in f1, but that's another argument for another day)

To be honest I don't really want to discuss this with any fanboys, sorry! It's too frustrating

I hope they tell Mark Webber, what Lewis said, and film his reaction.

Thing with Mark is he knows he isn't as good as Vettel, Lewis or Fernando.

So he'd probably agree.

Thing with Mark is he knows he isn't as good as Vettel, Lewis or Fernando.

So he'd probably agree.

My post wasn´t meant to be serious, but i doubt MW would agree, that he´s so bad, that SV can afford to miss 4 apexes on a hotlap and still be faster than him.

Edited by LiJu914, 03 November 2012 - 10:02.

My post wasn´t meant to be serious, but i doubt MW would agree, that he´s so bad, that SV can afford to miss 4 apexes on a hotlap and still be faster than him.

Mark is a realist, Sebastian has missed apexes and been faster than him.

So, has it been established which race he was talking about?

Mark is a realist, Sebastian has missed apexes and been faster than him.

Yeah one perhaps, but four...

"It's a bit unfair, isn't it? I wish my car was slower" said no race car driver ever.

When you have a season with 7 different winners, with different drivers on pole, with equal cars depending the race, with drivers (as in Valencia) qualifiying 10th just 2 tenths from the pole... sorry if that hurts you, but this has been the most equal season ever in F1.

It´s not me. It´s the statistic.

It was ... until the last three or four races

LOL at this thread typical ganbanging crap and once again you lot take the bait. Who honestly thinks Lewis and Alonso go to the press and media banging on about Vettel and Redbull. The F1 media want to cause havok for the sake of it there the one's bombarding these guys about sebastian , theres only so many times you can give a neutral opinon on the subject but when you come out with an independant answer the media spin it. Always have done one always will do, surprising how some people don't now how society works these days.

Oh and before somone says im a blantent fanboy i don't agree fully with the whole apex subject ( Malaysia ) but then cast your minds back to germany 2011 when Lewis hit all his apex's and still wasn't faster than Webber , just a thought.

Hamilton is right about Vettel having a huge car advantage 2010-2012. What he doesn't say though is that he himself has had a better car than Alonso and Räikkönen this season, yet trails both and is almost mathematically unable to catch the former.

I think Vettel is almost driving at the same level as Alonso this season, and was equal to him last year. Certainly way better than Lewis Hamilton in 2011 and 2012 /thread.

Hambanging crap

we know the Red Bull's have pulled away from the rest in the car upgrade stakes, down to the other teams to catch up. innit

Some of the comments in this thread blow my mind, Jesus...!

As for Lewis' quote, I'm a bit surprised given that the reason why Seb is much quicker than Webber on circuits with slow corners is because he DOES miss he apex in order to get on the throttle early. mark does the opposite and is very classical in that sense (hit the apex very quickly) hence why at tracks like silverstone, Malaysia, nurburgring and Suzuka he's bloody quick.

Someone earlier posted about how if the RB has significant rear grip, Vettel out does Webber as shown in the latter ends of 2010/2012 and all of 2011. That is largely because of his tendency to get on the throttle early, he doesn't really need to hit the apexs perfectly.

Sour grapes? Maybe. Mindgames? Absolutely.

Hamilton is right about Vettel having a huge car advantage 2010-2012. What he doesn't say though is that he himself has had a better car than Alonso and Räikkönen this season, yet trails both and is almost mathematically unable to catch the former.I think Vettel is almost driving at the same level as Alonso this season, and was equal to him last year. Certainly way better than Lewis Hamilton in 2011 and 2012 /thread.

This again come on man , this guy had alot of team miatakes and reliability this year , Alonso and kimi have had great reliabilty and team consistantcy , no point having a fast car if it can't finish .

Hamilton is right about Vettel having a huge car advantage 2010-2012. What he doesn't say though is that he himself has had a better car than Alonso and Räikkönen this season, yet trails both and is almost mathematically unable to catch the former.

I think Vettel is almost driving at the same level as Alonso this season, and was equal to him last year. Certainly way better than Lewis Hamilton in 2011 and 2012 /thread.

Not classy and a whiner, not cool Lewis
Must have really hurt when Red Bull told Lewis (' management) to take a hike and subsequently sign Mark Webber for 2013

Gotta love LH and FA trolling the media with them grapes. Awfully sour grapes.

Has anyone verified that Vettel actually did miss four apexes and got pole? If yes, does this happen regularly?

“I think lots of people in the paddock wish they could have Adrian’s car so they could show that they’re just as competitive as Sebastian,”
Now, it's not just about Alonso and Hamilton being better than Vettel, but he thinks "lots of people ... could show they're as competitive as Sebastian".

Alonso and Hamilton seem to have a pretty obvious agenda to establish themselves as the best drivers in F1 off track.

I consider this as poor coming from Hamilton, especially after 2011 in which he did lots of mistakes and Button was at times faster.

Edited by apoka, 03 November 2012 - 10:45.

Hamilton is right about Vettel having a huge car advantage 2010-2012. What he doesn't say though is that he himself has had a better car than Alonso and Räikkönen this season, yet trails both and is almost mathematically unable to catch the former.

I think Vettel is almost driving at the same level as Alonso this season, and was equal to him last year. Certainly way better than Lewis Hamilton in 2011 and 2012 /thread.

What has it to do with him? He's commenting on Vettel having a car advantage, there is no reason to mention his performance (better or worse) relative to Alonso because it is another topic.

What has it to do with him? He's commenting on Vettel having a car advantage, there is no reason to mention his performance (better or worse) relative to Alonso because it is another topic.

He directly compares to Alonso:

“I think lots of people in the paddock wish they could have Adrian’s car so they could show that they’re just as competitive as Sebastian,” Hamilton said. “Fernando, for me, is more accurate. He hits all the apexes".

I think Hamilton is running some kind of competition. How many times a day he can praise Alonso and dismiss Vettel. I think it is making him look like such a loser.

Edited by Massa_f1, 03 November 2012 - 11:01.