Schumie at Benetton "We never cheated at any time" [split]

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 16:49.

that are just claims of a (mostly british) press.

Edited by William Hunt, 08 November 2012 - 16:57.

untrue: claims of people who worked for Benetton at the time too + accusations of other teams and drivers (Gerhard Berger for example) + accusations of Jos Verstappen that Schumacher had traction control on his car + where there is smoke, there is fire

1st untrue: claims of people who worked for Benetton at the time too

+ accusations of other teams and drivers (Gerhard Berger for example)

accusations of Jos Verstappen that Schumacher had traction control on his car

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 17:17.

Accordings to a magazine. Back to square one.

...

And do you think that these magazines didn't check their sources before claiming that former Benetton personnel is accusing their former employer of cheating?

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 17:11.

No further answer to your adventurous cover-up-theory?

What a surprise...

I have a hypothesis that MS wanted to win 8 titles to beat Fangio, hence his comeback. On the basis that there was a still small voice telling him his first two didn't really count...

Edited by 1Devil1, 08 November 2012 - 17:28.

Eh? I didn't have a cover-up theory. I had a lack of enforcement hypothesis. Add to that slinging Benetton out of the WC would have led to one heck of a legal battle with all sorts of skeletons coming out of the closet - perhaps related to, say, another team the FIA liked using TC (as admitted by one of its drivers) - that the FIA might have preferred to keep closed.

It was certainly common knowledge at the time that that's why Schumacher kept getting draconian penalties for technical breaches - the FIA couldn't (or wouldn't) nail them for the big stuff so they threw the small stuff at them.

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 17:40.

Eh? I didn't have a cover-up theory. I had a lack of enforcement hypothesis. Add to that slinging Benetton out of the WC would have led to one heck of a legal battle with all sorts of skeletons coming out of the closet - perhaps related to, say, another team the FIA liked using TC (as admitted by one of its drivers) - that the FIA might have preferred to keep closed.

It was certainly common knowledge at the time that that's why Schumacher kept getting draconian penalties for technical breaches - the FIA couldn't (or wouldn't) nail them for the big stuff so they threw the small stuff at them.

Something to do with Vasco da Gama, if I remember correctly.

The other thing to is that in 1994, the FIA was far in over their heads when it came to checking cars for all sorts of things. That the FIA could have missed things during post-race scrutineering is not all that unusual.

Maybe i misunderstood you, but i thought, you assumed the FIA/LRDA found a TC besides the launch control, but didn´t publish that. Which would´ve made little sense (see previous answers).

btw. When you said (and meant it seriously) that Benetton switched the LC/TC off in Imola, because they were being investigated, why was it also apparently deactivated:
- at the start in Brazil?
- in Monaco qualifying (out of the last corner) and during the race (wheel-spin out of the chicane after the tunnel..)?
etc.

Actually it was Pedro Alvares Cabral, but it was close enough, and a good one.

There seemed to be a suggestion that the LC could have been used as a TC, but I failed to follow the technical arguments. What I DO remember is Benetton's excuse that "it was difficult to unpick the code so we just hid it" was ridiculed by the other teams - one other said it took about five minutes to do.

Simple enough - I can't remember what happened at those races. But who's to say that it would be used at all times? There are times when Suarez is genuinely fouled, there were times when Carnera didn't have opponents bought off.

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 18:52.

Trouble is Johnny, you're lying through your teeth, as you weren't faster in any of the sessions, either before or after the so called "you can't see my data any more". I guess that Speedcar title didn't console you much, did it Johnny?

Seriously, it has come to that(?) : "Benetton always used TC, LC, electric toothbrushes et. al. ....oh, except for the occasions, when they obviously didn´t use it."

Do you realize, how silly that argument is?

...

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 19:15.

Well on the hypothesis that the FIA might just have missed something, probably every team cheated then...

Come on now already.
No other team had the amount of accusations of rampant cheating thrown their way in the manner that occurred with Benetton.

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 19:53.

Come on now already.

No other team had the amount of accusations of rampant cheating thrown their way in the manner that occurred with Benetton.

...and they were found to be definitively cheating regarding the fuel refueling rigs being modified to increase the flow rate by 12.5%. Pretty sizable advantage to have in those days, not even taking any other things into account like traction control.

So by not cheating (due to having permission to remove the filter), they're proven to have cheated running something they never had?

I think I've got the measure of the logic at play in this thread now.

So by not cheating (due to having permission to remove the filter), they're proven to have cheated running something they never had?

I think I've got the measure of the logic at play in this thread now.

Don't get upset. You will find no logic in his comments. One step wrong and you are always guilty. Why is McLaren running in this championship, they cheated in 2007, the must be clearly have a advantage by using some "illegal" I never heard about. Hope nobody is studying law who's taking those conclusions.

Devil,

Can you tell me if the current technical rules in 2012 are identical to that of 2007?

I might be mistaken, but I was under the working assumption the rule book has changed just a tad bit in the past five years...or did I miss something where the cars are still near identical to the 2007 season?

But subject A has nothing to do with subject B that is my point. While FIA found the wrong filter system at Benetton doesn't mean they are guilty for having a traction control. Just because you believe the "bad" team of the 1994 season would have done everything to win doesn't mean they did so.? There is no interconnection of fuel rig and traction control just because we are looking at one regulation system (1994). Do not get your argument.

Edited by MightyMoose, 08 November 2012 - 22:21.
Removed: Libelous statement> Brown Shirt Max goose-stepped

[...]
Flavio: Hey Schumi let´s use a illegal launch control for 94, okay?
MSC: Great idea!
Flavio: Alright, but let´s just use it here and there randomly..not at every Grand Prix.
MSC: Why not?
Flavio: Well because...
[...]

MSC: Fine, but while we're at it, let's only put it on my car, because i'm an evil cheater and who needs constructor championships anyway?

I have a hypothesis that MS wanted to win 8 titles to beat Fangio, hence his comeback. On the basis that there was a still small voice telling him his first two didn't really count...

You're technically correct, although in the (wet) first qualifying session in Argentina Herbert was only 0.012s off Schumacher's best time. Very close to beating him, especially by 1995 standards. Strikes me that 1) it's perfectly reasonable for Herbert's memory to be ever so slightly out (he doesn't strike me as someone who'd keep all the official timesheets just in case an interviewer asked him about them) and 2) it doesn't exactly invalidate what he's saying.

If cycling could open up a case against Lance Armstrong and strip him of all of his titles 13 years after the first for cheating, the FIA could certainly reopen the sham of 1994 and get to the bottom of it. Just promise immunity to those who know, and then give the 1994 WDC to Damon Hill.

Competitive nature of the sport makes you remember every little victory you got

Forget psychoanalysis for dummies, this is mind-reading.

Edited by Vic Vega, 08 November 2012 - 22:49.

untrue: claims of people who worked for Benetton at the time too

accusations of other teams and drivers (Gerhard Berger for example)

accusations of Jos Verstappen that Schumacher had traction control on his car

where there is smoke, there is fire

Edited by Vic Vega, 09 November 2012 - 00:24.

Why I bring up the refueling rig is because Benetton proved they were willing to go the extra distance to cheat their way to the 1994 title. They got caught red-handed finally and were set to be kicked out of the championship altogether till Mosley walked his way into the disciplinary hearing and organized it in favor of Benetton.

Just a reminder to everyone that you are responsible for anything you write on here and we as MODs will not stand back and allow potential libelous statements on here about anyone's role in 1994. Particularly if you insist on commenting 'negatively' on those who were in positions of authority.

This is a tricky topic because battle lines have been drawn a long time ago, I doubt any information that will be forthcoming will be sufficient to change anyone's mind from the position they've taken up. Therefore please consider how you approach it.

Sorry, but whilst I am aware of frequent adveserial opinions about various incidents in his F1 career, I am not aware of any act you describe which could be presented in forensically sound terms, despite that I am with him since Prost retired. He was judged by media, racing enthusiasts, and by FiA; a body of three people who are working with limited resources, time, and are prone to human error. (I sometimes actually wonder where and by whom they were trained on modern techniques of investigation of incidents they judge). I think we can leave it at that.

Proof of guilt for one crime (which is also on shaky ground), does not translate to proof for another.

Its akin to a courtroom scene where the prosecution makes wild claims such as :

"That man stole my lunchbox, thus he is also responsible for all murders in my city this year ! What more proof do you require ? "

You are saying that Schumacher has never been proven of having cheated ? So Monte Carlo 2006 never happened in your mind then ? He cheated, he denied it, he was thrown to the back of the grid. That's not really under question, at least not with rational people, anyhow.

My point is that it is widely accepted that Schumacher has personally cheated in the past, and strongly denied or lied about the incidents. Why should we believe his denials this time ? I don't think that he had anything to do with the removal of the fuel filters, but it's interesting that he is raising this issue right now, when his on track performances are just turning out so direly. He's racing really badly recently, and has obviously badly tarnished his legacy, and questions are going to be asked about just how much his past performances were actually down to his personal skill, and what other factors were involved in his fantastic successes .

You ignore that one of the Benetton mechanics said the B-194 had everything but cruise control...I think he would have been in a better position to speak than you. It's actually mentioned in the article I posted.

Edited by kyriakos75, 09 November 2012 - 19:13.

So according to your "argument" this particular mechanic didn't rule out miniguns either? If we combine this with Flavio's criminal record it's obvious to everyone that the B-194 must have had them hidden inside its sidepods.

Edited by BoschKurve, 09 November 2012 - 19:31.

They never cheated?
http://en.wikipedia....gian_Grand_Prix

Post race the German was stripped of his win due to excessive wear on his Benetton's skid block.[1] This would indicate the car's ride height was too low and hence he had an illegal aerodynamic advantage. The Benetton team's claim that it was due to Schumacher making a full spin on top of the curbs on lap 19 was rejected by the Stewards because of the wear pattern.

This thread is about Schumacher comments about Benetton not about Monaco 2006, not about his so called bad performance recently or you questioning if he ever was really good.

They never cheated?
http://en.wikipedia....gian_Grand_Prix

Post race the German was stripped of his win due to excessive wear on his Benetton's skid block.[1] This would indicate the car's ride height was too low and hence he had an illegal aerodynamic advantage. The Benetton team's claim that it was due to Schumacher making a full spin on top of the curbs on lap 19 was rejected by the Stewards because of the wear pattern.

They never cheated?
http://en.wikipedia....gian_Grand_Prix

Post race the German was stripped of his win due to excessive wear on his Benetton's skid block.[1] This would indicate the car's ride height was too low and hence he had an illegal aerodynamic advantage. The Benetton team's claim that it was due to Schumacher making a full spin on top of the curbs on lap 19 was rejected by the Stewards because of the wear pattern.