Schumie at Benetton "We never cheated at any time" [split]

It was a program for (deactivated) Launch control. Tractions control was never found at the Benetton. I guess Ayrton ears are fine for some users as evidence ;)

"Having thus initiated "launch control", the driver would be able to make a fully automatic start. Such a start is clearly a driver aid as it operates the clutch, changes gear and uses traction control by modulating engine power (by changing ignition or fuel settings), in response to wheel speed."

http://www.motorspor...-press-release/

Edited by 1Devil1, 07 November 2012 - 18:44.

"Having thus initiated "launch control", the driver would be able to make a fully automatic start. Such a start is clearly a driver aid as it operates the clutch, changes gear and uses traction control by modulating engine power (by changing ignition or fuel settings), in response to wheel speed."

http://www.motorspor...-press-release/

In order to enable "launch control", a particular menu with ten options, has to be selected on the PC screen. "Launch control" is not visibly listed as an option. The menu was so arranged that, after ten items, nothing further appeared. If however, the operator scrolled down the menu beyond the tenth listed option, to option 13, launch control can be enabled, even though this is not visible on the screen. No satisfactory explanation was offered for this apparent attempt to conceal the feature.

Edited by LiJu914, 07 November 2012 - 19:36.

I am aware of such things, but you tried a cheap game here. Engines were not the factor for being the best team or not. You needed a good aerodynamic, traction control and active suspension and Formula One was heading the domination of aerodynamic even in this days. I never denied that engines were more important in comparison to today but you came around and make it look like all you needed was the better engine to be ahead of the other team. That's simple not true. Some people technics said the Benetton of 1994 was better than the 1995 car because it was not so nervous because of a better torque. So your HP mathematic is too simple in every view. Benetton had perhaps a little advantage in the sector engines but you completely failed to say something about the others.

...
Launch control operates by using an electronic-driven accelerator and a computer program. The software drives the accelerator according to engine specifications to make the car accelerate smoothly and as fast as possible, avoiding spinning of the drive wheels, engine failure due to over-revving, and clutch and gearbox problems. This feature is only available at the start of the race, when the car is stopped in the starting grid. After the car is running at a certain speed, the software is disabled.
....

Btw. Still nobody explained to me, why MSC didn´t have a particularly good start in Imola (not better than Senna and worse than Berger) and why one can clearly see the Benetton´s rear-tyres spinning at the re-start (and Berger overtaking MSC in the process).
I also just watched some footage of the race itself and waited until i could see signs of power-oversteer from the Benetton out of slower corners. It didn´t take longer than two minutes (for those who´re interested: here´s the vid click skip to 1min50sec).

Obviously Benetton´s launch-control and their imaginary traction-control weren´t really high-tech.

The B-194 was supposedly a difficult car to drive according to I believe Jos Verstappen, but he also said last year Schumacher's car was outfitted with traction control. Sure people will say it's sour grapes, and that he was slower than Michael, but Cheating Tom had no problem signing such a slow driver to go run with Arrows for a bit.

Edited by LiJu914, 07 November 2012 - 19:47.

You ignore that one of the Benetton mechanics said the B-194 had everything but cruise control...I think he would have been in a better position to speak than you. It's actually mentioned in the article I posted.

Edited by LiJu914, 07 November 2012 - 19:52.

...
Launch control operates by using an electronic-driven accelerator and a computer program. The software drives the accelerator according to engine specifications to make the car accelerate smoothly and as fast as possible, avoiding spinning of the drive wheels, engine failure due to over-revving, and clutch and gearbox problems. This feature is only available at the start of the race, when the car is stopped in the starting grid. After the car is running at a certain speed, the software is disabled.
....

I'm not aware that you can have launch control without traction control. Is it not a critical component?

"In the past this technology was also used in 'launch control' systems, which allowed drivers to make optimum starts"

http://www.formula1....sport/5278.html

The big difference between Benetton and modern-day cheaters Red Bull (flexi wings, illegal mapping, double diffusers when they're banned) is that at least Benetton had a livery that looked nice.

The fact that the Benetton spun its wheels at the start and also showed power-oversteer during accelarations is undeniable. Do you know why? Because you can see it with your eyes.

Your "Benetton mechanic" on the other hand only appears in one article written by some journo, and surprisingly has no name.

Edited by BoschKurve, 07 November 2012 - 21:16.

LOL,

How sad it is that some try to go back 20 years to cite instances of cheating, when things that happen this season are so easily glossed over....

What's the matter, your fragile narrative suddenly doesn't stand up, so you start crying that the mechanic has no name?

Not all sources are named due to possible repercussions against the source. I thought this was common knowledge? It would make even more sense if the source was still working in F1 at the time the article was written, which clearly is the case.

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 00:14.

You can spin in every you like it. Good for you that you believe everything what´s in the newspapers.
Doesn´t change the fact that a statement doesn´t proof anything, which was allegedly made by a anonymous person and which isn´t not even noted as a statement, which was adressed to the author in person.

It´s quite telling, that you have no answer to a simple question of mine. Shall i repeat it? Do you have at least a somewhat plausible theory, why one can witness the Benettons rear-tyres spinning during the Imola race despite an alleged use of LC/TC?

Talk is cheap.

I think we can stop discussing at this point, as i doubt anybody will convince the other guy.

You know, my world wouldn´t come to an end, if there would be clear evidence, that Benetton used a TC. I admired MSC´s skills as a driver - and the same was true for Senna. But i never tried to deny/defend/talk down etc. that they had poor race ethics and that several of the notorious on-track incidents were done deliberately. So if the allegations someday actually turned out to be true, it would change very little for me - so i´m quite relaxed about that. Most of the drivers, i support(ed), are/were neither heros nor perfect (Alonso would be the next one...;) ) But in that case, i just don´t see it - resp. the details, which i have avaible as an outsider, lead me to the opposite assumption.

Especially if the source is as unreliable as the infamous BusinessF1 Magazine. They were known mainly for being sued all the time. They lost pretty much all lawsuits and went bankrupt due to unpaid libel damages.

Libel laws in the UK are a joke.

I'm sure you knew that.

Edited by ThomFi, 08 November 2012 - 03:48.

Was it really a pig to handle at the limit? 3 consecutive pole positions suggests otherwise, especially when you consider that Senna had only scored two in the previous two seasons. So he made a mistake in Brazil, it happens, it is no proof that the car was difficult to drive.

Edited by seahawk, 08 November 2012 - 07:40.

Btw. Still nobody explained to me, why MSC didn´t have a particularly good start in Imola (not better than Senna and worse than Berger) and why one can clearly see the Benetton´s rear-tyres spinning at the re-start (and Berger overtaking MSC in the process).

Easy enough. Senna had claimed Benetton were using TC at Aida. So they turned it off for Imola.;)

It was not in the FIA's interests though to find Senna was killed trying to keep ahead of an illegal car.

Explain Brazil then please.

Explain Brazil then please.

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 08:57.

That Senna spun off trying to keep up with an illegal car?

Oh yeah it handled like a complete pig, was really sensitive to set-up changes and snapped between understeer and oversteer with frightening regularity. Damon Hill (a top driver and one with great development talent) found it impossible to drive on the limit, hence his struggles till the revised FW16. The Williams Renault FW16 was quick, no doubt about that, problem was to unleash its potential took a driver of Senna's majestic ability and even he could only tame it for short bursts, hence the 3 pole positions.

It was not in the FIA's interests though to find Senna was killed trying to keep ahead of an illegal car.

Trying to pin Senna's death on the Benneton B194 is completely pathetic

I think you can say the same about the B194 and B195. The few drivers who have driven / tested these cars (apart from Schumacher) will testify about how difficult it was to drive them. Read Gerhard Berger's book, he has some not so good things to say about how the 1995 car handled when he tested it.

I think you can say the same about the B194 and B195. The few drivers who have driven / tested these cars (apart from Schumacher) will testify about how difficult it was to drive them. Read Gerhard Berger's book, he has some not so good things to say about how the 1995 car handled when he tested it.

"It was a hard year last year," Johnny said in February 1996. "From the start, there seemed to be rumours that every race would be my last race. It was stupid and it must have been coming from somewhere. Looking back on it, I think it affected my performances and upset me psychologically. I really lost all the enjoyment out of racing. I hardly spoke to Flavio Briatore, the managing director, in the second half of the season and it was very difficult."

In late 1998, reflecting further on his time at Benetton, Johnny told F1 Racing magazine:

"I never had a problem with Michael - it was the team. He'd ask to stay in the car for another two days at a test and they'd say, 'Okay Michael, no problem'. At the four day pre-Silverstone test in 1995, when I went on to win the race, I only did half a day's testing. I think he'd had enough on the final afternoon, so I was allowed in.

"The trouble all started after I qualified fourth in the first race in Brazil. Then we went on to Argentina, where I was quicker than him in the first session. That night he told the team that he didn't want me to see his data any more. The next morning he came over to me and said, 'I'm sure you accept you'll have secrets from me and I'll have some from you so you'll understand if I don't show you my data in future'. But, of course, he still had access to all of my data. What could I do about it? Nothing. I had no say in the matter."

Easy enough. Senna had claimed Benetton were using TC at Aida. So they turned it off for Imola.;)

It was not in the FIA's interests though to find Senna was killed trying to keep ahead of an illegal car.

Herbert was pretty rapid in the B194 straight away.

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 09:53.

Did he claim they had TC or LC?

You're not serious with that second part, i hope?

Rubython's business f1 as a valid source, are you kidding me.
It's like citing a story of Fox News in a political discussion.

I don't think anyone is trying to do that. More that it wouldn't look terribly good if its found that Senna crashed whilst trying to outrace an illegal car.

Edited by LiJu914, 08 November 2012 - 10:25.

I don't think anyone is trying to do that. More that it wouldn't look terribly good if its found that Senna crashed whilst trying to outrace an illegal car.

Michael Schumacher about his nickname Schummel-Schumi and the claims he and (Benetton) cheated

"At no time was such that we have cheated, that was not so easy.

Someone wanted us to believe is simply part of the machinery of the Formula 1, where no one begrudge the other something."

I would want to make it quite clear that this has nothing to do with me and that I'm not happy about it."

Sounds like Lance Armstrong talking!
It was well documented and proven afterwards that Benetoon was using illegal traction control at that time. A couple of years ago, Schummi's 1995 title winning Benetton was auctioned with traction control, quite strange, since it was forbidden then no?

I seem to remember the listing advertised it as totally authentic right down to the electronics. A major publication discussed it as an interest story but considering this car was sold 15 or so years after it was used, I doubt they would be too worried about giving any secrets away through their coding.

Oh well thats that sorted then.

Its almost as if the rest of the thread hasn't happened.

There's 2 sides to this statement:

I would have loved to see Damon Hill take the title, come Adelaide, but the Williams driver only got to that point in the championship table, because of Schumacher's Silverstone disqualification and his 2-race ban late in the season. If those DQs hadn't happened, it's likely that Schumacher would've wrapped up the title at least 1 or 2 Grands Prix prior to the final race.

You could argue, though, that Schumacher's DQs weren't for nought. He and/or his team broke the rules, and he/they were punished. And because of that, Hill/Williams reigning the German in, in the WDC/WCC table, was just as right.

What happened, happened. And we all know that the 1994 title was Senna's. (Runs. Hides.)

Edited by pUs, 08 November 2012 - 14:09.

Sounds like Lance Armstrong talking!
It was well documented and proven afterwards that Benetoon was using illegal traction control at that time. A couple of years ago, Schummi's 1995 title winning Benetton was auctioned with traction control, quite strange, since it was forbidden then no?

Edited by 1Devil1, 08 November 2012 - 13:51.

Because... the software LDRA analysed was from the Imola-race. If the FIA tried to cover up something, why did they publish, that they´d found a launch control device in that software sample?

"The trouble all started after I qualified fourth in the first race in Brazil. Then we went on to Argentina, where I was quicker than him in the first session. That night he told the team that he didn't want me to see his data any more."

Oh well thats that sorted then.

It was a matter of fact that it was there. How dangerous would it have been for the FIA to find it and say nothing about it? It would have meant that the FIA were a hostage to fortune - any disgruntled ex-employee could have spilt the beans.

Sounds like Lance Armstrong talking!
It was well documented and proven afterwards that Benetoon was using illegal traction control at that time. A couple of years ago, Schummi's 1995 title winning Benetton was auctioned with traction control, quite strange, since it was forbidden then no?

(3) In his mind Michael Schumacher cannot conceive he has ever done anything wrong.