Making Electric Vehicles work!

Yes, cell phones can stay charged for much longer today. But this is not because of larger capacity batteries, but more energy efficient cell phones.

Batteries have improved too. Don`t be silly.

Are you seriously suggesting that the ludicrous, ugly, cripplingly expensive wind-farms are not subsidized? The only reason they are being built is for the subsidy.

I have not addressed wind farms. I was addressing solar and battery technology, both of which have nearly daily breakthroughs in massive efficiency, but nothing is made of it unless the technology is bought by China. As I said, expect to see cheap, efficient solar panels in WalMart one day - and don't don't complain about it.

The U.S. is owned by the oil and banking industry. If something doesn't benefit one of those two, it doesn't get any government attention at all. Strategically it should, in that once again the U.S. will be giving up a technology to another country. Except that's a ruse, it's not "giving it up", it's selling it. There is a reason China has a law about Chinese industry only using Chinese-sourced green technology - they're thinking about *their* future, nobody in the west that can do something about it cares - because they've already "gotten theirs".

Having said that, Germany seems to be doing quite well with their wind farms, as is places in the U.S. where it has made sense. Electrons coming out of your outlet work the same whether they originated with coal, nuclear, wind or solar. Solar is already at coal matching prices, it's ridiculous the U.S. - or any other country, doesn't get behind cornering the market while they can by scaling up mass production. Somebody is going to do it, and it's probably going to be China.

[quote name='gruntguru' date='Jan 2 2013, 15:51' post='6085227']
Don't be too quick to use the "never" word.
http://rense.com/general81/dw.htm

The list of predictions that turned out to be very wrong was interesting. I wonder if there is a similar list of predictions that turned out to be correct. The future (or at least , 50 years in the future) to me seems to be almost totally unpredictable.

The list of predictions that turned out to be very wrong was interesting. I wonder if there is a similar list of predictions that turned out to be correct. The future (or at least , 50 years in the future) to me seems to be almost totally unpredictable.

When it comes to technology, "fantastic" predictions are often ultimately correct (think Jules Verne) wheras naysayers who choose to use the "never" word, are on very shaky ground.

I have not addressed wind farms. I was addressing solar and battery technology, both of which have nearly daily breakthroughs in massive efficiency, but nothing is made of it unless the technology is bought by China. As I said, expect to see cheap, efficient solar panels in WalMart one day - and don't don't complain about it.

The U.S. is owned by the oil and banking industry. If something doesn't benefit one of those two, it doesn't get any government attention at all. Strategically it should, in that once again the U.S. will be giving up a technology to another country. Except that's a ruse, it's not "giving it up", it's selling it. There is a reason China has a law about Chinese industry only using Chinese-sourced green technology - they're thinking about *their* future, nobody in the west that can do something about it cares - because they've already "gotten theirs".

Having said that, Germany seems to be doing quite well with their wind farms, as is places in the U.S. where it has made sense. Electrons coming out of your outlet work the same whether they originated with coal, nuclear, wind or solar. Solar is already at coal matching prices, it's ridiculous the U.S. - or any other country, doesn't get behind cornering the market while they can by scaling up mass production. Somebody is going to do it, and it's probably going to be China.

Cheap Chinese made solar panels are what most of the world uses now!! Some are far better quality than others.Some last 12 months, some last flat out 12 years. They are though a small part of the cost, the inverters, cabling, mounting, and the so called smart electricity meters are the real cost.
But without rediculous subsidys solar is not viable, and just pushes up the price of electricity for the rest of the consumers.

Solar hot water only can be a bit different but even then still is only good for about half the year here in sunny Oz, hopeless in cold dark northern hemisphere locations.And the panels have to be replaced on a regular basis.

Personally I am very annoyed having to subsidise the minority for so called 'green' energy. Which is probably less green than coal fired power stations.

Maybe if someone builds a huge efficient solar plant it may be more efficient and cheaper too. Anything done on a large scale is always going to be far more efficient. It has been done in several countrys on a smallish scale and it seems to be still unviable. And still only works when the sun is shining. Unless they effectivly double the output of a commercial solar plant it is not really viable.
As for wind, it too is very expensive. Read my previuos post. I have studied this at depth, Not listened to political spin.

they are working on short term high cycle batterys
one system uses iron in a long discharge capacitor like roll

it works for regen braking and acceleration hi discharge uses
and saves the life of current battery types like Li or nicad

why the over weight and sized car needs to be copyed in an electric car ?
I would love to see a lotus 7 size and style electric or even smaller
maybe a f500 sized single!

btw our local small town has a golf cart fad going now
nothing is far here most trips are a mile or less
and our town made unlicensed carts street legal recently
so numbers are growing and we have no golf course near here!

What tune is that set to?

What tune is that set to?

In a gadda da vida

In my head it was gangnam style. Very catchy.

In my head it was gangnam style. Very catchy.

I've just ordered the boxed set of Pink Floyd studio albums.

Pink Floyd blaring from an electric car... just think

Pink Floyd blaring from an electric car... just think

I was thinking ELO

ok I guess I was encouraging the song bs

but what about golf carts by far the most common electric vehicle
as local transport
is my town on to a trend or what

and are there non-toy small electric cars esp of a sporting flavor

It may turn out to be easily fixed but the Lithium - Ion battery problems which have grounded the Boeing 787 worldwide suggest that technology is still not 100% reliable which has implications for EV usage.

OT but s**t, Boeing is looking down a very deep and steep cliff.

OT but s**t, Boeing is looking down a very deep and steep cliff.

nah. they will make it.

OT but s**t, Boeing is looking down a very deep and steep cliff.

Boeing will be fine. The commercial aircraft division of Boeing is still delivering around 35 737s per month, with a profit of around $10M per aircraft. Not to mention the dozens of 777s and 747s they also deliver each month.

The worst case scenario with the 787 battery is Boeing having to replace the lithium battery with a more conventional battery type. It would require a slight redesign and re-certification effort, but it would not be too difficult. Every commercial aircraft built has used some sort of electrical battery. The main problem for Boeing would be the cost penalties from delivery delays of new aircraft, and the compensation payments to the operators of the grounded aircraft.

Does the electric car work? Well, Jay Leno seems to think whatever the problem was is solved:

So now we know the problem was not price (at least for Jay).

Great vid Good to watch his other stuff too thanks for sharing. Love the Tesla sedan. Jay Leno is as big a petrol head as you'll find so should somewhat calming for electro-cynics. As for the design it feels like a Panamera crossed with a Jag XF. Not a terrible thing but they could have been a tad more original. The interior looked impressive too, huge interactive screen. You'd think they'd be trying to save as much power as possible.

I drove a Prius T Spirit 1.8VVTi CVT the other day for work and really enjoyed the driving experience. It was extremely stress free and calming and by no means slow. In PWR (power) mode it was very responsive and super quick off the line at London traffic lights. Trick rear parking camera too. Not really any more efficient than a small diesel though.

I would drive that Tesla without reservation. It's a very nice looking sedan whether it's derived, cloned, copied or inspired by the existing market offerings. And why wouldn't it be? The car's originality is not it's shape, it's its execution as an electric car. I like it.

Edited to add:

Having just watched the unveiling video for their Model X, I would say that for me, they've made it work. That is the vehicle I've been looking for all this time. Seats 7, AWD, minivan or more luggage capacity, thoughtful design around living life with kids and it break the bank trying to fuel it up. As a Canadian, I'm used to plugging in my car every night for part of the year. The claimed range of 480 km (max, pie-in-the-sky range I assume) is far more than we drive in a 24 hour period except for the biannual drive out to the coast.

Downsides I'm sure will include price - none listed but Tesla isn't known for being inexpensive. The "falcon wing" door design means no roof racks but we don't use one now so may or may not be an issue. Of course, there's always the question if the battery pack replacement as well. I'm not certain but I assume one can put a hitch on it to tow light trailers (thinking a family-load of bicycles and camping gear).

All in all, it is the best compromise of the things we're after. Inside space big, outside size small, AWD, 7 passenger, not gasoline. Of course with no price it remains to be seen whether the up-front cost of the vehicle and it's running cost is less than a cheaper, gasoline vehicle. I'm guessing not but then that gasoline vehicle isn't likely to be 7-passenger with mid-4 second 0-60 either.

Edited by Canuck, 26 January 2013 - 19:18.

The 300miles/480km range for the 85kw/h battery pack is claimed to be true if you drive at a steady 55mph/88kmh under ideal conditions. You can go longer if you lower the speed, but it's true that most of the time your range will be shorter. Towing a trailer will ofcourse take it's toll on the range. I would check up on it before making an decisions. How much shorter and how far between superchargers?

About replacement batteries::
"We have received many requests for a Battery Replacement Option. We are happy to now offer this option for all three battery variants. This option will provide you a new battery anytime after the end of the eighth year at a fixed price. Prices are as follows: $8,000 for the 40 kWh battery, $10,000 for the 60 kWh battery, and $12,000 for the 85 kWh battery. You will be able to purchase this additional option through your MyTesla page in the near future."

Nissan should be commended for making the only real electric car from scratch, and not a conversion, out of the traditional carmakers. Still I feel it is a halfhearted attempt and they where too cought in market thinking to make it as good as it could be. They have in a sense shoot themselfes in the foot by trying to squeeze the technology into a certain price range and going for the "eco-car" market dominated by the Prius. Look at what Tesla has done with the Model S. By going for the premium market they have managed to make an electric car that is sexy and that have a much, much more usable range. You can say it's the only BEV that is a "real" car. Interestingly, while the Leaf is expensive compared to say a VW Golf, the Model S is competitivly prices compared to say a BMW 5-series.

Commended? they should be pilloried as the car does not give the advertised range. Like most electric cars.

The 300miles/480km range for the 85kw/h battery pack is claimed to be true if you drive at a steady 55mph/88kmh under ideal conditions. You can go longer if you lower the speed, but it's true that most of the time your range will be shorter. Towing a trailer will ofcourse take it's toll on the range. I would check up on it before making an decisions. How much shorter and how far between superchargers?

About replacement batteries::
"We have received many requests for a Battery Replacement Option. We are happy to now offer this option for all three battery variants. This option will provide you a new battery anytime after the end of the eighth year at a fixed price. Prices are as follows: $8,000 for the 40 kWh battery, $10,000 for the 60 kWh battery, and $12,000 for the 85 kWh battery. You will be able to purchase this additional option through your MyTesla page in the near future."

Who does 55mph on the open road? Do 70-75 to keep up with the traffic [including trucks] and you will realistically get 200 miles. A longer commute! Then you have to charge it to go home.
And 12k for the battery makes it like a phone, cheaper to buy a new one. And with those costs hanging over your head resale is about 25cents!

Who buys an electric car for the open road? I don't spend a lot of time on the open road, nor do my wife and kids. They drive the 10 km to school and back, over to the skating the rink, the shops and so forth. I'd be surprised if they managed 50 km on a given day. The grandparents are 110 km away on a highway with a cruise speed of 120 to 125 km/h for the bulk of traffic. 90-95% of our lives is well within electric car use (assuming equivalent performance on winter). I lived in the far north where the nearest major centre was 12 hours away. That's not a trip I'd undertake with it. On the other hand, given a total road network of less 100 km in the town, it's would be a perfect daily driver.

Electric cars are not all things yet - perhaps never. I live in a two-car family but my car spends most of it's time quietly rusting away as I pound out the miles on my bike. Her car needs to get our kids around in safety and economy and do the usual groceries / scouts / dog / sports trips. I'm vain enough that I'd like it to have style (which, as an old Previa is does not but it's a RWD stick at least). It does not need to tow a 40 foot race car trailer or offshore powerboat. It
Doesn't need to be capable of travelling from Calgary to Vancouver in a single shot (I don't want to be trapped in
any vehicle with my three kids for that long!), nor cruise 500 miles at 80 mph. Because I don't drive every day, I can have the earth-moving, mountain-towing, seats an adult hockey-team and carries their gear type vehicle. It'll spend most of it's life waiting but so what? Not much different than having the one parked there now.

lol, am I being targeted?

Who does 55mph on the open road? Do 70-75 to keep up with the traffic [including trucks] and you will realistically get 200 miles. A longer commute! Then you have to charge it to go home.
And 12k for the battery makes it like a phone, cheaper to buy a new one. And with those costs hanging over your head resale is about 25cents!

According to Tesla you get 240 miles of range at 70 mph. Anyway, with the expanding network of superchargers it's a moot point.

The battery warranty is 8 years with unlimited miles for the 85kwh. Tesla though expect a majority of customers to get at least ten years of use before a change is needed. The quoted price is for customers who want to buy a replacement battery at the same time as the new car. It's a requested option from reservation holders. They see it as a way to ensure re-sale value. Though, who knows now what the real cost will be 10 years down the road? It must have been difficult for Tesla to set a price in advance.

Commended? they should be pilloried as the car does not give the advertised range. Like most electric cars.

Commended for having the guts, IMHO.

It does give the advertised range, you just have to drive it a certain way. Don't forget, it's the same with the mpg on a conventional car. Hammer the gas and you'll get nowhere near the advertised numbers.

Commended for having the guts, IMHO.

It does give the advertised range, you just have to drive it a certain way. Don't forget, it's the same with the mpg on a conventional car. Hammer the gas and you'll get nowhere near the advertised numbers.

Drive it very slowly, not in hot weather or very cold. yeah a great asset. And a petrol car usually can find a petrol station and refuel and go in under 5min. A recharge station for Nissan? In Adelaide I am struggling to find a Nissan dealer in that range. There is maybe 3!

As for commutes, many people I know spend an hour plus morning and night going to work. stop start kills fuel consumption, battery, petrol, diesel even steam! Meaning they may struggle to get home at night on the battery.
And before any clown says take transport that means 2 hours each way, then a walk or drive still. When transport is actually running.

Drive it very slowly....

If you read my original post about the Leaf again maybe you will notice that I am critical of Nissan and the car. It is very much limited in range, indeed like most other electrical cars. The only exception so far seems to me and many other people to be the Tesla cars. That begs the question, why is it only Tesla that can do electrical cars right?

Electric vehicles aren't suited for me, therefore they aren't suited for anybody!

I noticed at the Goodwood FOS several companies (Lotus was one, see link below) were showing small petrol engines, designed for electric cars as a backup either driving a generator or the wheels directly. The disadvantage over a straight electric vehicle is the extra weight that has to be carried combined with the extra cost.
Ideally a direct drive seems the best solution (like the Prius) as this will be the most efficient for long journeys.
Jaguar were planning on a gas turbine hybrid as this would be the lightest solution.

I wonder if Tesla will ever offer a petrol backup engine for longer journeys. The trick is to make the engine and generator as light as possible but still return good economy when the batteries are flat. I think the psychological advantage of having a petrol engine in reserve would be a very important factor for many people even if it never gets used.


http://www.green-car...ctric-cars.html

Edited by scolbourne, 28 January 2013 - 06:09.

Who buys an electric car for the open road? I don't spend a lot of time on the open road, nor do my wife and kids. They drive the 10 km to school and back, over to the skating the rink, the shops and so forth. I'd be surprised if they managed 50 km on a given day. The grandparents are 110 km away on a highway with a cruise speed of 120 to 125 km/h for the bulk of traffic. 90-95% of our lives is well within electric car use (assuming equivalent performance on winter). I lived in the far north where the nearest major centre was 12 hours away. That's not a trip I'd undertake with it. On the other hand, given a total road network of less 100 km in the town, it's would be a perfect daily driver.

Electric cars are not all things yet - perhaps never. I live in a two-car family but my car spends most of it's time quietly rusting away as I pound out the miles on my bike. Her car needs to get our kids around in safety and economy and do the usual groceries / scouts / dog / sports trips. I'm vain enough that I'd like it to have style (which, as an old Previa is does not but it's a RWD stick at least). It does not need to tow a 40 foot race car trailer or offshore powerboat. It
Doesn't need to be capable of travelling from Calgary to Vancouver in a single shot (I don't want to be trapped in
any vehicle with my three kids for that long!), nor cruise 500 miles at 80 mph.

I mostly rent for out of town esp for longer trips anyway
nice new car with no worrys

btw other then very high priced truck rental like U-hall/ryder/pesky
few rental places have pick-ups to tow what ever for rent with a hitch

I wonder how far they will stretch the ''golf-cart'' rule
I thinking something like a small buggy/ off road go-cart
that would be fun

In France one will see very small cars on the road that do not require licences to drive them. I have a cousin living in Frnace who thinks that they are a total menace!

Drive it very slowly, not in hot weather or very cold. yeah a great asset......

You have pointed out one of the most troublesome issues with EVs. With an EV like the Leaf, if you put 4 adults in the vehicle and run the AC on a hot summer day, you'll be lucky to get half of the published range at highway speeds. And once you run out of electrons, you're stuck for a long time waiting for a recharge. At best EVs are only suitable as a second vehicle for those with enough disposable income to afford such a luxury.

I noticed at the Goodwood FOS several companies (Lotus was one, see link below) were showing small petrol engines, designed for electric cars as a backup either driving a generator or the wheels directly. The disadvantage over a straight electric vehicle is the extra weight that has to be carried combined with the extra cost.
Ideally a direct drive seems the best solution (like the Prius) as this will be the most efficient for long journeys.
Jaguar were planning on a gas turbine hybrid as this would be the lightest solution.

I wonder if Tesla will ever offer a petrol backup engine for longer journeys. The trick is to make the engine and generator as light as possible but still return good economy when the batteries are flat. I think the psychological advantage of having a petrol engine in reserve would be a very important factor for many people even if it never gets used.


http://www.green-car...ctric-cars.html

The Top Gear guys bulit one, an electric car with a petrol generator. Worked a treat for about 2 miles.
But the object of the exercise is not to use petrol, or make green house gases etc. Every electric vehicle defeats the object of the exercise. And that is without the extra waste, the extra inherent danger of acid injurys and more chance of fire. And the list goes on
Leave elctric for Gophers, golf carts, milk floats and the like. And run your car on petroleum, it works and the distribution is far simpler.
Also Gophers, having been nearly run over by one this morning in the shopping mall lets have some rules for their use. 9/10 of the operators can walk so should not even be in the shops with them. And they should be trained liscenced operators with numberplates.
Lets have Gopher parks in the immediate vicinity of the mall doors and get these menaces out of the shops.
My neighbor was injured when one ran over her foot, a month hobbling around so it is not a joke. And the fat old woman rider could walk fine, just too bloody lazy too.

You have pointed out one of the most troublesome issues with EVs. With an EV like the Leaf, if you put 4 adults in the vehicle and run the AC on a hot summer day, you'll be lucky to get half of the published range at highway speeds. And once you run out of electrons, you're stuck for a long time waiting for a recharge. At best EVs are only suitable as a second vehicle for those with enough disposable income to afford such a luxury.

And the cold kills the batterys, as does extreme heat.Prime operating temps I guess between 8 and 30 deg C. Unfortunatly virtually every country, and locality has a bigger temp range.
But they are as green as the smokestack at the local electricity plant!!

Indeed. Tesla both heats and cools the battery packs in the Model S and X. But current EV technology is not a panacea so you know, **** it. Forget about it. It doesn't solve every single scenario we throw at it so let's just stick to the devil we know. Damn horseless carriages, making all kinds of racket and unnecessary noise. Ruffians driving wild and out of control, scaring the horses. And that stuff they use - gasoline. Why one gallon of that evil devil's piss has got more energy than 60 sticks of dynamite!!! And we're letting these on our streets? Around our wives and children? We must ban them immediately!

And the cold kills the batterys, as does extreme heat.Prime operating temps I guess between 8 and 30 deg C. Unfortunatly virtually every country, and locality has a bigger temp range.
But they are as green as the smokestack at the local electricity plant!!

I don't claim that EVs have no place in the automotive market. On the contrary, I think that that EVs indeed do have a place for certain uses. But given the current state of automotive technology, conventional IC engines still give a far better combination of cost, practicality and efficiency for most people.

However, this situation may change in the future if automotive battery technology makes a big improvement.

I don't claim that EVs have no place in the automotive market. On the contrary, I think that that EVs indeed do have a place for certain uses. But given the current state of automotive technology, conventional IC engines still give a far better combination of cost, practicality and efficiency for most people.

However, this situation may change in the future if automotive battery technology makes a big improvement.

Essentally you are correct. Current battery technology dictates that if you want to make a BEV that comes close to a IC car in practical range it will have to be priced in the premium segment. That is exactly what Tesla has made with the Model S. It's interesting to note that each battery option represent an increase in price by $10.000, but few customers seem to settle for the standard 40kwh. For the European market Tesla offer the 60kwh as standard and the 85kwh battery pack as option. Why didn't Nissan offer an optional more powerful batterypack for the Leaf? I guess, simply because it would increase price too much for a vehicle in it's price range. People who can afford to buy premium want the best, cost is not that much of an issue. I think Tesla got the right idea. Build a really good desirable BEV that many people would want though not all can afford. Nissan made an affordable BEV that not that many people actually want to buy. Of course, in actual numbers the Leaf outsell the Model S, but success is relative anyway.

Indeed. Tesla both heats and cools the battery packs in the Model S and X. But current EV technology is not a panacea so you know, **** it. Forget about it. It doesn't solve every single scenario we throw at it so let's just stick to the devil we know. Damn horseless carriages, making all kinds of racket and unnecessary noise. Ruffians driving wild and out of control, scaring the horses. And that stuff they use - gasoline. Why one gallon of that evil devil's piss has got more energy than 60 sticks of dynamite!!! And we're letting these on our streets? Around our wives and children? We must ban them immediately!

Reading in the news today that Airbus have cancelled plans to use lithium batterys in their new planes and are going back to Nicad. After Boeing recalling the 787s after battery fires causing emergency landings . Evidently the batterys can short out internally.
So how safe are these cars? if the aircraft industry have problems in very large planes where there is plenty of room to store the batterys properly How do they go in a car where the packaging is a real problem? This is without all the other issues that electric cars have.
And the lithium batterys are essential even for a remotely decent range.
There has also been reports of phone batterys shorting out and causing fires too, on charge in an office enviroment. on the manufacturers charger. Normally mine sits on the metal computer box when on charge, less flammable material there. This is something I have been aware of for a long time.
I have seen one catch fire a long time ago. When lithium battery where first introduced.
phones ofcourse are subjected to being dropped, overheated [in your pocket] occasionally frozen and generally abused. Just like what happens in a motor vehicle!

Hey - have you heard? There's this liquid explosive being pumped the entire length of road-going vehicles from back to front and back again. Not only are the lines they pump the fuel through on the underside of the vehicle, exposed to the elements and subject to damage from all sorts of debris, but it's under huge pressure too so it's not like it's just leaking out under head pressure. New DI fuel pressures are significantly higher meaning that a leak under under the hood will be catastrophic! A rolling, high-speed fireball is what they are. Death traps. I saw one burn due to a fuel leak when I was a kid.

I saw one burn due to a fuel leak when I was a kid.

Beetle?

A friend of mine that i went to school with made a Turbo E30 325(somthing) And i told him during the build that he should remove the stupid sound isolation in the engine room.

He did not and halv a year later just minutes after the goverment had approved the car for the road.. it took fire... and that sound isolation sure did burn good. newly painted car and everything.

The 787 batteries are a particular chemistry not much used in cars. They were Lithium Ion, aka LION, specifically LiCoO2, whereas Lithium Iron Poly LiFePO4 is a more common chemistry for large packs these days. Boeing still claim to be on top of the problem, a curious response IMO. Airbus seem to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater and are claiming to go back to NiCd, bizarrely.

Let's face it if something fails on a plane it's a lot more serious than it failing on a car. Even if the car starts to burn chances are you'll stop and get out unharmed. On a plane...

The 787 batteries are a particular chemistry not much used in cars. They were Lithium Ion, aka LION, specifically LiCoO2, whereas Lithium Iron Poly LiFePO4 is a more common chemistry for large packs these days. Boeing still claim to be on top of the problem, a curious response IMO. Airbus seem to have thrown the baby out with the bathwater and are claiming to go back to NiCd, bizarrely.

Indeed. You have to wonder how much of this is Boeing vs. Airbus Media Theatre.

There are always advances like this happening; presuming technology is at a standstill is ignorance:


USC battery breakthrough

I doubt many here think that technology is at a standstill, he says typing away on a throwaway netbook on a wireless internet connection, both things that 10 years ago were far from ubiquitous. The only place we see large scale technology freezes is F1, bizarrely.