Making Electric Vehicles work!

Hey - now that's using your noodle.

I suppose you could recharge a capacitor bank at home even when the car isn't there and then use that to quick charge the capacitors in the car for a quick getaway.

If you had such a storage device at home you could also recharge it at off-peak prices and sell the energy back to the utility at peak rates.

If you had such a storage device at home you could also recharge it at off-peak prices and sell the energy back to the utility at peak rates.

And if the storage device was large enough you could make enough money to buy gasoline and not have to worry about charging an electric car.

^

I was driving a hybrid last week. The alternator died in my Ford Telstar so I had to take a battery charger to work and plug the car in to get enough power to make it home.

If you had such a storage device at home you could also recharge it at off-peak prices and sell the energy back to the utility at peak rates.

Unfortunately, this is not the way things work here in the US at present. This is similar to how utilities handle the output from residential solar systems. If you have a PV solar system that is grid-connected, your monthly bill is based on your net monthly usage shown by the meter. And even if you produce more power than you use for the month, you are not paid for that surplus power. Additionally, here in California residential utility power prices are based on a tiered rate structure, and not a demand-based rate structure. The tiered rate structure bases rates on how much power is used. You are allotted a baseline amount of power each month at a low rate. Any power usage above the baseline is priced at 4 tier levels with steeply higher rates. If you need to recharge your EV more than about 3 or 4 times per month, you will easily exceed the baseline limit. Tier 2 kW-hr rates are about 25% higher than baseline, and tier 3 rates are about 50% higher.

To be honest, here in California it would be far more economical to purchase a NG Honda Civic. You can fuel the car at home using Honda's compressor system, with NG supplied by the gas utility. Residential NG is subject to price controls so prices are very stable, plus it is not subject to the huge sales and excise taxes paid on gasoline and diesel.

I can't imagine the good folks in the gov. letting that go on for long. Purple gas, farm diesel etc.

The latest pronoucement from the EU Transprt commisioner ( the guy in charge of transport legistlation for all the EU).

http://www.trl.co.uk...t_801554909.htm

Basically, we will pass laws to make you drive electric cars but " private industry" will pay so we dont have to fund the cost .

Despite a range of models now available electric car sales in the EU are , effectively, zero.

I'm not saying if they are good or bad but nobody much buys them.

What annoys me about the EU is that they pass a law imposing CAFE type fuel economy regulations stretching out several years which is already dramatically reducing car CO2 then see the need to introduce another law five minutes later. - crazy.

There is a bigger issue now loaming in the EU because fuel taxes are very high and pay for a lot of govt spending. Without getting all political you could say simply that the EU has " free" state medical care funded by $8.50/gallon fuel whereas the US has "no" state medical care but $3.50/gallon fuel.

Im not taking sides in THAT debate but it sort of highlights the problem now facing EU governments - success at reducing car CO2 will drive down government revenue and that will force cuts in critical budgets. The Uk response is to look at switching fuel duty to road pricing etc but then the ecnomics of electric cars collapse because the fuel differnece no longer includes the $5/gallon tax unique to non-electic cars

Maybe the Eu commisioner can see that problem coming so needs to mandate electric cars as they lose that tax advantage versus petrol/diesel!

Tesla are already doing much better than that, with a heavy. high performance car.
. . . . . . .
. . . and yes, it does have air conditioning.

No they don't.

Even with a very generous efficency ratio of 3 to 1, a battery with 50 kWh of useful electricity is still no more than the equivalent of 15 liters (4 US gallons)of gasoline.

Edited by Rasputin, 31 March 2013 - 05:28.

Even with a very generous efficency ratio of 3 to 1, a battery with 50 kWh of useful electricity is still no more than the equivalent of 15 liters (4 US gallons)of gasoline.

Nothing generous about 3:1. A Prius might approach 33% conversion effeiciency (ie 3:1) - plus it matches EV's in its ability to harvest braking. Non-hybrid gasolene cars are probably closer to 20% conversion efficiency (ie 5:1 compared to EV) in city driving and don't have regen braking.

I don't know if somebody posed this question, the thread is quite long, but...

WHY would we want to make electric vehicles work? Okay, they don't exhale black fumes, but I believe extensive studies show that the carbon footprint of electric cars (ha!) is not much lighter than petrol cars. The only advantage I can think of, is that it's relatively easy for citizens to harnass electric energy (windmills, solarpanels) from the enviroment on a small scale (and use it for our car) while it's very hard for the citizen to harnass oil from the ground (not in my garden, I can tell you!) and refine it and use it for your car.

So, again the question: do we know, with any certainty, that the electric car is greener and better than the petrol car?

Zero local pollution is a big advantage in cities.

Asking if an electric car is green is like asking if a electric grid is green. It's essentially as green as the power input into the grid. Could be anywhere from quite good to terrible.

Nothing generous about 3:1. A Prius might approach 33% conversion effeiciency (ie 3:1) - plus it matches EV's in its ability to harvest braking. Non-hybrid gasolene cars are probably closer to 20% conversion efficiency (ie 5:1 compared to EV) in city driving and don't have regen braking.

I was of course referring to the efficiency ratio between an ICE and an Electric driveline, if the ICE is 30% and Electric 90%, that's a 3:1 efficiency ratio.

This means that the 50 kWh of useful electrical battery storage in the Tesla, equals 15 liters and not 5, when one liter of gas/diesel is about 10 kWh.

I don't know if somebody posed this question, the thread is quite long, but...

WHY would we want to make electric vehicles work? Okay, they don't exhale black fumes, but I believe extensive studies show that the carbon footprint of electric cars (ha!) is not much lighter than petrol cars.

OK, let's say we take the most carbon intensive "dirty" electricity you can find, coal, and use it to power a car, you end up with a number for gram of carbon per km of about 40 to 50. Not that impressive if you consider that the best IC cars now get 90 to 100 gram per km. BUT, and it's an important but, if you are going to make the "well to wheel" argument for the electric car you should do the same for the IC car. What about the carbon produced by the oil industry before the petrol even reaches the gas station? There are no official numbers for this. Those who would now, the oil industry, doesn't want to tell. The estimate I have seen is that an IC car that produce 120 gram/km tailpipe, will produce a total of 300 to 400 gram/km of carbon when the pollution of the oil industry is included.

Note: I basically used the argument in this video for my reply:

Edited by Superbar, 01 April 2013 - 16:39.

What about the carbon produced by the oil industry before the petrol even reaches the gas station? There are no official numbers for this. Those who would now, the oil industry, doesn't want to tell.

When you switch stupid paranoia mode off and actually search for the number it turns out that that well to bowser efficiency numbers are well known and widely reported. 85-87%

Of course now that you know that number you can expect large wads of cash to appear on your desk every week to keep it secret.

I'm confused by that number Greg - if the ICE is only 20 something percent efficient, how is well to wheel 85-87%?

I'm confused by that number Greg - if the ICE is only 20 something percent efficient, how is well to wheel 85-87%?

It isn't well to wheel it is well to bowser.

Blaming oil companies for all of the CO2 emissions produced by usage of gasoline/diesel/jet fuel is somewhat dishonest. The majority of these CO2 emissions are produced by the end user of the fuel (drivers, airlines, railroads, truckers, etc.), and not by the oil companies.

The debate over IC vs. EV/hybrid total vehicle lifecycle energy usage is also quite relevant. In these terms, current BE hybrids are not significantly better than many IC powered vehicles.

It isn't well to wheel it is well to bowser.

Had to google that. Bowser- an unattractive woman, a canine, Aussie slang for fuel pump. There - I'm learned up now.

A bowser is just a big fuel or water tank on wheels, either self propelled or, more usually I think, towed.

...search for the number it turns out that that well to bowser efficiency numbers are well known and widely reported. 85-87%

Blaming oil companies for all of the CO2 emissions produced by usage of gasoline/diesel/jet fuel is somewhat dishonest. The majority of these CO2 emissions are produced by the end user of the fuel (drivers, airlines, railroads, truckers, etc.), and not by the oil companies.

The argument was not about blame, it was about carbon footprint. To sum it up: it is dishonest to not include the carbon produced by the oil industry when calculating the carbon footprint of an IC vehicle, if you include the carbon produced by the power industry when calculating the carbon footprint of an electric vehicle. Accept this first, then you can argue about the numbers.

A bowser is just a big fuel or water tank on wheels, either self propelled or, more usually I think, towed.

Now there's a coincidence! Having not used or heard the word 'bowser' for bloody years, I had a phonecall from a colleague earlier today, from France where he is hollidaying. Could I go to the building we use as a tool store ASAP and check the water? This building is on farmland, and a main water supply comes up into 'our' building, out into a disused milking parlour and up to a stable yard and then to some fields, where it supplies a couple of animal troughs. There is no water and this may be due to frost attacking the pipework at source. Apparently the sheep in the top field are getting their water "from a bowser"! Funny old world...

Boring story alert (just for rasputin). In oz they are known as Furphy's, and in WW1 when we helped save one branch of the German Royal family from being defeated by another branch of the German Royal family, they were used to take water to the front for the troops. So, any story of gossip is known as a Furphy, a phrase almost directly equivalent to watercooler gossip. Here's one http://www.abc.net.a...er-tank/3182834 and we have a very similar one in our Botanic Gardens.

A Formula One forum and no one even mention the GMD T27 created by the formula one designer Gordon Murray? With 35 hp and 105 km/h maybe it hasn't got F1 performance.

More like 80 kW.hr.

According to THIS POST 20 Kw is all it takes for a medium size car to maintain 120 km/hr. From the same post we get estimates of 4 km/MJ highway (100 km/hr) and 3 km/MJ urban. 1 kW.hr = 3.6 MJ or about 10 km urban so 80 kW.hr should give 800 km.

For comparison, Tesla claim 300 miles (480 km) from their model S with 85 kW.hr battery and that is a heavy, high performance car. 800 km from a medium sedan with an 80 kW.hr, 5X (lightweight) battery is very realistic.

The T27 specs claims 100-130 miles/160-210 km depending on test cycle with a 13 KWh battery. That equals 12-16 km/KWh compared to Teslas 5-6 km/KWh.

Edited by Hoax, 03 April 2013 - 06:59.

 

http://www.teslamoto...-model-s-family

 

 

It's here and now. How often do you drive 250 miles without stopping for a while? Reasons for adoption are vanishing. Can't wait to drive a Tesla  

 

http://www.teslamoto...-model-s-family

 

 

It's here and now. How often do you drive 250 miles without stopping for a while? Reasons for adoption are vanishing. Can't wait to drive a Tesla  

I live in Australia, so often drive 400k without a stop. And then it is usually stop for a pee and drink and continue. Not wait for a recharge for my electric pram!  Which could not tow a racecar anyway

http://www.aljazeera...1837481783.html

 

http://www.electrica...er-dakar-rally/

 

 

An electric car is competing in this years Paris Dakar rally. It will be interesting to see how well it does and how much additional help is required.

It completed the first stage but was listed under withdrawals  as "Expulsion" for the second. The cars number was 369

Edited by scolbourne, 07 January 2015 - 07:42.

I don't know if somebody posed this question, the thread is quite long, but...

WHY would we want to make electric vehicles work? Okay, they don't exhale black fumes, but I believe extensive studies show that the carbon footprint of electric cars (ha!) is not much lighter than petrol cars. The only advantage I can think of, is that it's relatively easy for citizens to harnass electric energy (windmills, solarpanels) from the enviroment on a small scale (and use it for our car) while it's very hard for the citizen to harnass oil from the ground (not in my garden, I can tell you!) and refine it and use it for your car.

So, again the question: do we know, with any certainty, that the electric car is greener and better than the petrol car?

The very point millions have made over the last decades. A very expensive smallish car with very limited performance and range realistically is no more 'green' than a common or garden full size family car. Which is not particulary affected by the extremes of weather, is not a severe hazard in a crash and can be refueled nearly any where in any country within 10 min.

That will never happen with an electric toy. They may be semi practical in an urban enviroment. but nowhere else.

 

Here in Adelaide out lunatic government has installed an electric train line. In the place with the worlds most expensive electricity. A real assett. NOT. But it is 'Green' and trendy!! As green as a coal fired electricity power station.

Nothing really wrong with electric trains on old networks where the power WAS cheap. But not world record prices. And while out this afternoon I saw yet another electric train under tow from a diesel one. It has been 42 deg this arvo. Our Euro electric trams all break down too over 30 deg. And the punters come off them 2 parts boiled on hot days! Euro A/C and no opening windows!

http://www.aljazeera...1837481783.html

 

An electric car is competing in this years PAris Dakar rally. It will be interesting to see how well it does and how much additional help is required.

Zero emmision?  How many emmisions have been made by the power station supplying the electricity?  Yet alone manufacturing the batteries. And the [probably more] service vehicles. And was obvious in the clip it is slow. All slow race cars are a waste of effort!

Zero emmision?  How many emmisions have been made by the power station supplying the electricity?  Yet alone manufacturing the batteries. And the [probably more] service vehicles. And was obvious in the clip it is slow. All slow race cars are a waste of effort!

You are missing the point . This rally is about the hardest environment for an electric car and completing one stage is quite a victory. Hopefully there will be similar entries in future years allowing us to see the progress of electric cars and batteries.

Electric cars are actually quite a good fit for outback areas. You can charge the car from solar power (probably shared with the house) and the battery can supply power to the house when there are big demands like use of washing machines. No need to have fuel shipped in.

Zero emmision?  How many emmisions have been made by the power station supplying the electricity?  Yet alone manufacturing the batteries. And the [probably more] service vehicles. And was obvious in the clip it is slow. All slow race cars are a waste of effort!

Surely you jest!   ...Soo when ICE cars started racing way back then they were fast straight out of the blocks eh?...This Dakar effort is a showcase,a study feasibility as someone else has pointed out. I think.in the not too distant future the scenario can only  get better and better with change in strongly held prejudices against change per se  and improvements in and around ev technology.  .......Fossil fuels and those that still cling to them  are just that.. old  FOSSILS! 

Edited by Fatgadget, 07 January 2015 - 17:30.

Soo when ICE cars started racing way back then they were fast straight out of the blocks eh?...

 

Yes, they were - compared to anything else around at that time.  

 

The Dakar case was a total nonsense - it needed battery changes mid-stage (carried of course by a ICE truck), not to mention recharging facilities at the overnight halts.  Or it would have done but apparently didn't even get that far.  No advert for the new technology, rather the opposite.

^^Are you too of the mindset that there is no place here and now and in the future for electric vehicles?....Of course you was banking for the ambitious Dakar entry to FAIL lol....Im sure you know already most of the shite we take for granted nowadays is the culmination of loads and loads of FAILs !
Here is another anology closer to the topic at hand.Valves vacuum tubes did pretty much what new fangled transistors could do.Where are valves now apart from the anals of history?..I could go on

Edited by Fatgadget, 07 January 2015 - 23:01.

Charging an EV off my own solar would be a fairly hideous proposition. My round trip to work is 196 km. A decent solar system will produce around 5 kWh per day on average for every peak kW of panels installed (however where I live the minimum might be only 1 or 2).

 

Typical EVs use about 200 Wh/km. So for my commute I need a 40 kWh battery, so to charge that every day on average I'd need an 8 kW system. That is only about $10k, but it is quite large, 40 square metres of panels.. I'd also need 40 kWh of storage since i work in the day and need to charge the car overnight. That's about $8k of lead acids, which would die within 3-4 years due to the depth of discharge required. The other option would be a spare battery pack for the car and a way of swapping them over.

Edited by Greg Locock, 07 January 2015 - 23:26.

^^Are you too of the mindset that there is no place here and now and in the future for electric vehicles?....Of course you was banking for the ambitious Dakar entry to FAIL lol....Im sure you know already most of the shite we take for granted nowadays is the culmination of loads and loads of FAILs !
Here is another anology closer to the topic at hand.Valves vacuum tubes did pretty much what new fangled transistors could do.Where are valves now apart from the anals of history?..I could go on

I have no problem with people trying new things.  But if they are manifestly incapable of the task they are undertaking, that is not a brave effort, it is a piece of stupidity.  You have to walk before you can run.  Trying to sprint when you can barely toddle is just dumb.  The Dakar thing was just a bit of headline grabbing egotism and its failure does more harm to the cause of EVs than good because people write the technology off when they see it flop so badly.

 

As for valves, they are still in use in applications where transistors are no use.  And that isn't in anyone's anal.  

I live in Australia, so often drive 400k without a stop. And then it is usually stop for a pee and drink and continue. Not wait for a recharge for my electric pram!  Which could not tow a racecar anyway

You are right - current EV technology does not meet your needs. So what! The vast majority of travel for the vast majority of drivers could be performed by an EV you (at least some of the world) can buy right now.

 

The very point millions have made over the last decades. A very expensive smallish car with very limited performance and range realistically is no more 'green' than a common or garden full size family car. Which is not particulary affected by the extremes of weather, is not a severe hazard in a crash and can be refueled nearly any where in any country within 10 min.

That will never happen with an electric toy. They may be semi practical in an urban enviroment. but nowhere else.

 

Here in Adelaide out lunatic government has installed an electric train line. In the place with the worlds most expensive electricity. A real assett. NOT. But it is 'Green' and trendy!! As green as a coal fired electricity power station.

Nothing really wrong with electric trains on old networks where the power WAS cheap. But not world record prices. And while out this afternoon I saw yet another electric train under tow from a diesel one. It has been 42 deg this arvo. Our Euro electric trams all break down too over 30 deg. And the punters come off them 2 parts boiled on hot days! Euro A/C and no opening windows!

You and the two year old post you are responding to, are both spouting a myth from last century. There have been numerous posts here de-bunking the urban myth that life-cycle emissions from electric cars are higher. Even if it was true, EV development is preparing for a future where electricity will be low carbon and liquid hydrocarbons will be priced out of the energy market.

You do not understand the meaning of the phrase "That will never happen". You know what an "absolute" is do you?

 

Electric trains cost less to run - even with South Australian electricity (which is not the "world's most expensive" by the way).

 

Buying the wrong trains and trams is dumb. We build perfectly good ones here in Australia. Hardly a technical argument against electrification though.

Charging an EV off my own solar would be a fairly hideous proposition. My round trip to work is 196 km. A decent solar system will produce around 5 kWh per day on average for every peak kW of panels installed (however where I live the minimum might be only 1 or 2).

 

Typical EVs use about 200 Wh/km. So for my commute I need a 40 kWh battery, so to charge that every day on average I'd need an 8 kW system. That is only about $10k, but it is quite large, 40 square metres of panels.. I'd also need 40 kWh of storage since i work in the day and need to charge the car overnight. That's about $8k of lead acids, which would die within 3-4 years due to the depth of discharge required. The other option would be a spare battery pack for the car and a way of swapping them over.

I assume you have mains power, so rather than buying batteries for the home , sell the power back to the grid. Otherwise I guess an electric car where you can swap batteries  is the way to go.

I doubt whether you are the type of user that is most suited to an electric powered  car at this stage of their development.

I'm still trying to get my mind around a 196 km daily commute. That's insane.

Agreed. Bonkers.

!96 km ?   About  60 miles each way - depends what sort of traffic you are driving through  but 60 miles each way sounds reasonable. 

Charging an EV off my own solar would be a fairly hideous proposition. My round trip to work is 196 km. A decent solar system will produce around 5 kWh per day on average for every peak kW of panels installed (however where I live the minimum might be only 1 or 2).
 
Typical EVs use about 200 Wh/km. So for my commute I need a 40 kWh battery, so to charge that every day on average I'd need an 8 kW system. That is only about $10k, but it is quite large, 40 square metres of panels.. I'd also need 40 kWh of storage since i work in the day and need to charge the car overnight. That's about $8k of lead acids, which would die within 3-4 years due to the depth of discharge required. The other option would be a spare battery pack for the car and a way of swapping them over.

Put the panels on the roof at work, and charge there. Or, get a windmill at home and charge at night. Done.

I expect to see an electric car in your driveway tomorrow

You are right - current EV technology does not meet your needs. So what! The vast majority of travel for the vast majority of drivers could be performed by an EV you (at least some of the world) can buy right now.

 

You and the two year old post you are responding to, are both spouting a myth from last century. There have been numerous posts here de-bunking the urban myth that life-cycle emissions from electric cars are higher. Even if it was true, EV development is preparing for a future where electricity will be low carbon and liquid hydrocarbons will be priced out of the energy market.

 

You do not understand the meaning of the phrase "That will never happen". You know what an "absolute" is do you?

 

Electric trains cost less to run - even with South Australian electricity (which is not the "world's most expensive" by the way).

 

Buying the wrong trains and trams is dumb. We build perfectly good ones here in Australia. Hardly a technical argument against electrification though.

They do not cost the government much in electricity. The taxpayer subsidises the things. Double and triple dip. We sudsidise the wind and solar power big time. Then the power to run the electric train set is effectivly free to them. The taxpayer pays more for its power. This is fact. And IF we had an established electric train network while hardly ideal for taxpayer would still be vaguely ok. BUT they spend hundreds of millions having to build the network. Visual pollution with the butt ugly poles and wires and only ONE of the 4 major routes are electric. The others are diesel. Having ONE style of train network is the only one that makes sense. Not some electric some diesel. Worse, apart from the cost for a bankrupt state at least one of the lines can never be electric as the goods trains preclude that.

But our Govt want to be just like Melbourne with  electric trains and trams. Victoria has had the network forever, but building a half assed network in this day and age is rediculous.

Talking with 40 year veterans in the dept the total agreement is WHY. And now it seems the electric railcars have a different wheel base and are 'chattering' on corners and wearing out the lines rapidly. The refurbished line was built for shorter wheelbase railcars

Plus our new tramline to nowhere was not built properly and will cost [annonced] 20m to fix. Meaning 40 or 50m and a whole lot more traffic disruption too. This is the tramline that duplicates an existing train line and a bus route too. And has decimated the ring route around the city for traffic, which includes buses! Evidently about 12 min longer now from Port Adelaide.

 

As for electric cars being practical,, my post says it all. As does Gregs.

I'm still trying to get my mind around a 196 km daily commute. That's insane.

While my commute is about two metres I know many people who do that every day. Down the freeway is ok, 50-60 min. But right across the city metro is insane. And probably 2 hours each way. 

A chap I know though does  even more than that, about 120km from a rural location to an outer metro location. And now, not one stop or traffic light. And yes he is paid quite well, the reason he still does it.

The other option would be a spare battery pack for the car and a way of swapping them over.

Battery packs in a pair of box trailers, one charging and one discharging. Just hook up, plug in and drive off.
I should be a consultant.

How about a 736 km range in real traffic and conditions?

 

90 kWh of energy spent at average speed of 66 kph in a 7-seat MPV. Perhaps some big car companies should learn a thing or to.

 

Or maybe they just don't have any interes for doing so - and why would they, at today's prices of petrol? I guess it's easier to produce something intermediate, or not quite finished, and then, after it (inevitably!) fails on the market, make a statement that an E-Car is just a gimmick without real future.

 

Just as Mercedes-Benz did a few months ago...

 

How about a 736 km range in real traffic and conditions?

 

90 kWh of energy spent at average speed of 66 kph in a 7-seat MPV. Perhaps some big car companies should learn a thing or to.

 

Or maybe they just don't have any interes for doing so - and why would they, at today's prices of petrol? I guess it's easier to produce something intermediate, or not quite finished, and then, after it (inevitably!) fails on the market, make a statement that an E-Car is just a gimmick without real future.

 

Just as Mercedes-Benz did a few months ago...

Total average speed 66kmh for 736km. I think you can call that a failure at just over half the average speed one would expect,, and hills are problem!

I don't think you can average more than 70 in ANY car along THOSE roads. It's not all highways over here. 50 kph limit through towns, and 70/90 on other roads.

 

Plus, I don't think you can call ANY car, that can make 700+ kms on ONE battery charge "a failure", no matter the circumstances. Even if the road was in straight line and was constantly going downhill, you have to achieve such a distance first.

I assume you have mains power, so rather than buying batteries for the home , sell the power back to the grid. Otherwise I guess an electric car where you can swap batteries  is the way to go.

I doubt whether you are the type of user that is most suited to an electric powered  car at this stage of their development.

 

 

You know what they say about assume?

 

No I am not on the grid. My only connection to the outside world is via a gravel road and radio waves. 

I'm still trying to get my mind around a 196 km daily commute. That's insane.

 One hour and 6 minutes each way.

 

1 set of traffic lights that are usually green.