DRS practice and qualifying rules to be changed for 2013 (merged)

I don't think this will ruin overtaking, if you forget DRS when setting you gear ratios you will still lose several tenths of a second in a qualy lap (in the DRS zone), for a minimal gain of perhaps 1 tenth per clean lap in the race with no DRS available. That will drop you several places back in the grid with no way to overtake! Why would you do that? The car may be quicker over the race but if you're going to be stuck there's no point pursuing that strategy.

Ultimately it's all a compromise and the balance will swing slightly to shorter gears, but the fundamentals remain the same - if you shorten the gears then you'd better hope you'll get clean air all race.

It's perfect. Really good decision for once.

Get rid of DRS, introduce push to pass.

What's the difference?

One reduces drag, the other enhances power. I prefer the latter as it reduces the possibility, that the overtaking driver just blasts past his competitor.

Edited by LiJu914, 16 November 2012 - 10:39.

removed on safety grounds? drivers could activate it too early on corner exit??? are these guys serious?

let's limit the throttle usage only to straights and drivers should not accelerate unless steering wheel is straight

It's perfect. Really good decision for once.

what a surprise that ferrari fans welcome this rule change.

removed on safety grounds? drivers could activate it too early on corner exit??? are these guys serious?

let's limit the throttle usage only to straights and drivers should not accelerate unless steering wheel is straight

"One could argue that the early deployment of the DRS is not much different to early deployment of the throttle, but the DRS is an on/off switch whereas the throttle can be modulated."

One reduces drag, the other enhances power. I prefer the latter as it reduces the possibility, that the overtaking driver just blasts past his competitor.

That depends entirely on the amount of power vs. the amount of drag-reduction. And they do already have KERS, you know. Is your idea then that KERS could only used in the situations where DRS can be used now?

i think they've done this to stop others from what RBR & Vettel did in Abu Dhabi.
their Qualy runnings are totally based on the free DRS in Qualy sessions, i mean thats how it seems.

edit: i meant of most teams, especially MGP

Edited by sanW10, 16 November 2012 - 11:04.

Mercedes AMG

My first thought when I saw the story was a preminition of Ross explaining their dismal performance in 2013 was due to their focus on utilising DRS, which was the ruined by this ruling!

Hoping I am wrong...hmmm, that felt weird, my first 'concerned about effect on mercedes rather than mclaren' post!

That depends entirely on the amount of power vs. the amount of drag-reduction.

I know and right now the drag-reduction effect is too much. Furthermore there will always be a slight difference as push to pass would rather provide better accelaration whereas DRS provides also more top-speed. We can see right now how difficult it is to have the DRS-zone exactly created in a way, that both cars are more or less side by side before the braking point.

And they do already have KERS, you know. Is your idea then that KERS could only used in the situations where DRS can be used now?

No. KERS-usage is still quite limited right now. E.g. instead of a DRS-button the cars could have a second KERS-button, that activates more power than the usual KERS...


Will be interesting to see, what FIA will do about the whole issue, when the Turbos will be back in 2014.

Edited by LiJu914, 16 November 2012 - 11:20.

Lame.

I agree that DRS (and the zones that form part of the system) is something they should drop. It is artificial.
However, my point here is that Charlie says they are banning its current use on Friday and Saturday for 2013 and beyond due to safety concerns.
Well, if it is such a safety problem, ban it NOW.

Limiting DRS use in practice and qual to the same zone as in the race sounds like an uncharacteristic outbreak of common sense.

I agree that DRS (and the zones that form part of the system) is something they should drop. It is artificial.
However, my point here is that Charlie says they are banning its current use on Friday and Saturday for 2013 and beyond due to safety concerns.
Well, if it is such a safety problem, ban it NOW.

They never said its a HUGE safety problem or anything. Cars this year are designed around DRS, it'd be extreme to tell them to just take it all off now. They're just giving a heads up to teams for 2013, which is a good thing as you wouldn't want to spring it on them too late.

I'm not sure this change was necessary, though. Its going to reduce the effectiveness of DRS quite a bit(for overtaking). I hope they adjust DRS zones accordingly, but seeing how they've handled 'adjusting' DRS zones this year, I dont have much trust it'll happen.

It seems that the driver wanted that change, fair enough. What worries me a bit is the possibility to see less variety in setups, especially gearing. This could be negative for the fun on race day.

Good good... all goes acording to my plan. Lotus will dominate 2013 with their DRD

And tbh it will hit the cars with superior aero the most. They could open DRS in places where other couldnt, or earlier than the rest. It will be good change for cars like Mercedes, McLaren and Ferrari, and will hurt the most RBR for sure.

Who will this effect the most?

Red Bull?

Probably yeah, they usually have the lowest top speed of all of them.

Why does everyone think this will hurt Red Bull more than other teams (other than Mercedes, but the banning of their DDRS is more relevant to them)?

Red Bull have only had a DRS advantage since they introduced their own version of the DDRS, but this system was already known to be banned from next year anyway. I actually think it will benefit them relative to the others. During the EBD they had an advantage in qualifying with the DRS open, as they were thought to produce the most downforce from their diffusor/floor, hence could afford to open it earlier and close it later through corners in qualifying. Top speed has been Red Bull's biggest weakness since it became a front running team in 2009. Before their DDRS, this was more pronounced this year than last and one might assume, absent of an amazing passive DDRS, they could again struggle with top speed next year, as their car seems to be optimised to attain a better overall lap time with shorter gearing and or higher downforce/drag relative to other cars at a given circuit.

This weakness has seen Webber and Vettel often struggle to pass on track when stuck behind slower cars (Abu Dhabi an exception for obvious reasons). Valencia springs to mind for Webber, where he couldn't get past Schumacher, but there have been many examples this year.

With this rule change, if teams aren't forced to consider the penalty in qualifying of running into the rev limiter by setting the up 7th gear to be optimised for DRS closed (most of the race, even in the DRS zone[s]), then surely we're going to see teams forced to optimise their gear ratios for qualifying and the majority of the race. Unless it's a marginal disadvantage (doubtful), then laptime ultimately rules, whether you're out in front in a Red Bull or in the midfield, even if they can't pass you on the straight, if you're giving up significant time over the lap, they will get you somewhere - even if it's through pit strategy (not good for racing).

It also takes the edge off the only time these already heavily neutered F1 cars.

What's the difference?



One reduces drag, the other enhances power. I prefer the latter as it reduces the possibility, that the overtaking driver just blasts past his competitor.

I WISH F1 would follow WSR's path of using DRS. They give each driver, say, 100 seconds of DRS for the whole race, use it when and how you want but once your out your out. That way it is an overtaking aid but it introduces an element of strategy into it and doesn't overly penalise the driver in front. But maybe thats just too much sense for the FIA to take in, in one go.

Edited by olliek88, 16 November 2012 - 14:49.

They never said its a HUGE safety problem or anything. Cars this year are designed around DRS, it'd be extreme to tell them to just take it all off now. They're just giving a heads up to teams for 2013, which is a good thing as you wouldn't want to spring it on them too late.

I'm not sure this change was necessary, though. Its going to reduce the effectiveness of DRS quite a bit(for overtaking). I hope they adjust DRS zones accordingly, but seeing how they've handled 'adjusting' DRS zones this year, I dont have much trust it'll happen.

No, he didn't say it was huge, but he gave safety as the ONLY reason. Also, they will not "take off" DRS, just not allow them to use it whenever they like. There is no car design issue here. Sometimes I don't understand the safety campaign thing. One freak occurence and we need to overhaul our thinking about the basics of F1 car design, yet the FIA saying free DRS use is dangerous and "we can wait till next year."
I am not against safety, I just question the hot/cold approach.

It was always a bizarre way of running it. It still is a bit as long as they run it.

Of course its bloody artifical if only the chasing driver is allowed to use it.

Wrong. Everyone can use it in practice in quali, not just the chasing driver, therefore logic dictates that it's a component of the car that poses a technological challenge. A better-designed DRS will be more beneficial in terms of pace than one that isn't, adding a developmental challenge to it rather than purely introducing it as an overtaking aid. Before, it was a part of the car that could be developed for pace over the course of an entire lap during at least one stage of the weekend, just like any other technology on the car. In comparison, when they limit the use of DRS to just the overtaking zones throughout the weekend, it's hard not to see it as a specialised component designed purely as an artificial overtaking aid--there's no longer any reason to extensively develop it because the pace advantage it would give over such a small section of the track in a qualifying session would be so miniscule as to be pointless. That's the problem I have with this ruling.

Meh, just get rid of it...

Makes sense - I can't understand why there is a non raceday feature that can't be used in the race.

Geoff

My thoughts basically echo these.

I WISH F1 would follow WSR's path of using DRS. They give each driver, say, 100 seconds of DRS for the whole race, use it when and how you want but once your out your out. That way it is an overtaking aid but it introduces an element of strategy into it and doesn't overly penalise the driver in front. But maybe thats just too much sense for the FIA to take in, in one go.

You see, this is when it stops being an artificial overtaking device and starts to make some bit of sense. At least it would be less artificial.

I assumed that this would impact on the effectiveness of DRS because of the setting of gearing, but this is a brilliant point:

Most of the lap they are not in 7th gear so I'm not sure it will make much of a difference, as it's in the DRS zones when 7th is used.

I guess it's only circuits where there is a length non-DRS straight (such as Spa?) where it might have an impact.

I guess it's only circuits where there is a length non-DRS straight (such as Spa?) where it might have an impact.

With only one DRS straight, teams will prefer bouncing on the limiter all the DRS zone to have decent RPM in the non DRS straight lines. Hope I´m wrong but this isn´t going to change anything about qualifying sessions and will make races worse.

I WISH F1 would follow WSR's path of using DRS. They give each driver, say, 100 seconds of DRS for the whole race, use it when and how you want but once your out your out. That way it is an overtaking aid but it introduces an element of strategy into it and doesn't overly penalise the driver in front. But maybe thats just too much sense for the FIA to take in, in one go.

YES. This. 100%.

It adds strategy to it. I don't like having a 'zone', particularly when it's usually on the best passing place anyway.

I think it was right decision . Sadly this makes gearing much easier.

good decision. drivers will be more focused during the lap. it would be good if they disabled KERS during qualifying as well but they will never do it.

Any chance of a GP2 car will be faster than an F1 backmarker car on a few circuits next year?

I WISH F1 would follow WSR's path of using DRS. They give each driver, say, 100 seconds of DRS for the whole race, use it when and how you want but once your out your out. That way it is an overtaking aid but it introduces an element of strategy into it and doesn't overly penalise the driver in front. But maybe thats just too much sense for the FIA to take in, in one go.

But then Vettel , or whoever's on pole would use it massively for the early laps to get a huge lead and that would be game over. Unless everybody used it as well to keep up, then the whole thing is a bit pointless.

I assumed that this would impact on the effectiveness of DRS because of the setting of gearing, but this is a brilliant point:


I guess it's only circuits where there is a length non-DRS straight (such as Spa?) where it might have an impact.

Thanks

Yeah, as you say, I think it depends on how many long non-DRS straights there are in a given circuit.

Any chance of a GP2 car will be faster than an F1 backmarker car on a few circuits next year?

I think that happened at monaco in at least one year from the last three.

I think that happened at monaco in at least one year from the last three.

That is amazing.

I don't think this matters. The regulations may change to address specific ideas, but you have to have change in order to encourage innovation. The only time there is a problem is when you have a situation like last years mid-season EBD ban. However, the myriad of smaller reg changes during the season are fine as are all reg introductions and modifications for a new season.

good decision. drivers will be more focused during the lap. it would be good if they disabled KERS during qualifying as well but they will never do it.

if they put auto-braking on the cars they can focus even more
let's also return to auto gears so they don't have to click -> even more focus

who the heck wants drivers challenged and prone to errors?

I don't think this matters. The regulations may change to address specific ideas, but you have to have change in order to encourage innovation. The only time there is a problem is when you have a situation like last years mid-season EBD ban. However, the myriad of smaller reg changes during the season are fine as are all reg introductions and modifications for a new season.

It's interesting. They're closing another loophole without any new technical opportunities emerging, so we might well be back to the situation at the beginning of the year where everyone's very equal because there's not much scope for unusual development. Except in the mid- and late-season everyone's technical teams will be focusing on the new-for-2014 rules, so things might stay that way. Good for the fans, although I don't think Formula One without technical intrigue is viable in the long-term.

Edited by Risil, 17 November 2012 - 12:45.

Fantastic. Now we are not going to see the cars going no faster than 280 on race day, they will be back to speed.

Poor decision, seeing the drivers use the DRS in qualifying when they are absolutely on it is very fun. How brave a driver can be going into a corner with their DRS open or how early they decide to open their DRS.

I'm actually in favor of this. DRS is basically a push-to-pass feature, but what it became was you had two F1 cars - one with DRS engaged (maybe a crap car) and one without (maybe a great car). So in quali you had one "formula" where all the cars could use DRS, and then in the race its a restricted use item. Someone wrote that with free DRS you have differences of up to 3s/lap in quali. Thats a different car.

Don't really care about gear ratios and whatnot. Teams are free to gear how they want.

get rid of it and put overtaking back down to driver skill making the difference.

It's such a key skill in motoracing that I'm surprised the FIA nerf the advantage for those good at overtaking. It's like they want all the drivers to be the same...

Now you guys talk about GP2, I´ve been thinking for some time just give teams a rule set aimed to reproduce in a way as precise as possible 2006-2010 GP2 cars. Let them put in a F1 engine and, of course, a F1 driver. There you have some serious quality racing without passing gadgets with some gorgeous looking cars.

Andrew Benson ‏@andrewbensonf1
Martin Whitmarsh says Charlie Whiting is proposing two DRS zones at every track next year, in addition to tweaks to use announced on Friday
9:49 PM - 17 Nov 12

bad choice in my view, DRS adds an element of driver skill to quali.

There really isn't a facepalm big enough in the world.

DRS isn't a one shoe fits all measure and while it's helped produce some artificial excitement at tracks such as Valencia and Abu Dhabi, it's already ridiculously easy to overtake at track such as Canada and Spa with just one DRS zone, I fear that certain races may be 'destroyed' because of it. I understand that this is a way to resolve the gearing issue that was likely to crop up with the new rule, but this can't be the only solution.

It will be fun to see where they put the second DRS zone at Monaco.....Tunnel!

Andrew Benson ‏@andrewbensonf1
Martin Whitmarsh says Charlie Whiting is proposing two DRS zones at every track next year, in addition to tweaks to use announced on Friday
9:49 PM - 17 Nov 12

So suddenly he thinks he was wrong when at first he so confidently said it would have no influence on gearing?

Andrew Benson ‏@andrewbensonf1
Martin Whitmarsh says Charlie Whiting is proposing two DRS zones at every track next year, in addition to tweaks to use announced on Friday
9:49 PM - 17 Nov 12

Just make Hungaroring and Monaco have DRS zone everywhere in the race.

Edited by Wander, 18 November 2012 - 09:54.

Just make Hungaroring and Monaco have DRS zone everywhere in the race.

Let them use the DRS as long as it is needed until they can complete the overtake!

Edited by SpaMaster, 18 November 2012 - 10:53.

Let them use the DRS unlimited until they can complete the overtake!

Exactly. Maybe we'd actually see some action on those tracks.

The only good thing about DRS was that it makes the cars faster in qualifying..

I wish they'd kept it free in qualy and make it a x per event push to pas in the race (or also free in the zone, for every driver).

Damn... then we'll not see Pastor drifting anymore!