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If it comes down to it, will Ferrari go for WDC or WCC?

Started by mnmracer , Nov 21 2012 10:34

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38 replies to this topic

#1 mnmracer

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:34

Consider the following scenario in Brazil.

It's lap 60 with just 10 laps to go.
Lewis is in the lead, with Felipe on his tail. Jenson is 3rd 15 seconds behind and Fernando a distant 4th. Sebastian is out.
If they were to finish like this, Ferrari would pick up 30 points, and finish 2nd in the constructor's championship with 397 points, with McLaren picking up 40 points to finish 3rd with 393 points.
Alonso, who needs third, loses the championship though.

If Ferrari tells Felipe to drop back, McLaren's 1-2 finish will bring their total in the WCC to 396 points, taking 2nd place, with Ferrari's 3-4 finish bringing their total to 394 points for 3rd place in the constructor's championship.

What will Ferrari do? Go for 2nd in the constructor's championship but losing Alonso the driver's title, or drop to 3rd in constructor's championship but with the driver's championship for Alonso?

#2 tifosiMac

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:38

Ferrari aren't lacking in funding so they will ultimately go all out for the WDC.

#3 Zava

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:38

who on earth would go for a second place in the not as visible championship (which would only mean about +10 million in prize money), when you can be champion, also worth mentioning that this would be in the far more marketabe one?

#4 krapmeister

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:47

I think Ferrari has already answered this question in Austin when they cut the seal on Massa's gearbox...

#5 Wander

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:48

If the actual WCC was on the line, I wouldn't be as sure about what they would do, but who gives two shits about whether they're 2nd or 3rd? I sure don't.

(And I think they would actually go for Alonso's title even if it meant losing the WCC anyway)

#6 Oho

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:50

If the actual WCC was on the line, I wouldn't be as sure about what they would do, but who gives two shits about whether they're 2nd or 3rd? I sure don't.

(And I think they would actually go for Alonso's title even if it meant losing the WCC anyway)

They would go for drivers any time. Just look how disappointed Ferrari staff looked at the wake of 99 finale, McLaren was over the moon, Ferrari hardly hiding their disappointment.

#7 swerved

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:50

I'm guessing that late on Saturday night Ferrari engineers will paint Alonso a new grid starting slot anyway, somewhere round about the Curva Do Sol.

#8 TIFOlonSO

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:54

Every team wants WDC in the first place no matter what they say.
WCC is only counting some extra money.

#9 Wander

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 10:56

They would go for drivers any time. Just look how disappointed Ferrari staff looked at the wake of 99 finale, McLaren was over the moon, Ferrari hardly hiding their disappointment.

Yeah, you're right. WDC also has about 10 times more media visibility and importance and all that.

#10 Massa

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:08

So i'm the only one who think that Ferrari will go for WCC ?

#11 paulrobs

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:18

Any championship win is better than 2nd in another championship.

It's all about the advertising and kudos and coming 1st rather than beng 1st of the losers.

Imagine two advertisements:

"Fernado Alonso, 2012 F1 World Driver Champion, driving for Ferrari........."

Or

"Fernando Alonso, 2012 2nd place World Driver Champion, driving for Ferrari, 2012 2nd place F1 constructor....!

I don't work in marketing myself but I reckon I'd have the first one over the second any time. I kow they'd get more money for coming 2nd in the constructors championship but when you have the #1 on your car this opens up lots more advertising options anyway not to mention everyone dreaming of owning and driving a ferrari one day

Edited by paulrobs, 21 November 2012 - 11:19.

#12 Wander

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 11:25

So i'm the only one who think that Ferrari will go for WCC ?

I don't know why anyone would think that, but apparently there are two votes so you are not alone in your delusion.

Edited by Wander, 21 November 2012 - 11:26.

#13 Nonesuch

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:22

Any championship win is better than 2nd in another championship.

Agreed.

If it was WCC or WDC, I'd be less sure.

#14 F1ultimate

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:31

This isn't Formula 2. It's Formula 1. There is only one prize and that's the top spot. Fighting for seconds isn't in the mindset of top teams.

#15 Buttoneer

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:37

Any championship win is better than 2nd in another championship.

Yep.

/thread

#16 Longtimefan

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 12:40

2nd place is the first of the losers. They would obviously go for the WDC.

#17 choyothe

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 13:17

WDC of course, it is clearly the more important achievement for every member in the team anyway.

#18 aditya-now

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 14:19

Ferrari aren't lacking in funding so they will ultimately go all out for the WDC.

This. The WDC is much more glorious than the WCC, and even when Enzo Ferrari was alive I am sure he would have chosen the WDC. Contrast that with Ron Dennis - I would not put it past him that he would go for WCC instead of WDC. That is why so many great drivers left McLaren, especially in the last 10 years. Ron is going downhill with his philosophy.

#19 matthewf1

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 14:21

Is there really any point to this thread?

#20 SpaMaster

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 14:30

WDC is, was, always has been the most important award, for the driver, team, mechanics, designer, fans, whoever it is. There was no WCC in the beginning. WDC is not just driver's. It has always been about both the team and the driver. WCC is for prize money et al. But the ultimate prize of F1 has always been WDC, and it has never been just about the driver. The early Ascari and Fangio titles are associated as much with the team as the driver. In the olden days, when the title was referred to by driver's name, it was a representation of the whole team behind him.

F1 has never been a spec series, and it would never be about the drivers individually.

Edited by SpaMaster, 21 November 2012 - 14:31.

#21 icewest07

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 14:32

Consider the following scenario in Brazil.

It's lap 60 with just 10 laps to go.
Felipe is in the lead, with Lewis and Jenson following both 15+ seconds behind and Fernando a distant 4th. Sebastian is out.

[...]

If Ferrari tells Felipe to drop back, McLaren's 1-2 finish will bring their total in the WCC to 396 points, taking 2nd place, with Ferrari's 3-4 finish bringing their total to 394 points for 3rd place in the constructor's championship.

I agree with most around here that a WDC is more important at this point and that Ferrari wouldn't even blink to work it out...

But what could be more interesting is the bolded scenario (that I twisted on purpose). Here Ferrari would be in big trouble regarding the way they treated Massa these past 3 years (from Hockenheim '10 to lately Austin '12)... We are in Brazil and Felipe's late resurgence of form has certainly pleased many local fans and financial interests around the country! So even if in my deep heart I know that Ferrari would sacrify yet again Felipe's first chance of win since his injury, I kinda think they would not get away with this one easily (PR wise)... and of course this forum WILL meltdown :lol:

What you guys think ? :smoking:

#22 Vesuvius

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 14:35

So is Ferrari the only team that thinks WDC is more important? As Horner said at Austin WCC is more important for the teams as there the whole team is measured against the best and most of all that's where the workers of the team get their money and big bonuses from not from WDC. Montezemolo has also said that Ferrari comes before any driver... Of course WDC is important but it's more important for fans and media, for teams WCC is more important!

But in to the question of this thread of course they would take WDC title instead of constructors 2nd place!

Edited by Vesuvius, 21 November 2012 - 14:42.

#23 Vesuvius

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 14:37

WDC of course, it is clearly the more important achievement for every member in the team anyway.

For the team members WCC is more important, mechanics etc get their bonus money from WCC position not from WDC.

#24 SpaMaster

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 15:49

It's a spin to say WCC is more important to team members because that is where they get their bonus money from. You could say salary is important to any employee. Prize does not give you the livelihood. WCC money is rightfully earned money for the team for their participation in F1. It is like the ticket money from theaters going to the artists. Nothing bonus or prizey about it. Prize and salary are two different components, they can't be compared to say which one is better.

WCC is of course important. No team would want to give up on that. But to say, WCC is more important than WDC is missing the point altogether. WDC is really WC. The word 'driver' in world drivers' championship has become quite misleading, and is somewhat taking the credit away from the team recently on the whole purpose of the championship.

#25 Vesuvius

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 16:17

It's a spin to say WCC is more important to team members because that is where they get their bonus money from. You could say salary is important to any employee. Prize does not give you the livelihood. WCC money is rightfully earned money for the team for their participation in F1. It is like the ticket money from theaters going to the artists. Nothing bonus or prizey about it. Prize and salary are two different components, they can't be compared to say which one is better.

WCC is of course important. No team would want to give up on that. But to say, WCC is more important than WDC is missing the point altogether. WDC is really WC. The word 'driver' in world drivers' championship has become quite misleading, and is somewhat taking the credit away from the team recently on the whole purpose of the championship.

Well team bosses always say it's WCC that is more important for the team and workers. WDC is important for fans and media and gets publicity and that equals their importance.

#26 sawyer_si

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 16:25

Ferrari would even go for the WDC if they had to give away WCC, this is beyond any doubt in my book. They don't really care about it because they don't need Bernie's money and WDC is the ultimate prize in F1. 2000 was Ferrari's first championship in years, even if they won WCC in 1999. 2008 was unsuccessful year for them and guess what, they won WCC then as well.

I think that pretty much every team would do the same, unless they desperately need money. McLaren may be talking up WCC, but I still believe that if they had to choose one the decision would be quick.

#27 PretentiousBread

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 18:04

Well team bosses always say it's WCC that is more important for the team and workers. WDC is important for fans and media and gets publicity and that equals their importance.

The WCC could only be more important for the teams with tighter budgets, the top end teams of course have a wealth of resources, and the extra few mill given by a higher place in the WCC pales into insignificance compared to what a WDC brings to the team. Why else do you think Ferrari deliberately penalised Massa? Arguably they've a more realistic shot at 2nd in the WCC than they do at the WDC, why jeopardise this unless the WDC is much, much more significant to them?

#28 CrucialXtreme

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 18:14

So i'm the only one who think that Ferrari will go for WCC ?

Nope. I think they would put WCC ahead of WDC if they could win 1st place. I'm not sure they would do it for 2nd. The WCC means more to a Constructor like Ferrari than the WDC does.

#29 Disgrace

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 18:33

WCC is purely money. WDC is glory therefore money anyway. WCC is only a real issue from midfield downwards.

#30 whitevisor

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 18:43

Ferrari sell more cars is they win the driver's.

#31 TheNewStig

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 18:45

If it was 2 or 3 in wdc vs 1 in wcc i understand but this is just silly.
Offcourse they go for the wdc.

#32 CF22

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 19:52

The WDC decides which driver will run the number 1 car next year, by default the teammate gets the number 2 car. Cars 3 and up are decided by the WCC standing of the teams. Having the number 1 car is one of the biggest gains in terms of marketing in F1.

If Fernando wins the WDC his car will wear the number 1 and Massa's the number 2, if Ferrari win the WCC and Fernando is second in the WDC the Ferrari's will be 3 and 4. But as everyone is saying is better to be number 1 in the championship than number 2. If they had to choose between winning both championships they would go for the one that is reachable rather than the more difficult one, once one is in the bag then they'll shoot for the next.

#33 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 19:53

Reading this thread when the WCC has already been clinched, makes my head hurt.

#34 CF22

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 19:54

Ferrari sell more cars is they win the driver's.

Not really, go look at the waiting list today versus a WDC year for a new Ferrari.

#35 rijole1

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 20:59

They would take the WDC, Ferrari do not need the money, but they really need the WDC
It's about the glory, traditions, being afraid of loosing 'the greatest F1 team' status

And of course, everybody wants to be a winner, second or third best - who cares...

#36 AM14

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 21:16

Massa's penalty in Austin made it clear that the WDC is the priority. If they still has a chance of the constructor's then they might make that the priority, but a WDC would mean much more than second in the WCC.

#37 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 21:28

2nd is nothing more than first of the losers. Nobody even remembers who wins the WCC.

#38 Wolf

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Posted 21 November 2012 - 21:35

I agree with most around here that a WDC is more important at this point and that Ferrari wouldn't even blink to work it out...

But what could be more interesting is the bolded scenario (that I twisted on purpose). Here Ferrari would be in big trouble regarding the way they treated Massa these past 3 years (from Hockenheim '10 to lately Austin '12)... We are in Brazil and Felipe's late resurgence of form has certainly pleased many local fans and financial interests around the country! So even if in my deep heart I know that Ferrari would sacrify yet again Felipe's first chance of win since his injury, I kinda think they would not get away with this one easily (PR wise)... and of course this forum WILL meltdown

What you guys think ?

Nice scenario, and I do not doubt for a second that they'd make Massa take a dive without skipping a heartbeat...