Your 2012 top 10 F1-drivers

Thats not what you asked.

What's this?

Yeah? What other team was better than them to be at no.2?

The reason why Alonso raked up all the points in the first half was the other teams with faster cars had their cars breaking down or messing up their pit-stops.

So people knock Alonso for Massa matching him for a couple races, but are they also knocking Vettel for Webber matching him on several occasions or Lewis when Button was matching him?

Yes they are, nobody saying they had perfect season like its often said about Alonso. most of the people picking on Alonso here are doing that only to highlight that Alonso wasnt league above Hamilton or Vettel. By you often mentioned double standard is actually applied rather by you than others.

It's interesting that a lot of you guys say that Alonso choked, as it was all his fault and not the fact that Vettel made pole after pole after pole, while he qualyfied 7th, 6th, etc and had to run all the way up to the podium, just to finish after Vettel every single race (counting that the race was normal and neither had a problem).

You seem to think that the car they both had is comparable.

He had the inmense gap because others mistakes and his brilliance driving, and clearly it was a dream. Vettel's car was MUCH BETTER than his.



And Massa outperformed him in the last few races? Probably, but:

- It was in qualyfing specially.

- When you are not fighting for anything is much easier than when you are fighting for the title and you have a car that qualyfies not only after your main rival but after McLarens, and even Saubers and Lotus and Force Indias.

It's like blaming Vettel because Webber outqualyfied him in Brazil. The pressure is not the same.


It was very painful to watch Alonso lose the advantage, but it was even more painful because there was nothing he could do. NOTHING. For God's sake, Vettel was even 1 second faster!

Was RBR much faster? Yes.
But was RBR much better? No.

Ferrari may have been slower, but it was a lot more reliable. Reliable enough to gain 42 points on Vettel in just 2 races.

Not quite. Lets just put this 'Alonso was flawless all season' bs aside and take a closer look.

1) the fastest car, Mclaren, took itself out of the equation with its own many faults, leaving #2 (RBR) and #3 (Ferrari) to fight it out for the title.
2) both Fernando and Sebastian got involved in two major incidents over the season, one of them being a racing incident (Rai/Sen) and the other resulting in the causing driver getting a penalty (Gro/Kar). Fernando's 2 incidents roughly cost him 20-25 points (3rd/4th in Belgium and 4th/5th in Suzuka ), while Seb's incidents cost him 15-20 points (3rd/4th in Malaysia and 3rd/4th in Brazil). (net gain of about 5 points for Seb)
3) but Sebastian, inspite of having the faster car, also lost a rough estimate of about 35 points (42 to points to Alonso when you consider that Alonso gained 7 extra points due to his retirement in Valencia)due to his 2 car failures. (net gain of about 42 points for Fernando)
4) both Seb and Fernando were outperformed by their team mates for 3 races each this season. But while, Mark was allowed to take points away from Seb on all 3 occassions, Felipe wasnt allowed to on even one instance. If you take one position away from Fernando in those 3 races it comes to 9 points, but I shall halve it and make it 5 points. (net gain for Fernando 5 points)

Conclusion:
Net gain for Fernando = 47 points
Net gain for Seb = 5 points
Final result = A net gain of 42 points for Fernando

So you might say Fernando had a much slower car and he came to within 3 points of Seb. But one must ask the question of why? And the answer lies in the reliability of the RBR, for if not for its failings, Sebastian might have come close to sealing the title with two races left.

1) Alonso - a very good year, no matter how you cut it, 13 podiums from 20 races is a very impressive strike rate

2) Hamilton/Vettel - the masters of qualifying this year, prime examples at Abu Dhabi (Hamilton) and Valencia (Vettel). Both let down by reliability

4) Raikkonen - Finishing every race, and 19/20 in the points after 3 years away, Raikonnen's is already a better comeback than Schumacher managed over 3 years

5) Hulkenberg - Became very strong at the end of the season, outmatching and unsettling Di Resta

6) Perez - Podiums were well earned when they came around, but was poor from Japan onwards, as well as losing out to Kobayashi in qualifying

7) Maldonado - Amazing qualifying performances at Spa, Singapore and Texas as well as the Barcelona win offset his myriad incidents this season

8) Grosjean - Asserted early season advantage in qualifying, over Raikkonen, but when his season was derailed by incidents, he never fully recovered

9) Kobayashi - Heart-warming to see him on the podium in Japan, but Perez was the driver who scored the most high profile results

10) Schumacher/Rosberg - For Schumacher it's a 'what could have been' season, with Merc unreliability squandering his opportunities early season. Kept his chin up though, unlike Rosberg, who became anonymous post Monaco.

1) Alonso - a very good year, no matter how you cut it, 13 podiums from 20 races is a very impressive strike rate

2) Hamilton/Vettel - the masters of qualifying this year, prime examples at Abu Dhabi (Hamilton) and Valencia (Vettel). Both let down by reliability

4) Raikkonen - Finishing every race, and 19/20 in the points after 3 years away, Raikonnen's is already a better comeback than Schumacher managed over 3 years

5) Hulkenberg - Became very strong at the end of the season, outmatching and unsettling Di Resta

6) Perez - Podiums were well earned when they came around, but was poor from Japan onwards, as well as losing out to Kobayashi in qualifying

7) Maldonado - Amazing qualifying performances at Spa, Singapore and Texas as well as the Barcelona win offset his myriad incidents this season

8) Grosjean - Asserted early season advantage in qualifying, over Raikkonen, but when his season was derailed by incidents, he never fully recovered

9) Kobayashi - Heart-warming to see him on the podium in Japan, but Perez was the driver who scored the most high profile results

10) Schumacher/Rosberg - For Schumacher it's a 'what could have been' season, with Merc unreliability squandering his opportunities early season. Kept his chin up though, unlike Rosberg, who became anonymous post Monaco.

What I found interesting was that the more Hulkenberg crushed Di Resta the more Sky and the Beeb started to ignore him. Fairweather fans by any standards; abandoning their self-proclaimed ubermegahyperdriver when the going got tough.

What I found interesting was that the more Hulkenberg crushed Di Resta the more Sky and the Beeb started to ignore him. Fairweather fans by any standards; abandoning their self-proclaimed ubermegahyperdriver when the going got tough.

I agree that Di Resta's stock has dropped; he was similar to Perez in that, up to Japan he'd been holding his own, but Hulkenberg really built up an advantage while Di Resta was struggling, whilst Di Resta didn't capitalise on Hulkenberg's rustiness early season. It was also Hulkenberg who gave Force India a fastest lap, and led a race for them.

Yep, Di Resta, to be fair, is no mug, so Hulkenberg's gradual breaking of him is all the more reason to think Nick deserves a place in the top 5. His performance against a very good Button in a very good McLaren at Brazil just made me all the more sad that he's not got a top drive for next year

What's this?

Best is not the same as fastest. Remember that? lol

Lord.

Yes they are, nobody saying they had perfect season like its often said about Alonso. most of the people picking on Alonso here are doing that only to highlight that Alonso wasnt league above Hamilton or Vettel. By you often mentioned double standard is actually applied rather by you than others.

Yea, I agree Alonso wasn't a league above Lewis, at least. But considering that Lewis and Vettel had much superior cars for most of the season, I think Alonso's raceday performances were really spectacular. Not once was Alonso able to take any opportunity to waltz off in the distance in a clear best car. He had to fight for every single position he was able to and he often got way more than even I expected. Vettel and Lewis didn't really surprise me in this way most of the time, which is why I put Alonso ahead in the rankings.

Yea, I agree Alonso wasn't a league above Lewis, at least. But considering that Lewis and Vettel had much superior cars for most of the season, I think Alonso's raceday performances were really spectacular. Not once was Alonso able to take any opportunity to waltz off in the distance in a clear best car. He had to fight for every single position he was able to and he often got way more than even I expected. Vettel and Lewis didn't really surprise me in this way most of the time, which is why I put Alonso ahead in the rankings.

But was it above what you expected because you objectively judged the capability of the Ferrari, and what had happened on the track to other drivers, or because you bought his "I'm in such a bad car"-story? If I expect a driver to finish 7th every time, and he always does better, should that not be an indication that maybe the expectations are a little off?

But was it above what you expected because you objectively judged the capability of the Ferrari, and what had happened on the track to other drivers, or because you bought his "I'm in such a bad car"-story? If I expect a driver to finish 7th every time, and he always does better, should that not be an indication that maybe the expectations are a little off?

I'm a Ferrari fan, not an Alonso fan, so I'd rather give credit to the car, but I cant deny what the guy did this season. Lewis is one of the few drivers I dont like, but I will still give him credit where its due, so its not as if I'm trying to skew things one way or the other. I'd much rather be able to say it was largely Ferrari that allowed Alonso to fight for the WDC battle, but while they played their part, it was largely Alonso who performed above and beyond in a large percentage of races.

I know you dont agree as you're right there with SpaMaster in having attempted to downplay Alonso's acheivements throughout the year, so I'm really not going to justify my opinion much further with y'all. We can either agree to disagree or I can just ignore your posts.

As always, no matter what happens, SOMEHOW Alonso and Hamilton ALWAYS get more credit, just because who knows when some decided that no matter what happens, if they lose it must be other stuff fault, as they are the best by default. That graphic joke of the circular logic against Vettel looked a funny joke to me but that´s how some people mind really works.

As always, no matter what happens, SOMEHOW Alonso and Hamilton ALWAYS get more credit

Its not 'somehow', though. They are fantastic drivers that both had fantastic seasons. I'm not sure why you're so confused about it.

As always, no matter what happens, SOMEHOW Alonso and Hamilton ALWAYS get more credit, just because who knows when some decided that no matter what happens, if they lose it must be other stuff fault, as they are the best by default. That graphic joke of the circular logic against Vettel looked a funny joke to me but that´s how some people mind really works.

It just shows from which countries the most people are.

Best is not the same as fastest. Remember that? lol

Lord.


Yea, I agree Alonso wasn't a league above Lewis, at least. But considering that Lewis and Vettel had much superior cars for most of the season, I think Alonso's raceday performances were really spectacular. Not once was Alonso able to take any opportunity to waltz off in the distance in a clear best car. He had to fight for every single position he was able to and he often got way more than even I expected. Vettel and Lewis didn't really surprise me in this way most of the time, which is why I put Alonso ahead in the rankings.

I think even victories were very strongly fought for last year due to immense closeness of the field. Best example and my favorite quali season from last year at once would be Valencia Q2. First 13 drivers were split by 0,3 sec. on such a lengthy track.

Anyway I concur to all who put Alonso, Lewis or Vettel as best driver in 2012. To decide among them is nitpicking and personal preferences come into play. Leave any of them out of top 3 thats what is dubious in my opinion. People are talking about Alonsos races from Japan to Brasil as a reason for not putting him as unquestionable numero uno and thats all right IMO.

Best is not the same as fastest. Remember that? lol

Lord.

Nice job evading, master. All we know is you don't want to answer what car has been better than Ferrari to be no.2.

Ferrari always a opverall good car. But Alonso is always a excelent driver. Above the others? maybe not as he made that slight mistake in Japan and didn't excell in the latter part of the season. In fact in terms of maximizing points/quality of the car I guess Raikkonen was the man this year. Half of that was quality [Spa, Barhein,Hungary, Abu Dhabi] half was luck [Spa, Valencia, Abu Dabhi, Brazil, Germany]

I'm a Kimi fan...but I wouldn't put him in my Top 3.

Why?

I think he was a little "rusty" in the early phases (understandably so) and Grosjean pulled out and uncorked way too many faster times on Saturdays.

Again, I think you can give Kimi a little 'slack' for being out of single-seater open-wheelers since late 2009...but, similarly, I can't penalize Vettel-Hamilton-Alonso for being in the category all throughout.

So, Kimi is Number 4 for me. But superior to Button and Webber and Rosberg and Maldonado (i.e. the other race winners).

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 10 December 2012 - 15:11.

I'm a Kimi fan...but I wouldn't put him in my Top 3.

Why?

I think he was a little "rusty" in the early phases (understandably so) and Grosjean pulled out and uncorked way too many faster times on Saturdays.

Again, I think you can give Kimi a little 'slack' for being out of single-seater open-wheelers since late 2009...but, similarly, I can't penalize Vettel-Hamilton-Alonso for being in the category all throughout.

So, Kimi is Number 4 for me. But superior to Button and Webber and Rosberg and Maldonado (i.e. the other race winners).

I think this Kimi being rusty in the beginning is exaggerated way too much. It has become default assumption no matter it was true or not. Kimi had very very less, if there was anything at all, rustiness in the beginning. His qualy showing would have been the same with or without the break. The qualy difference was mainly due to the difference in driving styles of the two drivers. Boullier and other team personnel have explicitly stated the same. You put them both in a McLaren that heats the tyres much better, and I don't think you would see that difference. The car being kind to tyres had a lot to do with the two Lotus drivers trying to extract the maximum respectively for qualy.

I think this Kimi being rusty in the beginning is exaggerated way too much.

I said he was "rusty" in the early phases. It was an opinion independent of the one-lap vs Grosjean opinion.

Perhaps I should have said his "race craft was rusty early on"/"he was more cautious and not in maximum attack mode early on"...

There's also the very specific steering that Kimi didn't find to his liking in the first third of the season. Unfortunately you still have to get on with it...which is what he did...but I do not honestly think Kimi was in the Top 3 this year.

He was in the Top 3 in 2009 and, prior to that, 2003-2007.

I expect him to be Top 3 next year as there's room for improvement. It will be tough on another front, though: It'll be hard to beat 20/20 in finishes and 19/20 finishes in points. That side of the equation will be a tough nut to crack.

Edited by RayInTorontoCanada, 10 December 2012 - 17:28.

One man who would support Kimi as the top driver this season would be Sebastian Vettel. Without Kimi's spectacular return and driving skills it would be Alonso winning the wdc instead of Vettel. His win at Abu Dhabi and the contact with Alonso in Japan sealed the championship for Seb. Avoiding Vettel at the start in Brazil was also a championship saver.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 11 December 2012 - 00:54.

Without Kimi's spectacular return and driving skills it would be Alonso winning the wdc instead of Vettel. His win at Abu Dhabi and the contact with Alonso in Japan sealed the championship for Seb.

Well to be fair, it was Kimi's spin that resulted in Alonso qualifying back where he did in Japan.

You cant isolate incidents like that, though. The season took place over 20 weekends, not just a couple. I think its silly when people say that Grosjean cost Alonso the championship, too, for instance. There's lots of blame and credit to go round.

I said he was "rusty" in the early phases. It was an opinion independent of the one-lap vs Grosjean opinion.

Perhaps I should have said his "race craft was rusty early on"/"he was more cautious and not in maximum attack mode early on"...

Looking a bit into it, I don´t dare saying his early qualifying sessions were any better/worse than his last ones. In Oz he fell not exactly because of lack of speed. In Malaysia he did a good job but served a grid penalty. In China he did a good job. In Bahrain he looked on fire but they decided not to qualify normally. Quite good start. His quali form slump came later if you ask me... and to be fair even Vettel and Alonso had similar qualifying slumps during parts of the season too.

About his racecraft and wheel to wheel commitment, there´s absolutely no case. It was all there from day one.

1. Sebastian Vettel
3rd championship in row and such young age. Respect.

2. Kimi Räikkönen.
Unmotivated driver came to show up himself to people he has lost the plot and is embarrasing moving chicane with backmarkers. He failed with that.

3. Lewis Hamilton.
Very quick but also unfortunate. Due lot of mechanical faults and few pitstop screw ups lost most likely his 2nd championship.

4. Jenson Button.
Season was roller coaster for him as performance, but when all went well, he was unstoppable.

5. Mark Webber.
Was under shadow of his teammate, but also won 2 GPs.

6. Nico Rosberg.
Car was overall bug, but hey...GP win

7. Felipe Massa.
Second fiddle player. Got himself together at end of season and drove well though had to get sacrified for team mate's intres.

8. Sergio Perez.
Middle of seaon his race speed was phenomenal. After securing McLaren seat for next season he did show some major screw ups. Hopefully all goes well at McLaren!

9. Roman Grosjean.
Though few years back he was promoted to F1 but found himself unemployed after season I count him a rookie. Lot of rookie errors, but when he drove flawlessly, he was very quick. If he keeps Lotus seat for 2013, he should mature: be both fast and not do errors.

10. Pastor Maldonado.
Pileup maestro too. I include him into list only due he won one GP with Williams and car was supposed to be underdog. F1 grid's most expensive pay driver after Fernando Alonso.

Edited by The Kanisteri, 11 December 2012 - 12:43.

What I found interesting was that the more Hulkenberg crushed Di Resta the more Sky and the Beeb started to ignore him. Fairweather fans by any standards; abandoning their self-proclaimed ubermegahyperdriver when the going got tough.

Bob Fernley talking about Nico & Paul.

Fernley added. "Up to Singapore, Paul had dominated and Nico was feeling down. Since Singapore it went the other way around. That's how it's gone with them all season, they're so close.

I don't agree that Paul dominated pre-Singapore but he had the upper hand, post Singapore there's no doubt Nico was the better of the two. Its funny how much backlash a driver can get through no actions of his own, not to mention performances at the end of the year seems to override the rest of the season in people opinions. Nout as fickle as fans!

That quote is absolute rubbish. I followed the pair closer than most teams this year, I would argue Hulk had the upper hand from as early as Monaco. Singapore was hardly a turning point, but an exception.

Edited by Disgrace, 11 December 2012 - 20:27.

Di Resta had the upper hand only from Malaysia to Bahrain. By the rest of the season, he was not beating Hulk on a regular basis, but just on occassion. In my opinion, he was quite lucky to keep the points advantage for so long.

One man who would support Kimi as the top driver this season would be Sebastian Vettel. Without Kimi's spectacular return and driving skills it would be Alonso winning the wdc instead of Vettel. His win at Abu Dhabi and the contact with Alonso in Japan sealed the championship for Seb. Avoiding Vettel at the start in Brazil was also a championship saver.

Yes Kimi won the WDC for Vettel

10. Pastor Maldonado.
Pileup maestro too. I include him into list only due he won one GP with Williams and car was supposed to be underdog. F1 grid's most expensive pay driver after Fernando Alonso.

Sure, he came to F1 as a pure pay driver and he still is, but putting his PDVSA money aside. I think Maldonado has shown he has the speed to be in F1. He destroyed Bruno Senna this season (though not points, but in pure speed) and he's very fast when he wants to be. I mean, people always rooted for Montoya and Maldonado has a lot of similarities to him. Will be an interesting battle between a highly rated Bottas and Maldonado next season.

1. Sebastian Vettel
2. Kimi Räikkönen.
3. Lewis Hamilton.
4. Jenson Button.
5. Mark Webber.
6. Nico Rosberg.
7. Felipe Massa.
8. Sergio Perez.
9. Roman Grosjean.
10. Pastor Maldonado.

Usually I would shrug and say each to their own, but seriously. What a sad state of affairs if people can convince themselves to post dribble like this.

1= Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel. Impossible to know who would have triumphed if they had had equal equipment this year, but these three were above the rest. None of them had many in any mediocre races, and I don't remember any major mistakes from any of them.
4. Kimi. Sometimes difficult to tell where the Lotus deserved to be, but a he showed Schumacher how a comeback can occur successfully.
5= Schumacher, Button. Some sublime performances from them, but a few too many mistakes or also ran races.
7. Hulkenburg. Very solid and occasionally put the car where it oughtn't have been.
8. Maldonaldo, Perez. Flashes of brilliance followed by mediocre races.
10. Massa. Great improvement in the second half of the season. I had written him off.

Usually I would shrug and say each to their own, but seriously. What a sad state of affairs if people can convince themselves to post dribble like this.

That tells you that only because you've been a member of these forums for the last 13 years doesn't make you exactly right on the head or at least an objective person

Usually I would shrug and say each to their own, but seriously. What a sad state of affairs if people can convince themselves to post dribble like this.

So my list doesn't suit for you so it's totally wrong. You are bellend, aren't you?

Sebastian Vettel
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Jensen Button
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Lewis Hamilton
Kimi Raikonnen
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Mark Webber
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Roman Grosjean
Filippe Massa
Nico Hulk
Sergio Perez
Nico Rosberg
Kamui Kobayashi

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Alonso choked, spit and spat, schemed, played dirty tricks and underperformed like hell. So its not on the top 10.