Norbert Haug to leave Mercedes

They also forget the 5 years they took to get the first Ferrari titles. Ok, anyone can argue that in those five years they have shown more competitiveness in any one of the years than Mercedes has shown in three years altogether. But again, nearly everybody forgot - or does not even know - by now, how very much different F1 was back then. Neither two of those teams were so very much crippled as Mercedes was in 2010.

How do you explain them being beaten by Sauber and Force India on track regulalry (if not in WCC)? At one point Jordans were only ahead of Minardis and had no budget either, Midland did not exactly shoehorn money into the team either! Similarly Sauber coped with loss of all manufacturer funding and their major sponsor to Mercedes !

Why did Haug not sign Maldonado or Perez to bring more money in to Mercedes team, instead of bringing an expensive driver out of retirement, for instance? Those extra millions may have been helpful, with the trust in Rosberg as the lead paid star.

Edited by V8 Fireworks, 17 December 2012 - 17:51.

[...]
Why did Haug not sign Maldonado or Perez to bring more money in to Mercedes team, instead of bringing an expensive driver out of retirement, for instance? Those extra millions may have been helpful, with the trust in Rosberg as the lead paid star.

Not sure if... Ó_ò

You're a German car manufacturer, well not just one, you're Mercedes Benz, and you got to choose between Michael Schumacher - who is not just seventime F1 world champion but also by far the most famous person in German motorsports and well known all over the world - and some nonames from Mexico and Venezuela respectively. You don't even spend the fracture of a second thinking. Not. Even. A. Fracture. Otherwise you're plain stupid or related to either of MAL/PER. :x

He must be the luckiest man in the world.

Has any other machinist managed to go from that to running a F1 team?

Life must be lonely these days for Ross without Maximilian's protection.

The harder he works the luckier he gets hey?

The harder he works the luckier he gets hey?

More like the inverse.

Don't you marvel at his good fortune of buying out the remnants of Honda for pennies on the dollar. Then getting a favorable ruling that allowed "his" car to run roughshod for a few months, which was all that was needed to put a big enough points gap between Brawn and everyone else. Then deciding to close up shop and nailing the two largest catches of his life in Haug and Zetsche, thus allowing him to have a 9 figure bank account was another stroke of good fortune.

I think Ross should title his "tell-all" autobiography something like, Hooked: How I Caught the Biggest Fish in F1 (With a little help from my friends) with a foreword by Max Mosley.

Max's foreword could start something like this...

I first met Ross in 1978 at the milling machine in March's Bicester facilities. What struck me most about Ross was his intent focus on the task at hand. He was hard at work at putting some holes in a piece of sheet metal for one of our cars. But, unbeknownst to me at the time, that intent focus hid a different side of him that few have ever known. Ross never missed a chance to be friendly to me and to offer to assist me with any work that I needed help with. It was then that I knew he would be asset for me down the road. His singular focus was what led me to appoint him as my personal eyes and ears at my preferred winning team at Benetton, and then Ferrari...

Or is that too much...?

More like the inverse.

Don't you marvel at his good fortune of buying out the remnants of Honda for pennies on the dollar. Then getting a favorable ruling that allowed "his" car to run roughshod for a few months, which was all that was needed to put a big enough points gap between Brawn and everyone else. Then deciding to close up shop and nailing the two largest catches of his life in Haug and Zetsche, thus allowing him to have a 9 figure bank account was another stroke of good fortune.

I think Ross should title his "tell-all" autobiography something like, Hooked: How I Caught the Biggest Fish in F1 (With a little help from my friends) with a foreword by Max Mosley.

Max's foreword could start something like this...

I first met Ross in 1978 at the milling machine in March's Bicester facilities. What struck me most about Ross was his intent focus on the task at hand. He was hard at work at putting some holes in a piece of sheet metal for one of our cars. But, unbeknownst to me at the time, that intent focus hid a different side of him that few have ever known. Ross never missed a chance to be friendly to me and to offer to assist me with any work that I needed help with. It was then that I knew he would be asset for me down the road. His singular focus was what led me to appoint him as my personal eyes and ears at my preferred winning team at Benetton, and then Ferrari...

Or is that too much...?

No. I assume that the 34 years between the milling machine and the Merc deal were filled with hard work, commitment and desire.

No. I assume that the 34 years between the milling machine and the Merc deal were filled with hard work, commitment and desire.

I'm not really sure what he was technically directing at Benetton. It's always been clear Flav and Tom were calling the shots there anyway.

I'm not really sure what he was technically directing at Benetton. It's always been clear Flav and Tom were calling the shots there anyway.

I'm really not sure why you would be questioning his role. If it were really others that were calling all the shots then I'm sure MS would be fully aware of that and would not have pushed to get him to Ferrari.

This is just Tyrrell/BAR/Honda/Brawn GP with a silver paint job.

You should be grateful, Merc would still be fighting with Caterham and Marussia if they'd tried to do it in house.

How do you explain them being beaten by Sauber and Force India on track regulalry (if not in WCC)? At one point Jordans were only ahead of Minardis and had no budget either, Midland did not exactly shoehorn money into the team either! Similarly Sauber coped with loss of all manufacturer funding and their major sponsor to Mercedes !

Why did Haug not sign Maldonado or Perez to bring more money in to Mercedes team, instead of bringing an expensive driver out of retirement, for instance? Those extra millions may have been helpful, with the trust in Rosberg as the lead paid star.

Maldonado or Perez in 2010? Seriously? How do the drivers come into this anyway?? They obviously don't give a flying fxxx about money. They invested hugely after 2011. It is entirely possible that it was Haug who was naively thinking that the rest of the top teams will live up to the RRA agreement, and downsize to the obligatory levels. We all know that did not happen, to the extent that Red Bull has spent a mind-blowing 630 million in 2012. I hardly think Ross Brawn has not warned them that this is not going to work, his history just indicates the opposite. So what happened? They had to start restructure and resource re-grouping, recruiting, investing, more than one year late. We are speaking of ONLY three seasons, out of which the first is a relative miracle, considering a crippled and downsized team, one year early to the other top teams. Considering this year, if you remember, Brawn has ditched the 2008 Honda without a blink of the eye, to make a push for the 2009 car, and half the world was working on the 2009 Honda, AKA BGP01, we know how that payed off. I suspect he ditched the W03 quite early this year, for similar, although obligatory reasons, and by now, half the world is working at Brackley too. They have a new engineering staff, who had NOTHING to do with this car, basically. The last dinosaur who had anything meaningful to do with the W03, Bigois, has been shown the door mid-season. That, you must agree, is not something that helps in-season development process, especially if the car has aero-problems, and 'the' Bigois was aero chief. All MS and NR has done from mid-season was use the races to test for 2013 and 2014. By the end of the season, they even said so. It was pretty frustrating, yes. It pissed me off too. Was it a mess? Yessssss sirrrr, it was. As i said several times before, communication was not the strongest point of Merc so far. Hindsight is always wise though. If you add to all this some teething problems between the new staff and the old, and spice it all with the corporate universe, you get Haug going down, possibly not the last one either.

anyway, sorry for the rant, really, nothing personal, just came out in a breath.

Good one too.

You should be grateful, Merc would still be fighting with Caterham and Marussia if they'd tried to do it in house.

I fear they might have been better off starting at the bottom since it might have instilled a greater sense of urgency in those working in Brackley.

Szoelloe-

I can't imagine Haug would have been naive about teams living up to the RRA because he's been around F1 long enough. Given all the time he spent with Ron Dennis, he had to know the general deceit half the teams are capable of.

Szoelloe-

I can't imagine Haug would have been naive about teams living up to the RRA because he's been around F1 long enough. Given all the time he spent with Ron Dennis, he had to know the general deceit half the teams are capable of.

Surprised it took so long for a pathetic dig at Ron Dennis to appear.

Surprised it took so long for a pathetic dig at Ron Dennis to appear.

At the Frankfurt Auto Show in 1993 (September I believe) Ron had a handshake deal with Bob Lutz for McLaren to use Lambo V12's for the 1994 season.

So, while you may want to pretend deceit doesn't exist in F1, I'm most certainly going to remind you it does.

And do you really think Flav was the only one to ever do underhanded things in F1?

Yeah, it's not like there's a history of kickbacks, shady business dealings, special rules for one team with regards to purse disbursement or any lurid S&M tales...

A few days old, but relevant to topic, as it touches on relationship between two men:

DW | 13.12.2012 | Dr. Zetsche

"For more than 20 years, Norbert Haug was the face of the Mercedes-Benz presence in motor sport," Zetsche said. "For me, he put his stamp on an entire era, and, as a highlight, he was responsible for the successful comeback of the Silver Arrows to Formula One."

DW on Haug's departure

At the Frankfurt Auto Show in 1993 (September I believe) Ron had a handshake deal with Bob Lutz for McLaren to use Lambo V12's for the 1994 season.

So, while you may want to pretend deceit doesn't exist in F1, I'm most certainly going to remind you it does.

Straw man attack. Classy.

Haug leaving may be a good thing despite him being a great man and hugely influential in Mercedes past successes.

The fact is Mercedes have not done as well as they should have and in all top companies that responsibility falls on the top man.

Haug may well have been excellent in years gone by but may not be the right man in today's F1?

Good luck to his replacement.

Haug leaving may be a good thing despite him being a great man and hugely influential in Mercedes past successes.

The fact is Mercedes have not done as well as they should have and in all top companies that responsibility falls on the top man.

Obviously they haven't heard of it at some other famous front teams...

Straw man attack. Classy.

Well, you did completely miss what I said in the original post...so....

Yeah, it's not like there's a history of kickbacks, shady business dealings, special rules for one team with regards to purse disbursement or any lurid S&M tales...

Good heavens!

Perish the thought that things are not innocent!

Haug leaving may be a good thing despite him being a great man and hugely influential in Mercedes past successes.

The fact is Mercedes have not done as well as they should have and in all top companies that responsibility falls on the top man.

Ross Brawn is the main person in-charge of the Mercedes F1 team. If someone has to take the responsibility first, it must be him. That's what I don't understand. Why does Haug go first in the name of responsibility? May be he is more dispensable, and someone needs to be made a scapegoat, rather than the real purpose of responsibility? Well, that's how corporate world operate both in success and failure.

Ross Brawn is the main person in-charge of the Mercedes F1 team. If someone has to take the responsibility first, it must be him. That's what I don't understand. Why does Haug go first in the name of responsibility? May be he is more dispensable, and someone needs to be made a scapegoat, rather than the real purpose of responsibility? Well, that's how corporate world operate both in success and failure.

Maybe Haug feels guilty that he has not provided F1 team with conditions ensuring stable and progressive development. He touches on couple of factors, but then he says - I do not want to make excuses, which, in certain way, is an honorable thing, mostly forgotten these days where buck really stops. Still, I feel, that we do not know full story.

Edited by Sakae, 18 December 2012 - 17:55.

Ross Brawn is the main person in-charge of the Mercedes F1 team. If someone has to take the responsibility first, it must be him. That's what I don't understand. Why does Haug go first in the name of responsibility? May be he is more dispensable, and someone needs to be made a scapegoat, rather than the real purpose of responsibility? Well, that's how corporate world operate both in success and failure.

Welcome to the corporate world. Somebody had to go. Haug's own words, if I am correct. By moving Brawn, they will do more harm than good now. That should be kind of obvious to anybody atm. So he went down. That's all. I know no team that would have moved Brawn in this situation. I know several that would have not moved Haug, though.

Well, you did completely miss what I said in the original post...so....

No, I didn't. You accused me of something I did not state. Apologise.

No, I didn't. You accused me of something I did not state. Apologise.

Please re-read what was said.

I never accused you of saying anything. I merely pointed out to you that my "dig" at Ron Dennis was hardly a dig, as he has been involved in plenty of deceit over the years. I gave a specific example regarding Ron's deceit. Not to mention that Haug would have been well aware of all sorts of things that went on with top teams over the years, hence my insistence that Haug couldn't really be that naive regarding the workings of F1 given how much time he spent involved with it. So, there won't be an apology, because there isn't actually anything to apologize for.

I am sad to see Haug go. I'm sure he will enjoy his retirement from the pirranha club.

Thanks guys for pointing out that Dr Z's current contract expires next year... and for pointing out that BMW cleaned their clock in DTM - now it finally makes sense.... cause from a purely F1 point of view, I couldnt see it.

I'll now leave this thread to those who think that it is a thread about Ross...

Edited by jjcale, 18 December 2012 - 20:12.

Thanks guys for pointing out that Dr Z's current contract expires next year... and for pointing out that BMW cleaned their clock in DTM - now it finally makes sense.... cause from a purely F1 point of view, I couldnt see it.

I'll now leave this thread to those who think that it is a thread about Ross...

Did you think it is?

Did you think it is?

No ....

Did you think it is?

Best as I can figure Ross and the Hutt go together.

Brawn's perpetual underachievers in Brackley pretty much helped to seal Norbert's fate. The good news is that if old Norbert is worth his weight in anything besides bratwurst, other teams --whether they be F1 teams or involved in other series-- will be looking to sign him.

No ....

Oh. Maybe I was too abrupt. Meant no harm. I get it now.

That may very well be the case, but does not matter from the Daimler board perspective.
Haug, was "Vice President Mercedes-Benz Motorsport", a director on the Daimler board, and his resort was Motorsport.
Whatever happens in his resort, will be his responsibility. He appointed Brawn to get the job done, if Brawn does not get the job done, then it falls back to Haug, because Brawn was "his man".
As things don't go the way they were intended to go, Haug's position was under pressure.
He may took the fall, to buy his men (Brawn, Fry etc.) and his idea (MGP) a bit more time to come good, or he maybe just got out before the whole thing blows up - that is open to speculation.

It's worth to remember, that Zetschke's contract as CEO of Daimler runs out next year, and in the moment things don't look too good.
So his head is on the block too, so to speak. F1 may not be his biggest hassle, but it's very much in the public face, so any bad news PR does not help.

Haug got Daimler committed to that adventurer, he laid out the plan, set the goals defined the roadmap and milestones (time frame, results, costs, risk, exit strategy etc.). Based on his proposal, he got the o.k. from the board to go ahead.
After this he is on his own. If he fails to hit his targets, whatever they may be, he is in hot water.
Who down the line is to blame, Brawn, the drivers, the windtunnel, the head aerodynamist, the engineers, the tea lady etc. , does not matter for the Daimler board.
It's Haug's job to get the job done, and best on time and within budget.
If he set himself unrealistic targets, that's bad, but who is to blame for it?

Thank you TC3000. Thank you.
So clear and simple.
Why it's been so difficult for the esteemed posters here to grasp is beyond my, and obviously their, comprehension.
You've sussed it and I'm grateful.

He must be the luckiest man in the world.

Has any other machinist managed to go from that to running a F1 team?

Life must be lonely these days for Ross without Maximilian's protection.

Sir Frank Williams used to sell tins of baked beans , so presumably he was even luckier.

German press are saying Haug's F1 role will not be replaced.
Makes sense as the Brawn/Lauda combination will now liaise with the Mercedes board (used to be Brawn/Haug).

There will only be a new DTM boss.

German press are saying Haug's F1 role will not be replaced.
Makes sense as the Brawn/Lauda combination will now liaise with the Mercedes board (used to be Brawn/Haug).

There will only be a new DTM boss.

This should be quite interesting once 2013 is under way. I wonder if Lauda will be throwing people under the bus on RTL.

German press are saying Haug's F1 role will not be replaced.
Makes sense as the Brawn/Lauda combination will now liaise with the Mercedes board (used to be Brawn/Haug).

There will only be a new DTM boss.

I've read that too but OTOH various papers have Gerhard Berger and even Christian Horner as successors that Mercedes looked at.

Hardly criticism anywhere on Haug though and none for Ross either except from Haug's pal HJ Stuck.

I've read that too but OTOH various papers have Gerhard Berger and even Christian Horner as successors that Mercedes looked at.

Hardly criticism anywhere on Haug though and none for Ross either except from Haug's pal HJ Stuck.

That's what I find curious about the entire situation at Mercedes, and it's also why I happen to so vocal regarding Haug and Brawn.

People seem to be unwilling to seriously assess the situation with these team from the media down to the fans. Why this is, I am not sure as this incarnation of the Silver Arrows F1 team has not done anything within the last three seasons that should even absolve them of criticism. This team has been a colossal disaster given what the expectations were going into the 2010 season. There's just promises that "next year" will be the year everything comes together. It's what people will start saying if 2013 is as dismal as 2012 was.

With Haug gone now this could be a potential big step forward. I still feel Brawn needs to go as well, since all of this has transpired under his watch too.

That's what I find curious about the entire situation at Mercedes, and it's also why I happen to so vocal regarding Haug and Brawn.

People seem to be unwilling to seriously assess the situation with these team from the media down to the fans. Why this is, I am not sure as this incarnation of the Silver Arrows F1 team has not done anything within the last three seasons that should even absolve them of criticism. This team has been a colossal disaster given what the expectations were going into the 2010 season. There's just promises that "next year" will be the year everything comes together. It's what people will start saying if 2013 is as dismal as 2012 was.

With Haug gone now this could be a potential big step forward. I still feel Brawn needs to go as well, since all of this has transpired under his watch too.

I honestly see no reason to think this. He might be the one that the board hangs the blame on, but he is not the one designing and building the cars, and I don't see people flocking to Merc just because Lauda is there.

I honestly see no reason to think this. He might be the one that the board hangs the blame on, but he is not the one designing and building the cars, and I don't see people flocking to Merc just because Lauda is there.

With Haug gone, it takes away perhaps the only obstacle to removing Brawn if need be.

What Mercedes problem is based on a few things I've heard is an organizational problem. There are too many chefs in the kitchen so to speak. Given how ego-driven engineers can be, there needs to be someone laying the law down in one form, or another. There must be specific direction this team has to go, and needs to be led to. I believe leadership is quite non-existent here.

As far as Lauda goes, if I worked for MGP, with Lauda's arrival, I'd be looking for a new job right now. I don't trust Lauda, and feel he will do more harm than good.

Haug's job being divided is really not a such big surprise and it was anticipated that more than one brain is needed to handle workload Haug carried. Anyone who tried to work 110+ hrs/week for extended period of time knows for how long it is possible before everything turns south on you.

This is just a dress rehearsal for the purge that will come, all this good for nothing pre-owned and way past their best before date individuals, like Brawn, Fry, Costa, Willis etc.

Edited by Rasputin, 19 December 2012 - 18:14.

This is just a dress rehearsal for the purge that will come, all this good for nothing pre-owned and way past their best before date individuals, like Brawn, Fry, Costa, Willis etc.

I do imagine Zetsche stays up at night sharpening his proverbial axe.

In my estimates, should he find out at any point during the F1 season that he is not wanted back by the Daimler board in 2014, I suppose he will be taking down a few of the F1 team's members with him.

I do imagine Zetsche stays up at night sharpening his proverbial axe.

...

More like looking for the dullest spoon in MrsZ's kitchen.

Brawn's message to Michael over the radio in Singapore would be his dying words as Zetsche takes him down.

"What are you doing! What are you doing!"

In my opinion, I think Schumachers unwillingness to sign the contract and lack of faith in what was coming down the pipe must have really upset the Mercedes board. Something had to be done and I don't believe signing Lewis is the wisest of moves and if Haug was responsible for that direction, then that might have been the reasoning.

The fact they brought online midseason the larger scale windtunnel and lead to confusing data suggests its probably already going impact there start in 2013 and thereby, leaving them on the backfoot and we've year over year if you start bad forget it and 2014 being a huge change, they'll just dedicate all there resources to it.

Bringing in Lauda was a joke, he's a figure from a bi gone era and his only useful purpose is:

1. To clean house, has the balls to do it.
2. A media distraction and will provide quotes to keep peoples eyes off the real problem behind the scenes.

Losing an upswing Schumacher, losing Haug experience and engine team experiences, design team of Willis and Costa, Brawn making repeated silly race strategy calls, Rosberg aka the new Trulli...

Tell me again what's promising about the 2013 Mercedes season. Hamilton, a driver IMO that hasn't shown any real ability to bring a team together and causes friction at best..

Sounds like the perfect storm.. Maybe Bernies comments about wanting a smaller grid is foreshadowing what's to happen of MGP in 2015...

Brawn's message to Michael over the radio in Singapore would be his dying words as Zetsche takes him down.

"What are you doing! What are you doing!"

Bringing in Lauda was a joke, he's a figure from a bi gone era and his only useful purpose is:

1. To clean house, has the balls to do it.
2. A media distraction and will provide quotes to keep peoples eyes off the real problem behind the scenes.

Losing an upswing Schumacher, losing Haug experience and engine team experiences, design team of Willis and Costa, Brawn making repeated silly race strategy calls, Rosberg aka the new Trulli...

Tell me again what's promising about the 2013 Mercedes season. Hamilton, a driver IMO that hasn't shown any real ability to bring a team together and causes friction at best..

Sounds like the perfect storm.. Maybe Bernies comments about wanting a smaller grid is foreshadowing what's to happen of MGP in 2015...

I like the way you think Paco.

People forget what Lauda did to Jaguar 10 years ago, and the 8 figure payday he got from running that ship right into the ground. No one in their right mind would bring Lauda in unless they were looking to maybe lay the groundwork to roll up this operation for good in a few years.

I'm certain Michael wanted to drive again in 2013, but his hesitancy to commit was based on the continually under-performing cars that Mercedes kept rolling out. He looked like he had quite enough of the whole thing by September, and who could blame him? All this time it's never been clear as to who is actually running this team. Sure in theory Brawn is running it. Yet there's nothing going on there that says anything other than this team is a rudderless ship adrift in a large sea.

Good catch on the race strategy calls...Ross continues to be extolled as the master strategist to have in F1. When you look back to the Ferrari years, and what some are doing now, you notice how the Frenchman is running the FIA...and Ross is well, just fielding a subpar F1 team?

That's a great film. I haven't watched in awhile, but I think I may rewatch it later.