Drivers with great natural speed who lacked in other departments

No - lacks the dedication. Like spending three days before the USGP this year in Vegas. Such a freakish talent though that it's not really apparent. Should have won the '08 title but turned off having climbed the mountain and chillaxed; given the Ferrari was good enough to push Massa to within a midge's minim of the title, Raikkonen should have won it by Monza.

Edited by 2ms, 27 December 2012 - 12:49.

Agreed. I'm surprised OP didn't mention him, he's the classic example of the thread title.

But there seems to be some discrepancy in how people are interpreting this thread.

That 'wrong development path' didn't seem to stop Massa getting within a gnat's cock of being WDC.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 27 December 2012 - 13:08.

That was Massa's best year but Kimi underperformed also. Backs up his 'not making the most of his potential'-ness.

Edited by 2ms, 27 December 2012 - 13:25.

How far do we go back?

Going by the list of GPwinners that didn't win a championship we can mention:

Reutemann
Peterson
Webber
Ickx
Arnoux
JPM
Gilles
Watson
Pironi

All drivers that at some point during their career had week-ends of utter domination and thus showed speed.

Are there particular reasons why you say this, or have you accepted it in large part as gospel from this predominantly British forum where the proportion of Alonso and Hamilton fans is far greater than in other forums from countries less focused on British drivers and their teammates?

p.s. if Raikkonen didn't dominate his teammate this season then I don't know what dominating a teammate is. More 200% as many points scored. Along with defeating all McLs, a Red Bull, a Ferrari, in a broker-than-ever lately midfield team that hadn't gotten nearly as good result in over 5 years

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 27 December 2012 - 13:58.

It seems to me that the one year Raikkonen had a WDC-capable car, he won it! Every other year the car's either been hopelessly unreliable, too slow, or in the case of 2008 got screwed up in the middle of the season by wrong development path.

Do you think some people are including (in "lacked in other departments") not having competitive enough equipment? Nonetheless, he still so handily beat so many of the other drivers being mentioned here such as Coulthard, JPM, Fisichella (i.e. was big part of the reason why they were perceived as unsuccessful) , along with being on the "WDC podium" 50% of his career, so it's not as if he hasn't been damn near just as successful as anyone else.

Edited by boldhakka, 27 December 2012 - 14:41.

Simply, Raikkonen doesn't have the ruthlessness and desperation to win multiple WDCs that characterizes his chief competitors. This is a good thing in my eyes, but I can see why certain teams may view this as a downside.

Edited by ali_M, 27 December 2012 - 14:53.

In recent enough times, Montoya takes the award for me. Damned quick and consistently so. However, other issues as a driver got too much in the way of his success as an F1 driver.

Raikkonen is another, though he has won a championship. Nitpicking comes into play when discussing proven championships he winning drivers. He could well be lacking in the dedication part where getting the most of his car is concerned when it comes to putting in the necessary involvement to get the car to his liking. However, I don't see where he lacks motivation, race pace or application come a race weekend. The fact that Ferrari's development direction went away from Kimi's preference for such a large part of the season is testament to this. He really tried that year, but the car was not to his liking. It was quite clear this was the case.

Edited by boldhakka, 27 December 2012 - 15:12.

Same could have been said about Michael Schumacheer.

He could have been an 11 time World Champion...

Don't know if that is a criticism or the biggest compliment ever.

"Michael, your failed because you should have been an 11 time champion instead of a mere 7 time champion".

Edited by mnmracer, 27 December 2012 - 15:21.

Simply, Raikkonen doesn't have the ruthlessness and desperation to win multiple WDCs that characterizes his chief competitors. This is a good thing in my eyes, but I can see why certain teams may view this as a downside.

Edited by 2ms, 27 December 2012 - 15:48.

Reminds me of the Sports Review of the Year 1971, when Graham Hill interviewed the champion. "Jackie, you won six times this year, which meant you lost five...what went wrong?"

I appreciate your point though. I seem to see more negatives of ruthlessness and desperation. You more positives.

I see them as negatives too, mate. I said the team management see them as positive and even necessary these days.

Edited by 2ms, 27 December 2012 - 16:07.

Remember Heinz-Harald Frentzen - speedwise on Schumi's level (or above), but, say, a little bit too lazy for the big bang.

Mark Webber is lightning fast on his day and, it seems, on his tracks (Monaco, Silverstone, China, Suzuka), but he can't seem to keep that speed over a season, and at some tracks just seems lost.

Edited by BetaVersion, 27 December 2012 - 16:35.

For some reason, some douche spread this rubbish in F1 circles and even in 92/93 they were already talking about this on the TV broadcasts. Commentators were saying things like : "If Schumacher is this fast, imagine Wendlinger and HHF who are supposed to be faster"

But the thing is where this myth came from because what HHF once said about it was : "All I can say is that Michael wasn't always the fastest among us" and not that Wendlinger and him were faster than MSC.

HHF never showed even near the speed of Schumacher in F1.....

anyway, Frentzen always did well compared to his teammates at Jordan

Edited by BetaVersion, 27 December 2012 - 21:19.

The main reason I can't rate HHF very high is because he was completely dominated by JV and I never rated the canadian that high either, so......

Probably a myth that came from their time together in Sauber Mercedes Sport's Car......

For some reason, some douche spread this rubbish in F1 circles and even in 92/93 they were already talking about this on the TV broadcasts. Commentators were saying things like : "If Schumacher is this fast, imagine Wendlinger and HHF who are supposed to be faster"

But the thing is where this myth came from because what HHF once said about it was : "All I can say is that Michael wasn't always the fastest among us" and not that Wendlinger and him were faster than MSC.

HHF never showed even near the speed of Schumacher in F1.....



are you kidding me? Vettel have settled on pole since the track returned to the calendar

JPM for me, I think he's one of the most naturally fast drivers out there but couldn't deliver over a season. IMO he wasn't cut out for F1, he didn't seem to be able to work with McLaren to set the car up and seemed to lack the mental strength to put a title challenge together in F1.
It's surprising, he won the CART championship in his debut season and the Indy 500 in 2000 when it was an IRL event not CART so he was definitely an outsider but still won. For some reason he couldn't get it together in F1. In NASCAR he hasn't set the world alight but has managed to stay in the series at a high level which is something of an achievement, Barichello for instance has only been able to manage one season in Indy racing before he ran out of options.

Edited by Disgrace, 27 December 2012 - 22:12.

I think BMW engines were more of an issue for JPM than his temperament for instance. I also totally disagree with the poster that claimed his overtaking was his weakness, on the contrary it was one of his strengths. However, I would argue he simply did not suit the era; overtaking was reserved for the pits rather than the circuit. Then he joined McLaren where a culture exists that numerous drivers before and after him have found to be at odds with. The move ultimately killed his passion for F1.

About JPM delivering over a season, look no further than 2003, he would have won at Japan and Austria but for engine failures, the former after the Michelin advantage had been voided. I don't think there's a question of him delivering over a season at all. He was certainly prone to the odd error and hotheadedness but he was let down by his equipment far more.

I was not a Montoya fan in F1 but I loved his CART run. He made everybody there look like amateurs.
I agree on all counts. He was a fantastic overtaker (you can ask MS about that..he's been on the receiving end of some wow passes from JPM), he was fast and he could deliver over a season.

He was not perfect (nobody is), he seemed to lose temper at moments but that's it. F1 lost a great driver with JPM losing his motivation and that's a pity for us, the fans.

A friend of mine in Germany said to me a few months ago, the only two drivers he saw that left him genuinely speechless were Schumacher and Frentzen when they were in F3. Frentzen was highly rated in F3, and obviously it didn't translate over to F1 as many expected.

Kimi bloody fast, I don't buy that he isn't focused when he wants to be etc but either he wants to build that "I don't give a f*** about anything" image or he really doesn't give a f** about anything at times and that has hurt him.

I will never judge a person based on his personality, if he is like that then good for him. He has loads of talent and I think you just have to understand how to have him motivated. In the right environment he can be your best star, in the wrong one he can seem lazy.

The thing is that most of the F1 drivers, on their days, are outstanding. These guys are the best of the very best (except pay drivers), they win other series and compete here. Well, out of these "best of the very best" some seem to be able to have their best days more often than others. I have no doubt that all of them are really, really great

Edited by 2ms, 27 December 2012 - 22:33.

I agree with everything you say. I only might add that it is important to consider that he has not ever been in a complete package car that was dominant like a Red Bull, a R25 or R26, Brawn, Byrne-designed Ferrari, etc. The one season where he had a truly complete car, he did win the WDC.

What about the Ferrari in 2008 in Massa challenged for the win? He had a good package in 2007,2008

It's the same in every other sport. You can be the king in a lower league and can completely fail in the pro leagues. There was an american football player Adu. They praised him and said of him : He will be the next Pele. I never heard of him again. This translation process is very important, you can fail to extract your god given talent or you reached your maximum before you are 25. You can find a lot of examples in sports history. So even if Frentzen was faster than Schumacher from time to time doesn't mean we lost true great. I guess there are a lot of drivers in history who had the same amount of talent as Michael but were never able to develop from a "fast talent" to a killing machine.

The half a season wrong suspension broken record again...will it ever end? It was NOT half a season and that WAS NOT kimi's main problem - he had too many dnf's . The old suspension was put back and Kimi still scored less points than Massa (monza, spa, singapore, brazil) when that happened. It was simply not kImi's year.

Hamilton could've won the championship every year he's driven in except 2009, amazing driver and perfectly capable of winning multiple championships. He is a good chunk faster than anyone on the grid.

Hamilton is very fast but he messes up with the set up so often, and he makes a lot of strategic mistakes lime those two DNF in 2010, and his heroic 2007 ending.

Edited by ViMaMo, 28 December 2012 - 01:08.

Montoya and Hamilton comes to mind. Great natural speed, but lacking championship temperament. (although Hamilton scraped one over Massa)

Hamilton could've won the championship every year he's driven in except 2009, amazing driver and perfectly capable of winning multiple championships. He is a good chunk faster than anyone on the grid.

That is Velocifer's argument though - he has a 20% success rate in landing titles and even that came at the death. However unlike Velocifer I'd suggest that Hamilton was not the major factor behind the other failures.

I didn't say the suspension error was complete explanation for Kimi's woes. Earlier I mentioned lot of bad luck (e.g. probable win turned into dnf being rear-ended in pitlane). Yes, it wasn't Kimi's year. Overwhelmingly for reasons that had nothing to do with him. More like Hamilton this year, as opposed to Hamilton last year.

Anyhow, JPM stands out in the last decade. He was stunningly fast, but his motivation lacked, and in F1 you need to be hungry every single second you breathe the sport.

I don't know how you can say lacked motivation.

Jean-Pierre Jarier, anyone?

anyway, Frentzen always did well compared to his teammates at Jordan

but not when he had the best car in F1 and the guy with the same car that was doing the job for the team

Edited by bub, 28 December 2012 - 15:35.