So hamilton's management never made a counter offer that was rejected or altered by mclaren?
It doesn't matter who made what offer or counter offer, the end result wasn't Mac dumping him, but giving him a take it or leave it offer.
Posted 05 January 2013 - 15:02
So hamilton's management never made a counter offer that was rejected or altered by mclaren?
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Posted 05 January 2013 - 15:10
Hmm, and what would that make Button then?
You equate Lewis to a three time and a two time champion but not previous Mac champions? Looking at the past with rose tinted glasses perhaps?
Posted 05 January 2013 - 15:12
I disagree that Lewis isn't exceptional. He's top three in the sport with Vettel and Alonso.
Edited by garoidb, 05 January 2013 - 15:13.
Posted 05 January 2013 - 15:14
The other former McLaren drivers being mentioned would also have been in the top three of their eras.
Posted 05 January 2013 - 15:17
I'm sorry I don't understand what you are saying?
I am equating Lewis to previous McLaren champions - specifically - all of whom are legends. In fact I might be flattering him slightly. My point is that for McLaren having a driver like Lewis in the team is quite normal and they aren't going to be dazzled by him, and therefore I don't see why the team would feel the need to be anything other than 100% professional in their approach to F1 racing with him. McLaren exist to maximise the results for McLaren, and they have the funds and technical ability to secure the best resources to achieve this. I'll acknowledge that their driver line up for 2013 is... sub optimal... but these things tend to work in cycles.
I don't think Button is in the same league, but thats got nothing to do with the point I'm making, which I suspect you know full well. There is no reason for McLaren to treat Lewis differently to any other top flight driver that they have had, and such commodities come and go.
Edited by senna da silva, 05 January 2013 - 15:18.
Posted 05 January 2013 - 15:17
And they're all exceptional, just like Lewis.
Posted 05 January 2013 - 15:23
I have said this several times since Belgium: Lewis should consider himself lucky he was allowed to finish the season in McLaren, and was not put "on the street" effective immediately after what, no doubts, was a flagrant breach of contract, by twitting the team's telemetry after being beaten by Jenson in Belgium.
If anything, I would have been VERY disappointed that a big and glorious name as McLaren would have put their head down to the tantrums of one of their drivers.
Truth be told, Lewis is a terrific driver, but he is not a team player; and he is also not very effective in his conversion ratio.
And certainly, good luck at Mercedes! Brawn is not going to give him the nurturing and protective environment that Dennis provided. Good luck when twitting the telemetry after Rosberg qualifies better than him!
Posted 05 January 2013 - 18:17
Edited by Boxerevo, 05 January 2013 - 18:28.
Posted 05 January 2013 - 18:36
Thats how Lewis's fans remember that story. I am pretty sure it was not quite like that.But what they did... "Lewis,the two specs are near performance wise,let it be and we will SPLIT AGAIN our specs/strategy,will be the BEST FOR THE TEAM".
Posted 05 January 2013 - 19:05
Hamilton said: "In P3, I had some instability with the new wing that we tried. At the time, we had a relatively big gap between ourselves and the Red Bulls and the Ferrari, so we felt on our side of the garage that we should try something to fix it.
Posted 05 January 2013 - 19:14
The other former McLaren drivers being mentioned would also have been in the top three of their eras.
Posted 05 January 2013 - 19:26
Hmmm. Maybe. The flip side of this is that if Massa had had a stronger start to the season he could have secured podium positions taking points away from Seb when it mattered, which would have secured the title for Alonso. You need both cars scoring points to reduce your rivals haul. Similarly Webber could have made things easier for Seb.
Where has this idea that McLaren ruined Lewis' chances by favouring Button come from? I see it a lot here. Are there hard sources for this, or is it one of those internet forum zombie facts?
Posted 05 January 2013 - 19:27
Even if you are a truly hater of LH,you have to understand my words now and see that Mclaren should know and put Hamilton on the best wing available.
If they really cared about the WDC,they should do like Ferrari and RBR,they help the stronger driver no matter what.
Edited by onewingedangel, 05 January 2013 - 19:27.
Posted 05 January 2013 - 19:31
Running in Free Practice was limited due to the weather, and both drivers were experiencing issues with the new wing in FP3 - where Jenson was over half a second faster than Lewis running the same wings.
Lewis wasn't happy with the car and with the option to run a tested setup that on paper would be largely equivalent over a lap, and with the potential to pay out should the bad weather continue through the weekend, his side of the garage went for the conservative option, wheras Jensons side tried to get the new wing to work, which was a risk - one he could take as he was realistically out of the WDC fight.
Lewis' side of the garage thought the higher downforce wing was the better option all things considered - and it certainly wasn't 8 tenths slower.
Posted 05 January 2013 - 20:11
I don't believe that they did everything they can to ensure he didn't win.
But I do believe they didn't do everything they could to ensure he did win. Lol, hopefully that makes sense to you.
2012 was forgettable for McLaren, a very quick car stymied by cockups and failures.
Edited by bourbon, 05 January 2013 - 20:40.
Posted 05 January 2013 - 20:49
When driver's speak their minds they are the coolest dudes on earth. Whenever someone from a team does it they are classless, lowlifes.I don't think that cock-ups are a reason to leave, unless they are permanent. Macca is generally much better. Drivers are not perfect either. Hamilton is usually much better than his 2011 season also.
I doubt that 2012's failures were a deal breaker for Lewis, just as 2011 wasn't a deal breaker for Macca. After all Macca produced a great car for many races as Lewis did turn in some great performances in 2011, so the big picture is what would be taken into consideration, imo. Perhaps the team and driver wanted to part for many reasons, reasons they have not discussed publicly.
But Ron Dennis should not have said that McLaren could have done more to retain lewis but didn't want to. That is unnecessary and shows a distinct lack of class, imo. The title of this thread does not fit what I am discussing, but I think this is the right thread, so maybe it should be modified.
Edited by Watkins74, 05 January 2013 - 20:49.
Posted 05 January 2013 - 23:38
Really, we are still on conspiracy theories that McLaren are happy to throw away millions of dollars in FOM fees to make Button look good?I think McLaren made sure of two things this season, that Lewis doesn't win the championship and that Jenson finish as close as possible to make him look better. At Spa they played silly buggers with the wings and Lewis was pissed, rightly so.
Posted 05 January 2013 - 23:47
I don't think it shows a lack of class at all, he is just making a statement of the situation.But Ron Dennis should not have said that McLaren could have done more to retain lewis but didn't want to. That is unnecessary and shows a distinct lack of class, imo. The title of this thread does not fit what I am discussing, but I think this is the right thread, so maybe it should be modified.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 00:00
I don't think it shows a lack of class at all, he is just making a statement of the situation.
We have wild speculation in this and previous threads about why Hamilton and McLaren couldn't sign a new contract, and we will never find out the details unless either Hamilton, Whitmarsh or Dennis writes them down in a future autobiography, so in reality we won't really know why they couldn't agree terms.
Dennis has just pointed out the obvious. Hamiltons contract had ended, McLaren made him a new offer. Hamilton came back with what he wanted and even though it seems McLaren improved their offer didn't want to, or couldn't, give him everything he asked for.
If your work contract ended and you asked for double your salary with a lot more time off work, no matter how good you are your boss is not going to want to agree to that either. Would that be your boss showing a lack of class as well?
Edited by bourbon, 06 January 2013 - 00:02.
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Posted 06 January 2013 - 00:05
Highly likely.Is the Mail the worst newspaper in the world??
Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:28
Really, we are still on conspiracy theories that McLaren are happy to throw away millions of dollars in FOM fees to make Button look good?
You're not going to suggest Hulkenberg deliberately threw away his first race win to take Hamilton out in Brazil to give Button another are you.
Or that McLaren deliberately made themselves look like idiots when messing up the pitstops to prevent Hamilton scoring more points than Button.
Or that Hamiltons race engineers knew the new wing was the wing to have at Spa, but deliberately chose to throw away points (and therefore lots of money) by putting the old wing on instead.
At Spa McLaren put a wing that they knew would work fine on race day on Hamiltons car. They gambled on the new wing which they didn't have much testing with on Buttons car. A perfectly sensible way of working for any professional race team, you put what you think is the best wing on your lead driver and take a gamble with your other driver in the hope it works out, if not you get plenty of data on the new parts. McLaren had no way of knowing beforehand which wing would have worked the best, they have said all their data showed there wasn't much difference over a lap, of course the difference couldn't be down to the drivers even though Button had been faster in practice when they were using the same wing. I'm sure if the new wing hadn't worked you wouldn't be at the front of the queue suggesting McLaren had deliberately put the wrong wing on Buttons car.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:14
Posted 06 January 2013 - 08:46
Do you honestly believe this? If so I absolutely despair at the mentality of F1 fans.
Why would McLaren spend $10s millions on car development and pay Lewis further $millions, and then do everything they can to ensure he didn't win?
Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:52
In 2007, it was Ron Dennis not the fans who said McLaren was racing its own driver rather than the competition.
It was also Ron Dennis who in 2012 declared McLaren prioritises race wins over championships.
If the Executive Chairman says irrational things who are the fans to disagree?
Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:04
In 2007 both McLarens were the likely contenders in the title hunt, and there was a split in the team, not helped by Fonzie (allegedly? I can't remember if it was ever confirmed in the press) blackmailing Ron Dennis.
And did either half of the team not try their best to get the results for their driver?
No.
Lewis' side worked hard to get the best results, and so did Alonso's.
So what your example shows me is that at McLaren even when there is a terrible atmosphere like in 2007, all the technicians and race engineers etc. will still be professional and to the very best work they can within their team.
I'm sorry but reading this thread I have still not seen a single shred of evidence to suggest that Hamilton was somehow intentionally hampered or sabotaged by McLaren, to the benefit of Jenson Button. The drivers splitting strategy at 1 GP on a new front wing doesn't really cut it as definitive proof for me.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 12:54
At Spa McLaren put a wing that they knew would work fine on race day on Hamiltons car. They gambled on the new wing which they didn't have much testing with on Buttons car. A perfectly sensible way of working for any professional race team, you put what you think is the best wing on your lead driver and take a gamble with your other driver in the hope it works out, if not you get plenty of data on the new parts. McLaren had no way of knowing beforehand which wing would have worked the best, they have said all their data showed there wasn't much difference over a lap, of course the difference couldn't be down to the drivers even though Button had been faster in practice when they were using the same wing. I'm sure if the new wing hadn't worked you wouldn't be at the front of the queue suggesting McLaren had deliberately put the wrong wing on Buttons car.
Edited by race addicted, 06 January 2013 - 12:56.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 13:08
That McLaren were in doubt when things looked so clear-cut with Button, shows a bit of ineptness IMHO.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 13:48
Posted 06 January 2013 - 14:14
Posted 06 January 2013 - 14:34
Posted 06 January 2013 - 14:38
So basically for Hamilton fans it all boils down to - Mclaren screwed Lewis by trying to provide 'equality' for Button, and Spa is the proof.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 14:49
So basically for Hamilton fans it all boils down to - Mclaren screwed Lewis by trying to provide 'equality' for Button, and Spa is the proof.
The perception I get from these threads is that Lewis isn't enough of a grown up to handle F1 and needs everything on a plate for him.
As a Schumi fan I can well see why so many people who were neutral or ambivalent towards him got so frustrated, as such a one eyed view of the sport is impossible to debate with.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 15:04
It never ceases to amaze me how many people quote Dennis' words under the apparent misapprehension that "racing" is a synonym for "sabotaging". Although most of those people don't then go on to suggest that Dennis thinks that one can't race both one's team-mate and the drivers of the other teams at the same time.In 2007, it was Ron Dennis not the fans who said McLaren was racing its own driver rather than the competition.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 15:34
Hamilton has a huge amount of fans. What you've seen is an extremely small minority claim what you say above. It's kind of offensive to accuse all Hamilton fans of having this view.
You probably shouldn't let the opinions of random people on the internet affect your perception of anyone other than the people giving those opinions.
Edited by spacekid, 06 January 2013 - 15:36.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 15:37
It never ceases to amaze me how many people quote Dennis' words under the apparent misapprehension that "racing" is a synonym for "sabotaging". Although most of those people don't then go on to suggest that Dennis thinks that one can't race both one's team-mate and the drivers of the other teams at the same time.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 15:46
I'm not arguing about Hamilton's feedback value or his ability to get his demands across, I'm airing my thoughts around McLaren's operational and engineering team, which I think fell short once again during the Spa weekend. Telling a driver there isn't much in it, when it turns out it was approaching a full second on the straights alone, is unheard of.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 15:57
It never ceases to amaze me how many people quote Dennis' words under the apparent misapprehension that "racing" is a synonym for "sabotaging". Although most of those people don't then go on to suggest that Dennis thinks that one can't race both one's team-mate and the drivers of the other teams at the same time.
Edited by halifaxf1fan, 06 January 2013 - 23:50.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 15:59
Please don't selectively quote me. If you had quoted my entire post I clearly said I do not believe this to be the case.
I've read the threads over the years, and frankly avoided them as reasonable debate on anything Hamilton related seems very difficult. I would have thought it is also quite offensive to suggest that McLaren is an operation that would cheerfully spunk away $millions just to make Lewis look bad. I'm still waiting for any kind of evidence at all for this except for being told that if I had watched the races (I did) I would have seen all the proof I needed.
I agree that the views put forward are not those of all Hamilton fans. This is why I said as a schumi fan I understood how frustrating it was for some people to try to put debate a reasonable view.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 16:00
You can't blame Dennis for giving Lewis the emotional support after the events earlier in the season. It didn't stop Fernando and his side of garage coming very close to winning the championship. A team principle hoping one driver beats the other is very different to sabotage. Surely you don't need that explained to you.Except in this case Dennis specifically said he wasn't racing Raikkonen, so he wasn't targeting strategy for Hamilton against 'the other teams' but against Alonso.
Quote: Denns said "We weren't racing Kimi, we were basically racing Fernando."
Kimi wasn't the guy Dennis was wanting Hamilton to beat that day, it was Alonso.
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Posted 06 January 2013 - 16:07
You can't blame Dennis for giving Lewis the emotional support after the events earlier in the season. It didn't stop Fernando and his side of garage coming very close to winning the championship. A team principle hoping one driver beats the other is very different to sabotage. Surely you don't need that explained to you.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 16:13
Lewis was ahead in the championship standings and had also qualified on pole, with Alonso in 4th that race. McLaren and other teams including Red Bull offer the better strategy to the driver who is ahead at that time. With only two rounds left of course they were going to root for Lewis. Jenson got the preferred strategies when he was ahead of Lewis for example China 2010. Its the way they have always worked. The fact they (Alonso/Hamilton) were allowed to race each other to the end of the season proves this. Alonso had his fair share of optimal strategies that season too, when he was ahead. You can't give both drivers the same strategy because its clashes. Its really not that hard to understand and the Dennis quote is justified every time its brought up.tifosi, employing different or optimal strategies for one team member over another is not 'emotional support' it is very tangible. And neither is it 'sabotage' as you are trying to describe it. It is the team providing a preferred strategy to its preferred driver.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 16:27
Lewis was ahead in the championship standings and had also qualified on pole, with Alonso in 4th that race. McLaren and other teams including Red Bull offer the better strategy to the driver who is ahead at that time. With only two rounds left of course they were going to root for Lewis. Jenson got the preferred strategies when he was ahead of Lewis for example China 2010. Its the way they have always worked. The fact they (Alonso/Hamilton) were allowed to race each other to the end of the season proves this. Alonso had his fair share of optimal strategies that season too, when he was ahead. You can't give both drivers the same strategy because its clashes. Its really not that hard to understand and the Dennis quote is justified every time its brought up.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 16:33
Alonso created the bad situation and it can't be overlooked that Lewis was doing a lot of the hard work on track that day until he went off. Hamilton was deserving of his championship position and even if he had have done it that day, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who thought he didn't deserve it. One of the drivers had to win it and I think I would go with the one who hadn't threatened the team, like most.It is very simple - for Hamilton to win the championship that day in China he needed to finish ahead of Alonso. Dennis clearly was going to do anything he could to make that happen. And I have no issues with Dennis's quote nor his intent that day - helping Hamilton even if it was at Alonso's expense was the right thing to do imo to get Hamilton the title. It would have been glorious for Dennis & the McLaren team, a miracle season.
Dennis's quote just told it as it was, Hamilton was the golden child and Alonso was in the way.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 16:48
It is very simple - for Hamilton to win the championship that day in China he needed to finish ahead of Alonso. Dennis clearly was going to do anything he could to make that happen. And I have no issues with Dennis's quote nor his intent that day - helping Hamilton even if it was at Alonso's expense was the right thing to do imo to get Hamilton the title. It would have been glorious for Dennis & the McLaren team, a miracle season.
Dennis's quote just told it as it was, Hamilton was the golden child and Alonso was in the way.
Edited by Risil, 06 January 2013 - 16:49.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 17:01
I don't see any bitterness in what RD is saying. It's pretty straightforward. I was in a similar employment situation recently. They weren't willing to give me what I was asking for, which wasn't just about finances and I wasn't willing to accept what they offered, so we parted ways. There was no animosity, I thanked them, they thanked me and that was it.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 17:14
I would have expected the drivers to follow the telemetry and understand what is happening with the cars, and be able to form their own opinions (with their race engineers). Do you think McLaren deliberately mislead Lewis?
Please bear in mind I'm talking to the thread topic, and what was put to me by other posters that McLaren deliberately did not want Lewis performing to the best of his abilities.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 17:45
I'm sure if we all took replies to questions out of context, then shorten the full sentence to only keep the bit we want and then hang on to this fallacy for the next five years we should be able to confirm our conspiracy theories based on anything Ron Dennis has said.In 2007, it was Ron Dennis not the fans who said McLaren was racing its own driver rather than the competition.
It was also Ron Dennis who in 2012 declared McLaren prioritises race wins over championships.
If the Executive Chairman says irrational things who are the fans to disagree?
Posted 06 January 2013 - 19:46
No, I don't think he was deliberately mislead. They obviously didn't have a clue about what their new wing was good for vs the old one.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 19:50
I misunderstood. I now get what you were saying. My post above can go out to people who actually are guilty of lumping fans into the same group and using fans etc as a reason to dislike an individual.
Posted 06 January 2013 - 20:27
Edited by garoidb, 06 January 2013 - 20:32.