The difference is that Enzo Ferrari is dead.
He was an unsufferable bore, and his ego was in his cars. Montezemolo is a coldish businessman and he just wants to win.
(cough) Prost was fired in '91, Enzo died in '88 (cough)
Posted 06 January 2013 - 21:08
The difference is that Enzo Ferrari is dead.
He was an unsufferable bore, and his ego was in his cars. Montezemolo is a coldish businessman and he just wants to win.
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Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:26
(cough) Prost was fired in '91, Enzo died in '88 (cough)
Posted 07 January 2013 - 06:27
Raikkonen won the only Ferrari championship since 2004, because he had the lady luck at Brazil 2007, which Massa didn't have one year later, or Alonso had at Abu Dhabi 2010 or Brazil 2012.
Do you really think that Raikkonen won a Ferrari championship while Alonso (or Massa) didn't because he performed better?
Likewise, I also believe that the F2008 had the potential to be dominant in the hands of a proper top driver.
Posted 07 January 2013 - 15:44
- Ferrari won the 2007 WCC because of the spy-gate.
Posted 07 January 2013 - 16:26
Not going to enter the topic because it´s full of the old rubbish from both sides, but this is not true, and it´s repeated to death: Ferrari would have won 2007 even without McLaren being DSQ.
Posted 08 January 2013 - 06:36
So in 1991 Prost was dropped from Ferrari for complaining etc about the car. We all know that Alonso continuously says the car isn't good enough, but Ferrari are agreeing with him, rather than dropping him or shutting him up. What are everyone's thoughts? Why did they do it once but not again?
note I am not against Alonso in anyway, I'm just curious as I remember reading about Prost way back when and it seems like a similar situation.
Posted 08 January 2013 - 19:05
Posted 09 January 2013 - 04:29
Raikkonen won the only Ferrari championship since 2004, because he had the lady luck at Brazil 2007, which Massa didn't have one year later, or Alonso had at Abu Dhabi 2010 or Brazil 2012.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 04:59
No one can reasonably say that. Massa was a consistent pole position and race-winning threat in 2007 and 2008. At no point in 2012 was he any of these things, even in his better form later on. Ferrari was still clearly behind Red Bull and Mclaren and was often mixing it up with a few other teams as well. Alonso's WDC chances came from supreme consistency, relentless attack in the races on Sunday and some early season struggles for other teams.Both years he had the car to win the WDC
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Posted 09 January 2013 - 05:38
The truth is that the last time Ferrari produced a pole-grabbing, race-dominating car over a weelemd was in 2008. Its something thats a bit of a concern for us Ferrari fans, since Mclaren and Red Bull have both accomplished this a fair amount over the last few years. 2010 and 2012 were good years, but nothing to brag about from a car perspective. We really have to give a ton of credit to Alonso for putting it in a championship-cabable situation.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 05:50
We really have to give a ton of credit to Alonso for putting it in a championship-cabable situation.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:24
Edited by BackOnTop, 09 January 2013 - 07:32.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:42
Edited by LiJu914, 09 January 2013 - 07:43.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 07:47
Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:25
Massa vs Kimi vs blah blah blah blah! Give it a break. Kimi gave Massa an equal thrashing as Alonso in 2012 driving a Lotus. So get a grip about 2008. Raikkonen is a brilliant Ferrari World Champion, nuff said.Laughable to think that people actually believe the reason to why Raikkonen's accomplished more than Alonso in the 3 years he's been at Ferrari, is because he's a better driver. Nope, the 2007 and 2008 Ferrari's were way out of the league of any of Alonso's cars.
Maybe if Raikkonen had beaten Felipe Massa, then he could've stayed at Ferrari for 2010. You know, that would've been a good start. Unfortunately for the team at Maranello, the guy their hired to replace Schumacher was no better, if not slower than Massa. Nuff' said.
They (Ferrari) needed the best possible line-up ahead of 2010, and sacked the slowest driver out of the three. Simple as that.
Regarding Vettel to Red Bull. According to Horner, he has a contract until 2015 there, so probably not. 2016 at the earliest.
Edited by BackOnTop, 09 January 2013 - 08:40.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:43
Lol, sour grapes. This topic is about Ferrari, and Kimi doesn't need to prove anything. He is happy, his fans are happier. Thanks.I guess ifs & buts become suddenly more relevant again, when it´sabout the question, why Kimi was beaten by Massa in 2008, why he was less succesful in 2009 than any of Alonso´s seasons at Ferrari.
Furthermore....to use the same bizarre logic...i guess Kimi has to deliver quite soon now, if he don´t wants to turn out to be a total dissapointment for the team, with which Alonso won 2 WDCs.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:47
Lol, sour grapes. This topic is about Ferrari, and Kimi doesn't need to prove anything. He is happy, his fans are happier. Thanks.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:53
Lol, sour grapes. This topic is about Ferrari, and Kimi doesn't need to prove anything. He is happy, his fans are happier. Thanks.
Edited by LiJu914, 09 January 2013 - 08:57.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:03
If Kimi does not need to prove anything, why does Fernando need to prove anything? As LiJu914 has observed, there is some symmetry to their positions.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:12
U for real?
Perhaps because he is driving for them?
Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:28
Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:57
Their situations arent even remotely similar,Lotus is a privateer team now with relatively low expectations compared to Ferrari.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:09
You do realize Kimi Raikkonen has performed better, finishing 3rd in the Championship, then what Alonso did in 2 years that he was with Lotus/Renault after he was chucked out by Mclaren for getting beat by a rookie.It quite easy: If someone wants to pretend that Ferrari is as competitive as they were before the major rule changes - then the same goes for "the Enstone team".
Edited by BackOnTop, 09 January 2013 - 10:12.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 10:14
You do realize Kimi Raikkonen has performed better, finishing 3rd in the Championship, then what Alonso did in 2 years that he was with Lotus/Renault
Edited by LiJu914, 09 January 2013 - 10:18.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:46
Spygate +point deductions Hungary then.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:53
Edited by Skinnyguy, 09 January 2013 - 11:55.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:53
The main problem with Alonso @ Ferrari is that he has has taken the "Team" out of Ferrari & made it an "I, Me, Myself" Irene!
Alonso + Santander forget that Ferrari have 650 employees as well who are working as hard as him. With all the stupid strategies the management play to give Alonso the edge (Germany & Austin)... It only creates a silent rift in the other side of the garage.
Not to forget, these 650 Approx Employees haven't received a Winning Bonus that would help their family financially since Kimi Raikkonen left having provided 3 Championships for the very proud Italian outfit to savour.
If's & But's are not helping anyone at Ferrari, except Alonso, who gets a massive Pay.
Some people here claiming that "everyone" at Ferrari was not happy with Kimi & undermining his achievements as a Ferrari driver as a "excuse" for Alonso's lack of achievements is very sad indeed.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 11:57
Hmm, this smells suspiciously like an outbreak of common sense.Different era, different drivers, different comments, different management.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 14:15
No, spygate is irrelevant. It´s the diffference to McLaren being 2nd and last, but it doesn´t affect Ferrari´s result in any form.
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Posted 09 January 2013 - 14:19
I think you need to go out for fresh air.Alonso won the WDC two times with Renault - so no...i don´t "realize" your own fantasy.
But as you - for obvious reasons - only want to take a look at ALO´s least successful seasons at Renault:
Do you realize that Alonso performed better @Ferrari than Kimi did there after the major rules changes in 2009 and even in 2008?
You can´t run away from your own hypocrisy, so stop trying it.
Edited by BackOnTop, 09 January 2013 - 14:44.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 14:43
No one can reasonably say that. Massa was a consistent pole position and race-winning threat in 2007 and 2008. At no point in 2012 was he any of these things, even in his better form later on. Ferrari was still clearly behind Red Bull and Mclaren and was often mixing it up with a few other teams as well. Alonso's WDC chances came from supreme consistency, relentless attack in the races on Sunday and some early season struggles for other teams
Posted 09 January 2013 - 14:48
Posted 09 January 2013 - 14:58
I think you need to go out for fresh air.
Kimi has been with the team for 1 Year... And you desperately want him to do in this solitary year what Alonso did in 8 years with the team. You call that practical analysis.
Ferrari hired Alonso to win Championships; Lotus hired Kimi to finish 5-8 in the Championship. I am hoping you are smart enough to understand the difference about which team got more than they bargained for.
You have lost logic & Way off topic to be discussing Lotus here. You are hurt that Alonso managed to lose out to a kid for 3 years running and hasn't done what Kimi achieved during his time with Ferrari. I have pity for that. Thrashing Kimi isn't going to make Alonso Ferrari's world champion. That crown belongs to Kimi for now. So chill out.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 14:59
Does that lessen Alonso's right to be critical? No. I believe that Alonso should be allowed to be critical without reprecussion. However, it is Ferrari and they don't take well to that. Obviously Alonso has not crossed whatever line there is in that regard though, as he is still driving for them and they have only praise for him.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 15:00
Posted 09 January 2013 - 15:11
Posted 09 January 2013 - 15:16
You cannot compare Prost saying Ferrari is a truck to Alonso saying Ferrari needs to improve. Prost insulted the team and he later apologized.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 15:40
You are hurt that Alonso managed to lose out to a kid for 3 years running
Edited by LiJu914, 09 January 2013 - 16:23.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 16:11
I have read most articles and quotes of the 6 WC's on the grid in 2012... and have failed to see anything 'critical' that Alonso might have said as the topic has dramatized.You cannot compare Prost saying Ferrari is a truck to Alonso saying Ferrari needs to improve. Prost insulted the team and he later apologized.
Even Vettel would get fired by Ferrari for using the same words Prost did. Alonso never said that and what he said was not different of what the experts, and Ferrari themselves said.
Posted 09 January 2013 - 23:04
He's saying that McLaren would have been ahead (218 points) of Ferrari (204 points) if you don't count the Hungary WCC points subtraction and the spy gate entire WCC points elimination. Add up the driver points and see.
Edited by Skinnyguy, 09 January 2013 - 23:08.
Posted 10 January 2013 - 00:18
This.The reason is that Ferrari changed its approach.
Posted 10 January 2013 - 03:08
It would be a singular driver that walked away from a winning Ferrari to join another team.That is an interesting fact. When is the last time that a driver left Ferrari in glory?
Edited by oetzi, 10 January 2013 - 03:09.
Posted 10 January 2013 - 05:17
Massa did well at the end. Nobody is denying that. But he won no races. He got no pole positions. He was merely upping his game. The Ferrari did not turn into some WDC contender. If anything, they lost competitiveness at the end there as Red Bull and Mclaren stepped things back up. And Alonso still had 7 podiums in the last 8 races. Thats not failing to deliver. Just sayin - if you're going to use Massa as a benchmark, realize that Alonso did for 3 season long what Massa could only do on rare occasions over the same period.Unless you have telemetry that proves differently, you can reasonably say Alonso had the car to win the WDC in 2010 and 2012. I don't understand how you can reasonably say otherwise when Alonso missed out by 4 points in 2010 and 3 points in 2011.
Massa demonstrated the Ferrari had the necessary speed down the stretch in 2012, Alonso just failed to deliver.
Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:26
Massa did well at the end. Nobody is denying that. But he won no races. He got no pole positions. He was merely upping his game. The Ferrari did not turn into some WDC contender. If anything, they lost competitiveness at the end there as Red Bull and Mclaren stepped things back up. And Alonso still had 7 podiums in the last 8 races. Thats not failing to deliver. Just sayin - if you're going to use Massa as a benchmark, realize that Alonso did for 3 season long what Massa could only do on rare occasions over the same period.
They aren't going to drop him, not because he comes with money, but because he's the best driver available
Posted 10 January 2013 - 06:53
Posted 10 January 2013 - 07:58
I'm saying the Ferrari was a good enough car in both 2010 and 2012 to win the WDC for Alonso. In 2012 Massa proved that down the stretch. Unfortunately for Alonso, under the pressure of a WDC he failed to perform at even Massa's level.
Agreed. SV is at RBR, JB is at McLaren, KR isn't an option, and they've said they prefer SV to Hamilton. Ferrari would have to gamble on an unproven driver, so I'm not surprised they decided to stick with FA.
Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:38
Why Ferrari fired Alain Prost...
NOVEMBER 1, 1991
BY JOE SAWARD
Claudio Lombardi is team director of Ferrari and, in theory at least, the man who makes decisions in the Ferrari racing team. We asked him why Alain Prost was not racing in Adelaide. This is what he had to say:
Why is Alain Prost not racing?
"Ferrari took this decision to stop with Alain Prost both for the last Grand Prix and for next season. The relationship between a top driver and a top team involves the performance of the driver and then the behaviour of the driver. For the first point we are very happy with the performance of Alain Prost. I personally worked with Alain for the last four months and I think he is really a very good driver and a fantastic test driver. The second point is behaviour. The behaviour of Alain Prost during this season has not been at the level that Ferrari would like from a top driver. His behaviour inside and outside the team meant that Ferrari had to stop the relationship."
Could you give an example of the behaviour which upset Ferrari?
"There are now legal problems between Ferrari and Alain Prost so I cannot really give you examples of such behaviour. Probably you know what I mean."
Why did the split occur before Adelaide and not after the season had ended?
"In the last week the behaviour of Alain Prost was really worse and worse and Ferrari took this decision."
. Where did we lose those three points? Hard to say, but I just want to point out that Fernando ended where he did, having effectively only taken part in 18 of the 20 races: the few hundred metres he covered in Spa and then Suzuka lays heavy like a rock on today's outcome.”Domenicali
“He has been extraordinary, not just in the way he has driven, nor because he simply never gave up in the first very difficult part of the season, but mainly for the human qualities he demonstrated within the team
Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:44
I have friends in Italy, and they say there are a lot of people unhappy with Alonso, and that Italian papers started really rating Vettel lately. There's a general opinion that Alonso should talk less. Leo Turrini wrote the other day that he has an impression that something has cracked in the relationship between Alonso and Scuderia.
Posted 10 January 2013 - 12:07
I would not pay too much attention to what Leo Turrini says - particularly when he is happy to acknowledge that his target audience is a group of "Schumacher orphans and Raikkonen widows". His words, not mine - http://club.quotidia...ne_in_nero.html "Raikkoniani amici miei, vedove raikkoniane mie sorelle".I have friends in Italy, and they say there are a lot of people unhappy with Alonso, and that Italian papers started really rating Vettel lately. There's a general opinion that Alonso should talk less. Leo Turrini wrote the other day that he has an impression that something has cracked in the relationship between Alonso and Scuderia.
Edited by Fontainebleau, 10 January 2013 - 12:23.
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Posted 10 January 2013 - 13:38
The truth is that the last time Ferrari produced a pole-grabbing, race-dominating car over a weelemd was in 2008. Its something thats a bit of a concern for us Ferrari fans, since Mclaren and Red Bull have both accomplished this a fair amount over the last few years. 2010 and 2012 were good years, but nothing to brag about from a car perspective. We really have to give a ton of credit to Alonso for putting it in a championship-cabable situation.