Marussia MR02

So I thought one Marussia car to be fair a average to good race, had Bianchi not had a race compromise on the first lap melee they would have been fighting VDG. On the other hand, I still stand by my word on Max Chilton, who I feel after 5 races is still directionless and genuinely a wasted seat... I pluck this from their website summary of Barcelona:

"Max got a poor start and later in the race this was compounded by a problem during one of his three pit stops. He too drove a hard race to try to recover from his two setbacks and for much of the race his lap times were equal to those of his team-mate."

Max got caught by Jules who had a compromised race and I think excuses are excuses, I only wish the reliance wasn't so heavy on Chilton's funding, because he's looking to pan out (as I predict) like a under-quality racer. Still, he's grinning from ear to ear looking really smug with himself and his performance level, so as long as he's happy plodding along like Noddy thinking he's doing a good job, I'm happy to point out and laugh at really how below par he is. Still, I point to wondering what gain would have been made had Glock been in that seat, it's hurting Marussia like Caterham-they're relying on Kovalainen to wring out their performance package, Pic isn't up to scratch and VDG is even worse off. I really believe out of the new teams all rookies bar Bianchi are worthless. Bianchi I think looks like a saving grace, but I still would have put him a way behind Glock in terms out outright quality.

I couldn't see any visible updates although I'm told there were many including a new floor front wing, front suspension etc, not really seeing them on f1technical's website either, did anyone see what exactly these were? Because based on Caterhams drum beating, I was thinking Marussia were well and truly going to be left for dust, although I'm happy this isn't the case. Caterhams new nose is quite the redesign, which I find amazing for a small team 5 races in, if they can't get higher than 14th, it's going to hurt them greatly, I see Monaco, Singapore and Brazil as make or break, I don't see 14th the highest either team could do this year.....

Edited by lambylamby, 13 May 2013 - 12:33.

I think you're being overly harsh. Chilton was well off-the-pace in the early races, but has improved significantly in the last two. He no longer looks out-of-his-depth, and although he is a pay driver, he's at least a competent one who is getting closer to Bianchi. Pic (who was usually a match for Glock last year and outperformed him on several occasions) has been understated in qualifying but strong in the races - he was only a second or so behind Bottas today - and Van der Garde also looked to be making good use of the upgraded Caterham after previously struggling with tyre management, only for the team's operational mistake to let him down. They may not be as good as the team's collective line-up in 2012, but they are by no means incompetent. Pic in particular I could see having a decent career in the sport.

I think you're being overly harsh. Chilton was well off-the-pace in the early races, but has improved significantly in the last two. He no longer looks out-of-his-depth, and although he is a pay driver, he's at least a competent one who is getting closer to Bianchi. Pic (who was usually a match for Glock last year and outperformed him on several occasions) has been understated in qualifying but strong in the races - he was only a second or so behind Bottas today - and Van der Garde also looked to be making good use of the upgraded Caterham after previously struggling with tyre management, only for the team's operational mistake to let him down. They may not be as good as the team's collective line-up in 2012, but they are by no means incompetent. Pic in particular I could see having a decent career in the sport.

I find every time he does a driver interview with the press, he has an excuse for basically piss-poor performance. I'm overly unimpressed with his pace, and place him lower than Di Grassi, D'Ambrosio & Pic in terms of Marussia's drivers. I find the only worse drivers in the last 4 years to be Cucumber, Yamamoto and maybe Chandhok, I really would even consider him worse than VDG. I'm sorry if you think it's harsh, but that's where I rate him.

I am however impressed that these teams are getting very very close now to the 2-3 sec lap slower, albeit a year later than I thought, so that's a little relief.

A bit frustrating race to watch. Bianchi pitted on lap 2 to change the front wing and Chilton was on a very bad strategy. He was in front of Pic before the first stops, but the first stint was way too long. Cars that had pitted started overtaking him and he lost a lot of time in all that. Even Pic, who had already pitted, passed him before Max came to pits. On about lap 20 both drivers were already out of any serious contention of fighting with the Caterhams. Must do better.

The pace was ok, but not stunning.

I think Bianchi was badly compromised by having to make an extra stop to change the front wing. I'm not sure how far he finished behind Pic but the extra stop would have cost him 20s and he was using scrubbed tyres in the final stint.
As for Chilton he was 30s down on Bianchi who made an extra stop. Under normal circumstances that would be nearer to a minute. That means that Chilton is almost 1s a lap slower than Bianchi in race conditions. Bianchi's quick but he's not Hamilton or Vettel quick. The problem is Chilton lacks the speed for F1. No amount of experience is going to find him basic speed.

Not as relevant nowadays, but Max Chilton was the fastest car on track on lap 32!

http://www.f1fanatic...s-fastest-laps/

http://www.thetimes....icle3768176.ece

He's earned his place..... funny.....

Time to get rid of rich daddy's boy. He's shocking and it's time to bring in quality, not that rubbish.

Time to get rid of rich daddy's boy. He's shocking and it's time to bring in quality, not that rubbish.

Time to get rid of rich daddy's boy. He's shocking and it's time to bring in quality, not that rubbish.

Not a chance. Time to face reality, Marussia cant survive without pay drivers, especially now that Bernie has decided to leave them without FOM money. Unless there is a better driver with a lot of cash Max wont be going anywhere.

After a dismal qualifying, the race was a bit better. Pace was good. Dont know what happened to Bianchi, but his race was already sort of over because he got lapped in the red flag confusion. Max made a mistake with Maldonado, but corrected it by passing van der Garde a couple of laps before the finish. So they are still P10 in the WCC.

Not a chance. Time to face reality, Marussia cant survive without pay drivers, especially now that Bernie has decided to leave them without FOM money. Unless there is a better driver with a lot of cash Max wont be going anywhere.

After a dismal qualifying, the race was a bit better. Pace was good. Dont know what happened to Bianchi, but his race was already sort of over because he got lapped in the red flag confusion. Max made a mistake with Maldonado, but corrected it by passing van der Garde a couple of laps before the finish. So they are still P10 in the WCC.

Yes I do agree with you. Without Chilton and his money, Marussia would not be racing and that's not what any of us want. And his race was a lot better today. Sure it may only be fourteenth, but that's practically a podium to a backmarker team, so good on him for passing van der Garde who had such a strong qualifying. His incident with Maldonado should be placed squarely on his shoulders, but it was a momentary lack of awareness that caused the collision, not a dangerous bash that the other GP2 drivers employ. Had it not caused a crash and the red flag, he probably would of got away with it.

Yes I do agree with you. Without Chilton and his money, Marussia would not be racing and that's not what any of us want. And his race was a lot better today. Sure it may only be fourteenth, but that's practically a podium to a backmarker team, so good on him for passing van der Garde who had such a strong qualifying. His incident with Maldonado should be placed squarely on his shoulders, but it was a momentary lack of awareness that caused the collision, not a dangerous bash that the other GP2 drivers employ. Had it not caused a crash and the red flag, he probably would of got away with it.

Lest we not forget he managed to get his own team mate caught up in that too, who was in fact catching him up. I give no pat in the back for his positioning, Bianchi could have achieved that on his own drive, to catch a competitor and your own team mate in an unaware incident like he did would be driving without due care and attention, so unfortunately i'm yet to see a good race from him...

I however agree yes he's a necessary evil due to his fathers 'money', which is a loss for the sport.

Edited by lambylamby, 26 May 2013 - 19:46.

Lest we not forget he managed to get his own team mate caught up in that too, who was in fact catching him up. I give no pat in the back for his positioning, Bianchi could have achieved that on his own drive, to catch a competitor and your own team mate in an unaware incident like he did would be driving without due care and attention, so unfortunately i'm yet to see a good race from him...

I however agree yes he's a necessary evil due to his fathers 'money', which is a loss for the sport.

I don't think it's fair to completely blame Chilton for Bianchi damaging his wing. It's still a bit unclear as we never had any onboard cameras, but as I gather it was something of a freak accident with the tecpro barrier shooting straight into Bianchi's car. Chilton didn't smash into his teammate.

He's still not awful. Chilton's not spectacularly fast, nor has he ever done anything special in junior formulas, but he's a solid finisher and has a clean reputation compared to many rookies. Certainly better than some of the drivers HRT gave us.

I would prefer Karthikyean over Chilton any day. Just for pure excitement.

I don't think there's any doubt about Chilton finishing out the season. What's debatable is whether he will be retained next year. If as reported Marussia will be running be running Ferrari engines suggests Bianchi will be retained. In GP2 Felipe Nasr has plenty of funding and is not short of talent and will be looking for a seat next year. I would sign him in a New York minute!

I don't think there's any doubt about Chilton finishing out the season. What's debatable is whether he will be retained next year. If as reported Marussia will be running be running Ferrari engines suggests Bianchi will be retained. In GP2 Felipe Nasr has plenty of funding and is not short of talent and will be looking for a seat next year. I would sign him in a New York minute!

That would be a very exciting lineup in Bianchi and Nasr. I'm not trying to stick the boot into Chilton or anything, as I actually think he's acquitted himself quite well and is driving okay for someone of his credentials, but he's been easily shaded by Bianchi and is clearly in the seat for primarily financial reasons.

But let's see how he does over the season... he took a little while to find his feet in GP2 as well, and became a frontrunner in that series.

reminds me of Ferrari F2001

Yes I do agree with you. Without Chilton and his money, Marussia would not be racing and that's not what any of us want. And his race was a lot better today. Sure it may only be fourteenth, but that's practically a podium to a backmarker team, so good on him for passing van der Garde who had such a strong qualifying. His incident with Maldonado should be placed squarely on his shoulders, but it was a momentary lack of awareness that caused the collision, not a dangerous bash that the other GP2 drivers employ. Had it not caused a crash and the red flag, he probably would of got away with it.

If Chilton had nailed van der Garde with his new tyres quickly, he may well have been among the group of Raikkonen/Hulkenberg/Bottas/Gutierrez for the mad dash for the last point... although of course I doubt highly whether he would've capitalised on the rest tripping over themselves. As it was he only got him in the last 2 or 3 laps when VDG's tyres really went off. His race wasn't a total disaster although he was a bit careless with Maldonado

Marussia got the measure of Caterham this race (Canada), which is good. Based on Quali I thought Pic had a good lap in, but it looks like race strategy (and pace?!) Marussia were ahead.

Thoughts from others?

Edited by lambylamby, 10 June 2013 - 12:14.

Sort of ok race. They were on the right strategy. MR02 has had problems with tyre wear but that was not an issue here. Beat Caterham, which is the most important thing. They would need to find about 0,5 secs to be able to hang on to the back of the midfield. Have to wait and see what upgrades they have for Silverstone.

Comfortably outpaced Caterham. Illustrates the folly of Caterham to bring a hybrid car to the first 4 flyaways. I think tenth spot may boil down to a chaotic race.
0.5s to get onto to the back of the midfield is doable but will require a major upgrade, either Fric suspension or optimised coanda exhausts or both.

Edited by Petroltorque, 12 June 2013 - 16:32.

If as reported Marussia will be running be running Ferrari engines suggests Bianchi will be retained.

If Bianchi moves to another team (Force India, Sauber, Ferrari itself) then maybe Raffaello Marciello could be placed there. He still will only be 19 next year but he is dominating the FIA European F3 championship and is managed by Ferrari. It's more likely that Marciello will do 2 years of GP2 first though but you never know.

If Bianchi moves to another team (Force India, Sauber, Ferrari itself) then maybe Raffaello Marciello could be placed there. He still will only be 19 next year but he is dominating the FIA European F3 championship and is managed by Ferrari. It's more likely that Marciello will do 2 years of GP2 first though but you never know.

Good question. Actually I think making the jump from F3 might be a bigger jump than before, but I think it might be a good thing for him. Even if it is a tough year, Red Bull would have rather had Ricciardo tool around at the back than another season of just junior formula before moving him up to STR. On top of that, GP2 might have a history of turning out F1 drivers, but there are many good drivers from the levels below who struggle and fail to move forward from their time in GP2.

Bit OT, but does anyone here know if there is any Marussia kit with the Cosworth logo on it. Can't find any at their online store.

It's not unlikely that this year might be the last ever Cosworth engine in F1, and I'd like to have something commemorating that.

@Marussia_F1Team: 08.00hrs UK | We are delighted to announce a long-term powertrain partnership with Scuderia Ferrari @InsideFerrari with effect from 2014

So i guess Bianchi stays, then?

Pat Symonds leaving.
Wonder where he's off to now.

Pat Symonds leaving.
Wonder where he's off to now.

Mercedes, probably. They still need a midfielder for their TD allstars football team.

I'd like to see pat at Sauber especially now they have lost Matt Morris

Just breaking on twitter that he's gone to Williams

Just breaking on twitter that he's gone to Williams

Bad news for Marussia, good news for Williams.

On the subject of replacement technical directors; there are plenty out there. Of those immediately available Frank Dernie and Mike Coughlan come to mind. It's not inconceivable that they could poach you someone like Al do costa or Geoff Willis. One thing in Marussia's favour is that Symonds oversaw the restructuring of the technical side so they should still be well organised.
On the driver front, a Chilton has got to go. He's too slow for present day F1. It's not as though he brings so much money to compensate for finishing outside the top 10 and no driver gets quicker with experience. Basic speed is either there or it's not.

On the subject of replacement technical directors; there are plenty out there. Of those immediately available Frank Dernie and Mike Coughlan come to mind. It's not inconceivable that they could poach you someone like Al do costa or Geoff Willis. One thing in Marussia's favour is that Symonds oversaw the restructuring of the technical side so they should still be well organised.
On the driver front, a Chilton has got to go. He's too slow for present day F1. It's not as though he brings so much money to compensate for finishing outside the top 10 and no driver gets quicker with experience. Basic speed is either there or it's not.

Slow, you can say that again! I'm only going to repeat what i've already said, but Bianchi is blasting the guy each GP, I would think a one eyed whelk pushing a wheelbarrow up the nile would have more pace than him. Just think what Timo would have done on top of that.... For me, the guy is on or below Narain Karthikeyan form, or a Sakon Yamomoto level. The worst of it is the excuses that they (Marussia) constantly make for him. Still, I support Marussia as my main team, and I like Bianchi a lot, so that evens things out.

With the car, have there been any developments on the YDT anyone has seen? I would imagine they would have wrapped it up early for the 2014 car, not seen any photos on the F1 technical site though!

On the driver front, a Chilton has got to go. He's too slow for present day F1. It's not as though he brings so much money to compensate for finishing outside the top 10 and no driver gets quicker with experience. Basic speed is either there or it's not.

If no driver gets quicker with experience, how is this possible that Vettel was outpaced by Liuzzi most of the time in late 2007 (at least when it was dry?). If no driver gets quicker with experience, that means Liuzzi must be good enough to be a multiple WDC, and Sutil is perhaps the best driver in F1 history, since he beat Liuzzi very comfortably in 2010.

I agree that Chilton is too slow, but unless Marussia have a car that is capable of point scoring finishes quite regularly, driver's quality doesn't matter that much. It's better to keep money and improve the car and take better driver when the car is at this level, where driver can make a difference. Refusing those $10 million or so from pay driver may just kill backmarker team if they have the car in which even two WDCs are not able to secure any improvement in WCC.

If no driver gets quicker with experience, how is this possible that Vettel was outpaced by Liuzzi most of the time in late 2007 (at least when it was dry?). If no driver gets quicker with experience, that means Liuzzi must be good enough to be a multiple WDC, and Sutil is perhaps the best driver in F1 history, since he beat Liuzzi very comfortably in 2010.

I agree that Chilton is too slow, but unless Marussia have a car that is capable of point scoring finishes quite regularly, driver's quality doesn't matter that much. It's better to keep money and improve the car and take better driver when the car is at this level, where driver can make a difference. Refusing those $10 million or so from pay driver may just kill backmarker team if they have the car in which even two WDCs are not able to secure any improvement in WCC.

That is a specious argument. I am talking basic speed. That's a dichotomy. You've either got it or not. Yes race craft improves with experience and the ability to dial in car set up. Chilton is slow now and no amount of experience will make him quicker. To achieve that Marussia have to produce a quicker car. The simpler option is to put a quicker driver with less money in the car. At present Marussia are sitting on a knife edge wholly dependent on Bianchi to beat Caterham.

Edited by Petroltorque, 19 July 2013 - 20:49.

Given Bianchi's record in GP2 I doubt anybody thought he would be so quick in an F1 car, but he has been a revelation; the only other driver in the recent past to make the transition with such elan is Hamilton. Chilton was pretty near Bianchi's equal in GP2, so I doubt he has got worse, he just hasn't adapted as quickly. Many drivers have taken a while to come to terms with F1 but ended up being front runners, others, like Clark, Stewart and others, have instantly been on the pace, but even slow-coaches like Hill & Hulme ended as World Champions, in Hill's case, twice. Hamilton has won one championship and is hardly outpacing Rosberg at the moment "He is adapting to the car...", well so is Chilton, just not as quickly as Bianchi.

Chilton's record in the junior formulae suggests that he will take a couple of years at least to get up to speed, but at this level even his best may well not be good enough. In contrast, Bianchi has been fast in everything he has driven pretty much immediately, but error-prone, a tendency which seems to have disappeared this year.

Chilton's record in the junior formulae suggests that he will take a couple of years at least to get up to speed, but at this level even his best may well not be good enough. In contrast, Bianchi has been fast in everything he has driven pretty much immediately, but error-prone, a tendency which seems to have disappeared this year.

Its much easier when you've got no pressure and are only racing 3 other cars, maximum! Hopefully Jules has cut out the clumsiness, only time will tell.

That is a specious argument. I am talking basic speed. That's a dichotomy. You've either got it or not.

I'm not sure if I can understand you. I'll ask directly so: if you've either got the basic speed or not, why was Vettel outqualified 4-2 by Liuzzi on dry circuit in the second half of 2007?

Chilton is slow now and no amount of experience will make him quicker. To achieve that Marussia have to produce a quicker car. The simpler option is to put a quicker driver with less money in the car. At present Marussia are sitting on a knife edge wholly dependent on Bianchi to beat Caterham.

If Bianchi is unable to beat Caterham, so will (probably) the driver who replaces Chilton. It may be an unlucky event when Bianchi was on the way to beat Caterhams but his car failed and Caterham finished high enough to beat Marussia and Chilton's car was OK, but it's pure luck and it can end up in any way as long as both cars are unable to score a single point over a season. Especially that in the new Concorde Agreement the difference between 10th and 11th in WCC may not be that significant anymore (it's not even sure if Marussia will get any money if they finish in top10, if I haven't missed something, they haven't been offered yet any deal from Bernie and perhaps when the old Concorde Agreement expired, top10 in WCC might not get the money automatically anymore. Knowing Bernie, I believe it's fact.) It seems that backmarker teams rather follow my logic than your. Marussia and Caterham had together just one pay driver in 2011, because they believed they were able to achieve something. Now they have 4 pay drivers together, because they see investing in driver's quality is pretty much pointless at this level. Unless they catch midfield, quality of their drivers doesn't matter that much. They need a significant improvement in car performance before they can fight for anything and that can't be done without money. Refusing to have a pay-driver is a big risk for them. Especially for Marussia, who may go bankrupt if things don't go well for them. They may be beaten by Caterham easily even if they replace Chilton with somebody better. They may also beat Caterham with having Chilton onboard (which is the case currently). I believe there's more than 75% of chance that replacing Chilton wouldn't make any difference in terms of final result in WCC. Let's imagine they dump Chilton's sponsorship and still get beaten by Caterham. Will be they able to survive that way? Unless Chilton's replacement has simillar backing to him, I'm afraid it would be very sophisticated for them.

I'm not sure if I can understand you. I'll ask directly so: if you've either got the basic speed or not, why was Vettel outqualified 4-2 by Liuzzi on dry circuit in the second half of 2007?

IIRC in 2007 Vettel only competed in 7 races for STR from Hungary onwards. Luizzi already had a full season in 2006 with the team as well as a full season in 2007. His experience means he had more knowledge in terms of setting up the car and working with the mechanics. There was no doubt that Vettel was already quick in 2007. It was set up knowledge and race craft he needed to acquire.
On a slightly different note, a proper statistical method requires analysis of the head to head under all conditions. Selective omission of certain results results in a statistical bias and skews the results. Although a full analysis of the head to head favours Luizzi by 5 to 2. More telling is the fact that Vettel managed to outscore Luizzi in half as many races.
On the subject of Concorde agreement. Prior to its lapse in December 2012, 10th spot was worth around $50 millions. That equates to $35 million from Column 1 and $15 million from column 2. 11th spot was worth $10 million from the now dissolved column 3 payments. The Ad hoc arrangement in place for this season means 10th spot is still worth around $50 miilions but 11th gets nothing. The penalty for finishing 11th is significant.
The problem for Marussia is that Chilton's pace deficit to Bianchi is too great. Anything over 0.5s and the team automatically defaults the setup to the faster driver. Chilton's input is thus irrelevant since the team wants to know how to go faster not slower. The tail end battle may be to get into the midfield but at present it's to finish 10th and a $50 million prize fund.

Edited by Petroltorque, 20 July 2013 - 06:24.

Liuzzi had the basic speed as well. He didn't have the consistency or the dedication though. A Jan Magnussen figure.

Since Hungary and Spa (two complete different circuits) the difference between Marussia and Caterham is HUGE!

Bianchi can't get even close to the Caterham boys. And Max is closing in on Bianchi in qualifying (twice 0.2s behind bianchi).

They may be slower and i guess they have stopped developing the MR02 as well, but they still have a good chance to get that 10th place in WCC. Not safe at all of course, last year the new teams finished 13th or higher in three out of the final eight races. It's all about luck from now on, i guess.

 

They'd only get payed a pretty small amount of Column 2 money though, worth about $13.6m in 2011. You only qualify for Column 1 if you finish in the top 10 twice in the last three seasons, so Caterham will get that money in any case. Was about $34m in 2011, like Petroltorque said.

Edited by dau, 27 August 2013 - 13:25.

Since Hungary and Spa (two complete different circuits) the difference between Marussia and Caterham is HUGE!

It's not looking too good atm. I wonder if the changes to the tyres affected Marussia's performance? They were on Caterham's pace at Nurburgring, and since then they've been nowhere. Or have Caterham brought a lot of updates?

 

 

They may be slower and i guess they have stopped developing the MR02 as well, but they still have a good chance to get that 10th place in WCC. Not safe at all of course, last year the new teams finished 13th or higher in three out of the final eight races. It's all about luck from now on, i guess.

 

They'd only get payed a pretty small amount of Column 2 money though, worth about $13.6m in 2011. You only qualify for Column 1 if you finish in the top 10 twice in the last three seasons, so Caterham will get that money in any case. Was about $34m in 2011, like Petroltorque said.

They stopped developing already in May, so that is definitely a factor. Somehow i have feeling that they will lose the 10th place again.

 

Call me stupid but i actually see them concentrating on next year's car as good sign of the team's future. If they were desperate for money, then surely they would have kept on developing this year's car and sacrificed work on next year's car just to get that 10th place. 

Since Hungary and Spa (two complete different circuits) the difference between Marussia and Caterham is HUGE!

Bianchi can't get even close to the Caterham boys. And Max is closing in on Bianchi in qualifying (twice 0.2s behind bianchi).

 

Chilton had two runs in Q2, while  Bianchi only one.

 

And in the race Chilton was way off the pace.

10th place and Chilton finishes every race. 

Tenth place should buy them some breathing space but Chilton was rubbish. Should be interesting to see who gets the second seat alongside Bianchi. The driver market shake up could have an effect lower down the grid. Particularly if Guitierrez and Van Der Garde are left holding the baby.

There is no argument to suggest Chilton is truly an F1-quality driver. Given he is there, I think causing absolutely no trouble all year and keeping the carbon fibre bill minimal counts as a successful season.

Fair enough. But if Marussia want to move forward next year they need a better bench mark in the second seat. As the Russian owners are funding the team I would suggest the will have a greater say than Chilton senior.