Who has the fastest car or how wrong do we get it?

Have a feeling Ferrari will have the fastest car this year. It just looks like a rocket to me. The design is so aggressive with the high nose and coke bottle shape.
Red Bull will be close but i'm not confident enough that another evolution of the car is enough for another championship. Ferrari probably has more room for development in their new car.
McLaren will be right up there aswell but i'm not convinced that Button and Perez can beat Vettel/Alonso over the whole season. But they'll have their moments of glory. Same for Lotus.
Big question mark behind Mercedes for me. I think they'll either suck badly like the years before or they will produce some surprise wins with Hamilton/Rosberg pushing each other to show who's boss in their team.

Hold on !...we haven´t seen Alonso yet...

Just subtract 0.6 second from Massa's times.

Just subtract 0.6 second from Massa's times.

you sure? remember the end of last season where Massa was much faster than Alonso what if it stays that way?

Don't understand how Red Bull can get so many votes, based on what exactly? Last season perhaps?

Comparatively low tyre deg and good long run pace are fairly important qualities to have in their favour, in my opinion.

you sure? remember the end of last season where Massa was much faster than Alonso what if it stays that way?

Not that i am really gonna attempt to defend Alonso but how many races did Massa win last year. I'm not trying to insult Massa but lets face it, Alonso is on another level.

They are the only team who made major design changes on their 2013 contender.

I find it funny that so many people think that this is necessarily a good thing.

RedBull didn't make many design changes because THEY DON'T HAVE TO (Not counting whatever the Barcelona package will end up being). They spent the whole last season developing their tunnel design that other than Lotus no one else has even attempted. Not to mention we all know they have probably the best base car.

Yes, all those other things you mentioned about McLaren are more or less true and personally I expect them to be just as fast as RBR. But people keep forgetting (because that's what suits them in some cases) that Red Bull last year was hurt by rule changes then by having to change their design late in the process and then hampered by it not working properly for at least half the year. They don't need to do anything new, they just need to get back to a normal state.

And as I started saying, making lots of changes isn't necessarily a good thing. It could easily mean a lot of headaches as well. People have this mentality of looking to see who will have the next design "silver bullet" so hey whoever made the most changes stands the better chance of striking gold right? That is just silly.

Can't see past Red Bull. I'm not convinced by Lotus.

Red Bull
McLaren-Lotus-Ferrari
Merc-Sauber.

HRT.

So fast no one even saw them there.

Red Bull weren't as fast at the end of last year as people are making them out to be. They weren't faster than McLaren (in Lewis' hands) at the end of last year, and they've lost their DDRS, plus they were generally considered to have the most efficient DRS, which will also hurt them in qualifying.

They've spent more than Merc the last few years actually.

I didn't know that. I always kept hearing that the team had issues with money.

Red Bull weren't as fast at the end of last year as people are making them out to be. They weren't faster than McLaren (in Lewis' hands) at the end of last year, and they've lost their DDRS, plus they were generally considered to have the most efficient DRS, which will also hurt them in qualifying.

This. I can't understand why people still consider them the fastest, even though they weren't fastest even in 2012.

My mind says McLaren is going to be the fastest., but the heart says Ferrari. We'll see.

Ferrari has the fastest car, they've driven the fastest laptime so far, nothing more to say. Don't understand how Red Bull can get so many votes, based on what exactly? Last season perhaps?

It's really not that simple.

Don't understand how Red Bull can get so many votes, based on what exactly? Last season perhaps?

Yes. Do you think the pecking order, in a year with effectively no rule changes, will magically reset?

Personally I expect the pecking order to be, more or less, almost exactly as it was when the season ended.

Edited by EvanRainer, 08 February 2013 - 22:48.

Yes. Do you think the pecking order, in a year with effectively no rule changes, will magically reset?

It´s equally hard for me to imagine a grid SO damn close together, with such small gaps, not to have a decent number of changes in the order.

I voted Ferrari, Massa was getting 1.19 laps without even trying.

It´s equally hard for me to imagine a grid SO damn close together, with such small gaps, not to have a decent number of changes in the order.

That's kind of the thing and where people should be focusing. It's still probably going to be tier1 RBR/Mac, tier2 Ferrari & Lotus, tier3 Merc, Sauber,whomever. But if the gap between the tiers is say, 2 tenths, even without the randomness of last year, that makes even the 6th fastest car a win contender.

Same rules as last year, same result.

Red Bull weren't as fast at the end of last year as people are making them out to be. They weren't faster than McLaren (in Lewis' hands) at the end of last year, and they've lost their DDRS, plus they were generally considered to have the most efficient DRS, which will also hurt them in qualifying.

That's not a very relevant post at this moment....

It's still probably going to be tier1 RBR/Mac, tier2 Ferrari & Lotus, tier3 Merc, Sauber,whomever.

Based on what? Last year?

Ferrari has the fastest car, they've driven the fastest laptime so far, nothing more to say. Don't understand how Red Bull can get so many votes, based on what exactly? Last season perhaps?

A look at some data for more than 2 seconds perhaps?

Based on what? Last year?

Yes. All teams took a step forward and it will be MORE OR LESS the same. Careful, I am talking about THE PECKING ORDER here, I am NOT saying the GAPS will be the same.

Are.you saying you are expecting someone other than McLaren or Red Bull to be the fastest come MElbourne?

I don't know why some people are putting Ferrari ahead of McLaren, after Massa said he couldn't do buttons time. Lotus weren't so impressed with buttons time, so they are ahead of Ferrari too. I'm putting red bull ahead of all, based on Gary Andersons 10% more downforce observation. Mercedes are also ahead of Ferrari right now, after putting on their new front wing and rear bodywork update. The official order is:
Red bull
McLaren + 0.1
Lotus + 0.15
Mercedes + 0.3
Sauber + 0.3
Ferrari + 0.5
Force India + 0.7
Toro Rosso + 0.8
Williams ?
Catussia + don't care.

McLaren won in Brazil 2012. They were quicker than anyone there and this year rules don´t change. I think they are now sandbagging and they have more pace that show

Even if either Lotus or McLaren have the fastest car, it wont matter, since neither teams have a driver who can fulfill its whole potential

Therefore, I'd say that the real battle is RBR vs Ferrari, with perhaps RBR currently being fractionally ahead.

Keep on trolling...

Yes. All teams took a step forward and it will be MORE OR LESS the same. Careful, I am talking about THE PECKING ORDER here, I am NOT saying the GAPS will be the same.

But mate, as soon as the slightest changes in speed emerge, there WILL BE changes in the pecking order. It´s too close to discard a bit of a reshuffle. It can go from McLaren/RB/Ferrari/Lotus to Ferrari/Lotus/McLaren/RB in a flash, and back to the previous again in another flash, and then to another order in a second.

Sure, probably top tier teams will remain the same, ans midfield teams will remain that, but inside these groups A LOT of things will change.

Keep on trolling...

Kingshark refrains from answering the actual topic

Keep on trolling...

Don´t complain, mate, the post is still well over the poster´s average garbage. At least Vettel´s been FINALLY accepted in the World Class tier.

Yeah but I am talking about the overall pecking order. I am also not anticipating as much randomness as last year. Btw everyone was whining about random results last year and now everyone takes it for granted it will be the same.

And so in an overall sense, come on, as much as we'd all like to see it, there is a snowball's chance in hell Lotus will be a championship contender.

Hold on !...we haven´t seen Alonso yet...

That is a good point.

I expect it to be a mixed grid at the top where you can't say which car is faster than others after qualifying. Pole most likely for Vettel, but Ferrari, Mclaren or even Lotus could easily prove me wrong.

McLaren won in Brazil 2012. They were quicker than anyone there and this year rules don´t change. I think they are now sandbagging and they have more pace that show

The McLaren seems to have carried over from last season as the fastest car this year. Maybe Perez will be the one to watch in 2013.

Yeah but I am talking about the overall pecking order.

Then I agree. Not too probable Sauber or whoever will break into the top group, not too probable any of the big 4 will drop to the midfield. Grid will look roughly the same if you ask me.

And so in an overall sense, come on, as much as we'd all like to see it, there is a snowball's chance in hell Lotus will be a championship contender.

That´s where I don´t agree. I see perfectly possible ANY pecking order inside the closely matched tiers. ANY. It´s too close.

Sure, Lotus took big advantage out of the "random" (don´t agree with the expression, but still...) part of the season due to Pirelli new tyres (again don´t agree, it was down to teams not using them well). That´s what took them that close to the front mostly: heat, and tyre wear advantage. But even discarding early 20102, and taking as a starting point the stable last part of the season, they´re close enough to mount a challenge as soon as they gain the slightest of the margin on the big 3 teams. That´s my view at least, guess we won´t agree.

McLaren won in Brazil 2012. They were quicker than anyone there and this year rules don´t change. I think they are now sandbagging and they have more pace that show

IMO that fast lap from Jenson was a mistake. They took a little bit of fuel out, and the car turned into a monster. With no setup work having been done, there's no way they would have been expecting that.

I think they made sure that they were well fuelled up for the rest of the test, no point in letting others know the true pace.

I just hope they don't blow it this year.

Yer, because neither team has a WDC who knows how to get the job done with a fast car...

Keep on trolling...

I was expecting this sort of response given my controversial statement.

Nevertheless, I will try to explain my argument in the simplest way.

Button - Had the fastest car in 2012, not half the reliability glitches Hamilton did, and still couldn't even mount a challenge for the WDC.
Raikkonen - While he did better than Jenson, face it, that Lotus should have won in races such as Bahrain and Hungary easily.

IMO there are only three drivers on the current grid who generally get the absolute maximum out of any car they have to their disposal.

Which is why I believe that it wont be as crucial if Lotus or Mclaren had the fastest car. With a good car, you need a great driver.

I was expecting this sort of response given my controversial statement.

Nevertheless, I will try to explain my argument in the simplest way.

Button - Had the fastest car in 2012, not half the reliability glitches Hamilton did, and still couldn't even mount a challenge for the WDC.
Raikkonen - While he did better than Jenson, face it, that Lotus should have won in races such as Bahrain and Hungary easily.

IMO there are only three drivers on the current grid who generally get the absolute maximum out of any car they have to their disposal.

Which is why I believe that it wont be as crucial if Lotus or Mclaren had the fastest car. With a good car, you need a great driver.

*sigh* I shouldn't even answer to this post, considering how badly you care to even elaborate your claims.

Vettel made mistakes 2012.
Alonso got beaten 2012 by Massa at last few races, made mistakes too.
Hamilton made mistakes 2012, got beaten by Button in some occasions.
Räikkönen made mistakes, got beaten by Grosjean on some occasions.

etc. I could go on. Who were these 3 drivers you were talking about anyway? You failed to prove your point. As I said, just keep on trolling for all I care, can't expect anything more from you.

Anyways, I think that Red Bull will still dominate. Can't say anything for sure, yet anyways. Hopefully it will be a equal battle between Red Bull, Lotus, Ferrari and Mclaren. Can always wish at least..

Edited by darkkis, 09 February 2013 - 00:17.

*sigh* I shouldn't even answer to this post, considering how badly you care to even elaborate your claims.

Of course you shouldn´t. It´s just a preemptive post from him, he isn´t trying to make sense or anything. His only point is: in case Lotus/McLaren guys win races and challenge for the titles, it will be because the drivers enjoy a big car advantage, because they suck.

A bit like when people judges old seasons car competitiveness according to their preconceived and rigid ideas of the guys driving the machines, instead of just looking what the races of that season tell.

*sigh* I shouldn't even answer to this post, considering how badly you care to even elaborate your claims.

I already have. Raikkonen lost multiple races where Lotus was often considerably quicker than anyone else, such as in Bahrain and Hungary.

Vettel made mistakes 2012.
Alonso got beaten 2012 by Massa at last few races, made mistakes too.
Hamilton made mistakes 2012, got beaten by Button in some occasions.
Räikkönen made mistakes, got beaten by Grosjean on some occasions.

On far more occasions than either of the other three happened.

etc. I could go on. Who were these 3 drivers you were talking about anyway? You failed to prove your point. As I said, just keep on trolling for all I care, can't expect anything more from you.

Funny how the supposed "troll" is the only one who hasn't bothered countering troll comments.

Funny how the supposed "troll" is the only one who hasn't bothered countering troll comments.

Yeah right

indeed

I already have. Raikkonen lost multiple races where Lotus was often considerably quicker than anyone else, such as in Bahrain and Hungary.

On far more occasions than either of the other three happened.

Funny how the supposed "troll" is the only one who hasn't bothered countering troll comments.

Let's look purely at statistics. How many times did Vettel finish behind Webber in races that both drivers finished? 5 times

And Hamilton behind Button? 3 times

And Räikkönen behind Grosjean? 2 times

And it should not come as a surprise that Massa never finished ahead of Alonso, but had he been allowed to, if I remember correctly, he would have done it at least twice.


Please try harder.

Yeah right

indeed

Such as name calling other people trolls?

But since I know AS forum has a boner for Raikkonen, it becomes all the more fun criticizing him.

And Räikkönen behind Grosjean? 2 times

It's easier to finish not finish behind a teammate when he is a magnet for crashes, alternator failures, and team orders.

It's not as if I am surprised that the Australia first lap crash, Monaco start crash, Valencia alternator failure, or Singapore team orders are not a part of your agenda.


That being said, I think that this comment is quite interesting, regarding the fastest car debate:

http://www.f1fanatic...-red-bull-pace/

Don't show the fear to your competitor, I say?

Although Ferrari's recent fall back, losing to the faster teams might be due its out-dated simulator.

http://www.f1fanatic...ears-simulator/

Edited by Kingshark, 09 February 2013 - 00:51.

I already have. Raikkonen lost multiple races where Lotus was often considerably quicker than anyone else, such as in Bahrain and Hungary.

On far more occasions than either of the other three happened.

Funny how the supposed "troll" is the only one who hasn't bothered countering troll comments.

The races you mentioned were the only ones where Lotus really looked the fastest in the field in the RACE pace. Without good qualifying it's pretty hard to win and that's where they (both Kimi and the team) have to do better this season. Either way you can't say multiple races and give the exact two races as on examples where they where probably the quickest.

I'd say you can't claim that Button was worse than Grosjean compared to their relative team-mates overall...

And to answer the topics question, RB and Ferrari are looking good. Lotus and McLaren are still easily in the hunt and we'll see what happens in Barcelona.

It's not as if I am surprised that the Australia first lap crash, Monaco start crash, Valencia alternator failure, or Singapore team orders are not a part of your agenda.

And? Let's then put Kimi under the strictest possible inspection and that would bring the number up to similar to Vettel's without him being even put under similar kind of inspection. This also leads us to having to make assumptions that Grosjean would have finished ahead of Räikkönen in all of those cases otherwise, which is a big assumption to make on the first lap of the race. In any case, you claimed that Räikkönen made mistakes and got beaten by Grosjean on "far more occasions than either (sic) of the other three happened". That is simply not true. Kimi didn't make a single race-ending mistake although he may have done several smaller mistakes. Alonso had at least one bigger error of judgement, I can remember Vettel having a couple and so on.

I do remember Kimi getting critique for sometimes not improving on his Q2 time in Q3 or whatever and thus supposedly underperforming. That's fair enough, but the other top drivers all had their bad qualifying days. Again, I just want to emphasize that it is simply wrong to claim that Kimi's number of mistakes was somehow far larger than that of the other top drivers.

But since I know AS forum has a boner for Raikkonen, it becomes all the more fun criticizing him.

I don't think that's a healthy attitude to have. Of course you can criticize any driver you want, but here you seem to suggest that you are especially happy to point out any false moves a certain driver does just because he happens to have a lot of fans around the forum. I find that to be despicable behaviour.

Edited by Wander, 09 February 2013 - 01:12.

There should be a sleeping Kimi emoticon for these situations.

looks like this thread has been successfully trolled

I was expecting this sort of response given my controversial statement.

Nevertheless, I will try to explain my argument in the simplest way.

Button - Had the fastest car in 2012, not half the reliability glitches Hamilton did, and still couldn't even mount a challenge for the WDC.
Raikkonen - While he did better than Jenson, face it, that Lotus should have won in races such as Bahrain and Hungary easily.

IMO there are only three drivers on the current grid who generally get the absolute maximum out of any car they have to their disposal.

Which is why I believe that it wont be as crucial if Lotus or Mclaren had the fastest car. With a good car, you need a great driver.

Bahrain - Team didn't opt for undercut strategy, in fact they pit kimi on the same lap as vettel with slower pit stop (Martin Brundle slam the team strategies). People claim he failed to make the move and lost the race, however, even if he did made the move on vettel, he still gonna lose it on pit stop.

Hungary - Kers failure, narrow circuit, the facts that he could made the worn soft tyre run longer and jump the cars in front during pit stop window couple with a few fastest time that other failed to clock it on fresh tyre said it all about this driver 's ability. ( i have yet to see anyone doing the same)

All media have been paying attention on Mclaren 's blunders while overlooked the blunder strategies of Lotus. At least Allan Mcnish and Martin Brundle didn't, Allan even claimed in the post hockenheim sky forum that all the teams in the paddock questioned the lotus' strategy on tyre selection and pit stop timing.

That's the thing with haters, cannot be reason with. And they hardly look into these situation written on team report before making the general claim.

The mistakes far outweighs the other goods the driver produce in the eye of haters.

Kimi needs fastest car to challenge for title???

2003- challenge Michael for title with 2002 spec chassis, team failed to deliver new car for him, ended up 2 points behind.

Don't slam others as troll when you are the one igniting the fire.

Is ok to have the drivers you support, but if you feel the needs to belittle other driver in order to make yours look better, it just shows how much threat you see in Kimi Raikkonen.

Back into the topic:

Rbr and Lotus looks well balanced, Ferrari looks great on 1 lap pace, Mclaren looks great overall, Merc looks incredibly consistent on long run.

EDIT:

Would like to echo what Newey has said earlier, there would be no dominant car due to no major regs change, car development throughout the season will determine the front runner.

With that logic behind, it would be much easier to predict the outcome when there are only 4 team can afford big spending while simultaneously focusing on 2014 project.

Ferrari, Rbr, Mclaren and Merc.

Edited by kankshitbharos, 09 February 2013 - 05:57.

Red bull. Duh. If I recall lat year I think lotus were setting fast times on the first test. I think rbr is sand bagging

Red bull. Duh. If I recall lat year I think lotus were setting fast times on the first test. I think rbr is sand bagging

..and Allison says Lotus ran the whole test with lots of petrol on board.

..and Allison says Lotus ran the whole test with lots of petrol on board.

http://www1.skysport...o/27452/8482668

yy but it would fit with some people that were on track, and described Lotus car as really balanced and never losing grip in rear or front. I really think that they ahve really good car

Edited by Shiroo, 09 February 2013 - 08:28.

There is. But the only difference is reliability. You simply cannot predict that per-season.

What an astonishingly simplistic and naive thing to say in an F1 forum.

I hate to even think it, but I see shades of RB7 in RB9. The first 2 days in Webber's hands the car looked a little worse than it did with Vettel. He did some very consistent long runs, and the trackside observations also say the RedBull looks mighty. They always seem to hold quite a bit back until Melbourne, aswell.
Ferrari did some good long runs also, but they did those in 2011 and that turned out pretty bad.
McLaren, Lotus, Ferrari all look good but it may be hard to choose between them.