Ferrari have been fine with that. The advantages of bringing the engines in-house would probably negate any disadvantages.
Like being the factory team, and knowing the developments needed in house for car-engine combination.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:05
Ferrari have been fine with that. The advantages of bringing the engines in-house would probably negate any disadvantages.
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Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:10
Like being the factory team, and knowing the developments needed in house for car-engine combination.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:19
Also, knowing that a third party cannot just take your engine supply away seemingly overnight. This is a path McLaren really should have gone down many years ago. They obviously share this viewpoint otherwise they would have outsourced the engines in their roadcars.
If they haven't bought Cosworth yet, I can seriously see this happening as the upsides are just too good. While the Cosworth engines were not the best, they were not that far from it - Also - with the new regs - if they come to the party a year or so late - they have that additional year or so of materials, knowledge and development over the locked engines.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:22
The down side is the amount of cash to be spent in a single operation.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:31
Which makes it an even bigger risk.Ferrari have been fine with that.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:40
McLaren is cash rich at the moment - the amount of money they have spent on the production building for the road cars show's that. Also, in the medium to long term there are savings to be made having engine design and building onsite. They must have a big hole in the main building now that the road cars are next door. Buying Cosworth would mean they could bring all of that equipment and IP in house.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:50
That's one possibility. They could do a Ilmor/Mercedes with Honda, where Honda gives the cash and some brain power and rebrands the engines.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 12:52
True intellectuals I presume...
Posted 08 February 2013 - 13:09
Only if you're consistently making duds. We took the mick out of Ferrari in 1996 for their exploding engines but it didn't harm their reputation.Which makes it an even bigger risk.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 13:10
The down side is the amount of cash to be spent in a single operation.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 13:16
McLaren having to find a further 15 million euros (£12m) per annum for the engine and KERS power-boost package to compete in Formula One.
Since McLaren is already a huge motorsport supplyer - ECUs to F1 and NASCAR - maybe it is better to buy Cosworth and sell complete engines.
Mercedes might have created a monster here, since McLaren can snatch customers from them in the future.
The divorce transformed a partner into a bitter competitor.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 14:40
Mclaren can sell their turbo engines for F1 and LeMans.The mathematics simply doesn't make sense here.
I agree a customer engine deal will cost about £12 million per year.
Now if McLaren becomes an engine supplier by buying Cosworth they'll have to fund the design and manufacture of a new engine according to the new regulations. This will cost in the region of £100 million. Redesigning the engine for a major new regulation change will cost somewhere in that region every time it happens which at current rates is probably once or twice a decade.
They cannot simply make that money back by passing it onto customer teams since engine deals are fixed at pretty low rates relative to manufacturing costs. Companies like Renault etc can write off those huge sums of money as part of their marketing spend but a small company like McLaren cannot.
They also run the risk of being liable for Cosworth's fixed costs if the engine project doesn't work out, and being at the mercy of the FIA which could bankrupt their operation if Max Mosley style biannual regulations changes come back again.
Edited by V3TT3L, 08 February 2013 - 14:41.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 15:31
Posted 08 February 2013 - 15:44
Its not COST = 120mYou'll spend a lot more than 120m in ten years of engine development.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:01
Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:12
In McLaren we trustEh? You'd be lucky to have revenues of 120m. Your costs would be at least that.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:24
Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:43
Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:48
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Posted 08 February 2013 - 16:52
SOME TEAMS JUST GO BUSTED.Its not COST = 120m
Its REVENUE - COST = 120m
Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:01
Edited by juicy sushi, 08 February 2013 - 17:03.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:15
Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:18
Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:38
Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:43
Posted 08 February 2013 - 17:47
Will Cosworth even stay for 2014 and beyond? I've no clue about engine development, but I guess <12 months won't be enought to build an F1 engine from scratch.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 19:25
Also - Honda would cause image problems, their road cars are seen as old people wagons, their last F1 try was a farce - they are not good adverts in F1 right now.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 19:42
Posted 08 February 2013 - 20:58
Except I didnt ! Your analogy is way off tangent mate. McLaren buying Cosworth today is daftness personified. ..Eh, didnt Ron Dennis the big cheese at Macca recently say 'money is tight these days'?..reason why they let Lewis go to Mercedes??You could have said the same about McLaren in 1981...
Posted 08 February 2013 - 21:42
wut
Posted 08 February 2013 - 21:47
To your McLaren MP4/12C buyer, or even your average person on the street - Honda makes old people wagons. Very few people outside of places like this if the name Honda was mentioned would think of the images you supplied.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 22:01
wut
http://cdn2.img01.ca...oncept/01_l.jpg
http://img2.netcarsh...allpaper_03.jpg
http://www.autoguide...-cr-z-gt-19.jpg
http://tmrpg.la.coocan.jp/DPP_2721.JPGBGP001RA109
http://images.tvnz.c...cornering_2.jpg
Posted 08 February 2013 - 22:02
Eh, didnt Ron Dennis the big cheese at Macca recently say 'money is tight these days'?
reason why they let Lewis go to Mercedes??
Posted 08 February 2013 - 22:19
Depends on the market entirely.
Honda has a sporting image in several markets like the us and japan while in Europe its image is more sedate, but even there Honda is under pressure from its dealer network to raise its motorsport profile again, which was the main driver behind its new wtcc effort.
All McLaren needs to do to convince buyers of the McLaren Honda heritage is have a few strategically placed photos of a certain A. Senna in his prime.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 22:33
Because it's true?It's obvious why he said that.
Posted 08 February 2013 - 22:41
Posted 08 February 2013 - 23:01
Civic.OK, I'll agree that probably the name Honda won't conjure up a racing image in most people's minds.
But "old people's wagons" ?? Isn't that a bit ridiculous? Where do you live?? The first thing that comes to mind when hearing "Honda" (other than bikes of course) is: "Type-R".
Posted 09 February 2013 - 00:54
Posted 09 February 2013 - 01:21
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Posted 09 February 2013 - 04:09
Honda is best prepared team to join F1 under new regulations.
> Indy V-6 Twin Turbo 2.2cc.
> LeMans LM P2 V-8 twin Turbo 3.4cc
Mercedes has no tradition on small cc turbos, except the Sauber's Silver Arrows.
So maybe it is not the best choice for 2014 onwards.
Posted 09 February 2013 - 04:46
Well... I took the info from a site.You've got your engines mixed up there for the LMP cars, Honda have two separate engines: a 3.4 naturally-aspirated V8 for LMP1 and a low-boost stock-block twin-turbo 2.8 V6 for LMP2.
Posted 09 February 2013 - 09:38
OK, I'll agree that probably the name Honda won't conjure up a racing image in most people's minds.
But "old people's wagons" ?? Isn't that a bit ridiculous? Where do you live?? The first thing that comes to mind when hearing "Honda" (other than bikes of course) is: "Type-R".
Posted 09 February 2013 - 13:10
To your McLaren MP4/12C buyer, or even your average person on the street - Honda makes old people wagons. Very few people outside of places like this if the name Honda was mentioned would think of the images you supplied.
Posted 09 February 2013 - 13:22
To your McLaren MP4/12C buyer, or even your average person on the street - Honda makes old people wagons. Very few people outside of places like this if the name Honda was mentioned would think of the images you supplied.
Edited by pinkypants, 09 February 2013 - 13:24.
Posted 09 February 2013 - 16:37
hm
http://www.adpunch.o...qzJSG_15921.jpg
http://blog-imgs-24....81031194257.jpg
Honda rules!
http://simpsonsnews....sons_kangoo.jpg
http://img5.blogs.ya...62_0?1297753693
Posted 09 February 2013 - 21:17
Posted 09 February 2013 - 22:10
You people are all too British. The Honda is for old people cliche only exists in Britain.
The rest of the world thinks of the Civic as one of those tuner cars and Honda as a Japanese brand that produces cars a few steps cooler than Toyota. Toyota make white goods, Honda, Nissan and Subaru make cars. Yes it isn't as cool as a Mercedes, Ferrari or BMW - but it's cooler than Renault.
Posted 09 February 2013 - 22:51
Posted 09 February 2013 - 22:55
Average MP4-12C buyer. Heh. Lot of those in this thread.
Posted 09 February 2013 - 22:59