rally NEEDS fierce cars again

VW are releasing a limited-edition Polo R road car this year... you'd think as it's a limited run it would share some aspects of the racer and be a true desirable car... no, it's a regular Polo GTI with some WRC stickers...



And they'll wonder in a couple of years time why the Polo R WRC car hasn't generated any significant buzz in terms of hot Polo sales...

Again, look at the late 90's Impreza. It sits low like a tarmac setup WRC car. It has the big wing just like it's racing brother, and has interior touches that hint at it's racing pedigree. There will be nothing special about that Polo other than it's paintjob...

I agree with you. There's nothing inspiring about a Polo or a Fiesta, however they need those short wheelbases in order to be competitive. (Maybe not, I'm not sure why all manufacturers are running their tiniest cars in the WRC) Also agree that the old Subaru looks way better than the new one, however I feel that is something that plagues the whole automotive industry. Everyone is making their cars with more curves, which I feel makes them uglier.

Pirelli tyres anyone ?

I think homologation is an outdated concept. If the manufacturers thought they'd make money by selling special WRC editions of their Polos and DS3's then I'm sure they'd do it.

If you don't have homologation, the teams could show up with the rally-equivalent of an F1 car, and claim that it is a mass-produced vehicle. You must have homologation in production racing b/c it is the only way to define a 'production car'. Even prototype racing is governed by homologation these days, but they don't require the parts to be sold or homologated for road use.

Exactly.
If Subaru UK have decided that to stop selling Impreza's what hope has anyone else got of selling 4WD Rally specials

It's not just about the UK. Not everyone's in complete financial recession here, and some markets (the US for example) are big enough to still have homologation specials sell quickly despite the economy.

Japan used to sell out - in it's home market alone - the 5000 Lancer Evo's that were made for each model run, and usually within days. Never mind places like New Zealand, Australia, the US, Europe....

Mitsubishi's still shifting Evo 10's six years after they came out! Never needed to develop an Evo 11...

I think the real issue is that today's corporate beancounters dont have the nuts to greenlight 'specials' lest they sell slower than hoped and the share price is affected by any negative publicity. Which means that those that made the decisions probably get canned.

Edited by NotSoSilentBob, 12 February 2013 - 03:47.

There's also been major price blowouts on the Subarus and Evos - An Integrale offered close to Ferrari performance at a fraction of the price. A top spec WRX/EVO costs a lot more than the Group A road-going equivalents did. They just aren't affordable anymore.

Toyota, I think, has the right idea with the 86, and the cheaper track-day variant they also offer. If they can make it work, why can't anyone else? My kingdom for a modern bargain basement priced AWD 5 speed hatch with a tweakable engine.

Edited by ClubmanGT, 12 February 2013 - 04:47.

Pirelli tyres anyone ?

Didn't they keep puncturing the last season they supplied tyres?

Toyota, I think, has the right idea with the 86, and the cheaper track-day variant they also offer. If they can make it work, why can't anyone else? My kingdom for a modern bargain basement priced AWD 5 speed hatch with a tweakable engine.

Designing a new car is so expensive these days, that even the biggest car maker on the planet had to develop it as a joint venture. Even though the joint venture was with Subaru, they had to make it 2WD. And we don't know whether this venture will ever turn a profit.

Rally could do with something to catch the public interest again and admittedly the Group B cars were incredible at the time, but sadly the safety of rally courses could not be controlled to the level of the spectator interest that resulted, as a young motorsport fan at the time the cars in Rally, Sportscars and F1 were all reaching the limits of the safety in their respective arenas and it was difficulty to hear of each fatal accident that resulted from the combination of these circuits/courses and the cars running them. When I first was old enough to take a proper interest fatal accidents were common, Winkelhock and Bellof in Group C in '85, Bettega's crash in Group B with the spectators, '86 being very bad when first Toivonen and then Elio De Angelis in F1 testing, barely a week later, then Surers big one that killed his co-driver...

Sure the cars were exciting but they were unsuited to the conditions, just as F1 cars and Sportscars have been tamed to a tepid version as safety has taken a hold, so have the rally cars, but I would like to see them introduce features to the rally cars that at least make them look more appealing than they do currently, Group B cars were slower than the current cars but they looked much faster with the wings and aero etc, along with the sound and this made them more appealing, aesthetic appeal is very much lacking in the current cars, it doesn't matter that they are based on slightly boring hatchbacks, rallying has generally always been about that, but they need beefing up a bit and for manufacturers to take an interest, BTCC looked to be on it's last legs with only works Vauxhalls a few years back but rules changes have increased its popularity again and Rally could do with the same... however financial climate and all???

Just my tuppence worth...

I would like to see them introduce features to the rally cars that at least make them look more appealing than they do currently, Group B cars were slower than the current cars but they looked much faster with the wings and aero etc, along with the sound and this made them more appealing, aesthetic appeal is very much lacking in the current cars, it doesn't matter that they are based on slightly boring hatchbacks, rallying has generally always been about that, but they need beefing up a bit and for manufacturers to take an interest, BTCC looked to be on it's last legs with only works Vauxhalls a few years back but rules changes have increased its popularity again and Rally could do with the same... however financial climate and all???

Um......


I honestly believe most people posting here haven't even looked at a modern car......

VW are releasing a limited-edition Polo R road car this year... you'd think as it's a limited run it would share some aspects of the racer and be a true desirable car... no, it's a regular Polo GTI with some WRC stickers...



And they'll wonder in a couple of years time why the Polo R WRC car hasn't generated any significant buzz in terms of hot Polo sales...

TBF that's not quite true, it's got a 2.0 engine vs the GTi's 1.4, with significantly better performance. That said, I agree it could have been a bit more 'out there', maybe another 15 or 20 bhp and more distinctive styling/interior, but the all wings & spoilers boy racer mobiles just aren't selling anymore, probably because a lot of the people who used to buy them can no longer afford to insure them.

Um......


I honestly believe most people posting here haven't even looked at a modern car......

But no-one believes you have to be some kind of fruitcake to drive that. There's no 'specialness' about that car. it's the nature of better technology and improvement.

Keep bringing up pictures and saying 'look it is like Group B in some ways' is only proving how much it isn't!

Um......


I honestly believe most people posting here haven't even looked at a modern car......

Nice try, I certainly have looked at a modern rally car and all those in between, but you have posted a picture of a car that without the wing looks like a normal ST... it's hardly a match in visual appeal compared to an S1 or an 037! What you have there looks like most of the cars inhabiting McDonalds car park on a Saturday evening, if you removed the roof spoiler it's hardly worth a second glance, the Group B cars had stuff bolted on all over which were not like the road cars at the time, the Fiesta above has a wing and wider track but it hasn't brought anything visually that we didn't have 25 years ago, it's not outrageous because we've seen it all before, it hasn't moved on a level from a visual perspective.

So, that's what you want?

So, that's what you want?

I'd watch that

So, that's what you want?

Ha Ha you appear to have posted yet another car from McDonalds car park... keep enjoying your precious Halfords specials Kosmic, I made my points, the sensible posters may undserstand what I meant!

Edited by DampMongoose, 12 February 2013 - 16:54.

Nice try, I certainly have looked at a modern rally car and all those in between, but you have posted a picture of a car that without the wing looks like a normal ST... it's hardly a match in visual appeal compared to an S1 or an 037! What you have there looks like most of the cars inhabiting McDonalds car park on a Saturday evening, if you removed the roof spoiler it's hardly worth a second glance, the Group B cars had stuff bolted on all over which were not like the road cars at the time, the Fiesta above has a wing and wider track but it hasn't brought anything visually that we didn't have 25 years ago, it's not outrageous because we've seen it all before, it hasn't moved on a level from a visual perspective.

I wrote it down within an article for a car magazine I did about the Lancia Stratos and I make the very same comment here too:

Park an Alitalia liveried Stratos next to a current day World Championship contesting rallycar and it will be the Stratos that will get all the attention because it looks so much better, more spectacular and as being much faster. Looks deceive, I know but the first impression shal allways be for the Stratos.

After having said that, I realize that the current cars are faster than the Group B's of days gone by despite being much less powerful so I don't think I want all of that raw power back again.


Henri

I wrote it down within an article for a car magazine I did about the Lancia Stratos and I make the very same comment here too:

Park an Alitalia liveried Stratos next to a current day World Championship contesting rallycar and it will be the Stratos that will get all the attention because it looks so much better, more spectacular and as being much faster. Looks deceive, I know but the first impression shal allways be for the Stratos.

After having said that, I realize that the current cars are faster than the Group B's of days gone by despite being much less powerful so I don't think I want all of that raw power back again.


Henri

or it catches their attention cause it has big headlights and it's an old car they can rarely see?

or it catches their attention cause it has big headlights and it's an old car they can rarely see?

And to reiterate my point you need a car that looks out of the ordinary (like a Stratos/S1/037/6r4) compared to its base model... a Fiesta with a wing doesn't cut it, no matter how quick!

Edited by DampMongoose, 12 February 2013 - 19:31.

And to reiterate my point you need a car that looks out of the ordinary (like a Stratos/S1/037/6r4) compared to its base model... a Fiesta with a wing doesn't cut it, no matter how quick!

its out of the ordinary cause it's a 40 years old car

Ha Ha you appear to have posted yet another car from McDonalds car park... keep enjoying your precious Halfords specials Kosmic, I made my points, the sensible posters may undserstand what I meant!

Nope. And if you take the 205, it's a pretty normal car with huge wings.

Park an Alitalia liveried Stratos next to a current day World Championship contesting rallycar and it will be the Stratos that will get all the attention because it looks so much better, more spectacular and as being much faster. Looks deceive, I know but the first impression shal allways be for the Stratos.

That's not really fair with Stratos quite possibly being the most beautiful car ever made. I doubt the crowd reaction would be the same with the other cars running in WRC against the Stratos back in the 70s: Fiat 131, Ford Escort, Opel Ascona, Saab 99, Sunbeam Lotus. Actually, I'm struggling to come up with any other non-ugly rally car before the Coupe Quattro came along.

Nope. And if you take the 205, it's a pretty normal car with huge wings.

It's not just appearance though. In the days of Group B ordinary family saloons had 80 or 90 bhp, while hot hatches had around 130, so these monsters with 400-500 horse power really were a sight (and sound) to behold. Nowadays hot hatches are at 220bhp or more, so a WRC car with 300hp just doesn't wow people in the same way.

It's not just appearance though. In the days of Group B ordinary family saloons had 80 or 90 bhp, while hot hatches had around 130, so these monsters with 400-500 horse power really were a sight (and sound) to behold. Nowadays hot hatches are at 220bhp or more, so a WRC car with 300hp just doesn't wow people in the same way.

But how does anyone tell how many bhp a WRC has just by looking at it? They go faster than the GpB cars, and you CAN see that.

But how does anyone tell how many bhp a WRC has just by looking at it? They go faster than the GpB cars, and you CAN see that.

The fact that they go faster than Group B is irrelevant; it's a question of relative performance compared to Joe Public's road cars in their own time. Or do you really believe that a WRC Citroen is as impressive to a Focus RS driver as a Quattro S1 was to an XR3 driver? To people like me who were excitable teens at the time is was fascinating and amazing seeing factories compete to get ever more power from those 1.8l blocks, but no one today will say "wow, they got 300bhp out of 2l!" If anything the fact that they're now faster is a disadvantage, because they're achieving it via lots of whisper quiet unseen electronics, as opposed to the more spectacular approach of adding raw power (and noise!).

I'm not for a minute suggesting we should have 1000bhp rally cars, it's just a fact of life that things have changed in 30 years, technologies, environmental outlooks, manufacturer priorities, etc. You're not going to have that gulf in road vs rally performance anymore, and IMHO opinion it's one of the many factors for rallying drawing less interest these days.

Nope. And if you take the 205, it's a pretty normal car with huge wings.

Not really, appearance wise it looked closer than many others which is why I haven't mentioned it against it's competitors because the Audi, Lancia and Metro certainly didn't, however as for outrageous didn't it have the engine in the opposite end??? Hardly normal for a 205 and pretty sure none of the current cars are that far apart from their base models... that Fiesta shown earlier certainly doesn't cut it!

Or do you really believe that a WRC Citroen is as impressive to a Focus RS driver as a Quattro S1 was to an XR3 driver?

Yes, I do. A Focus RS driver will be thinking "How the hell is he keeping that car on the road? My Focus would have spat me off into the ditch at that speed".

And an XR3 driver would have been impressed by almost anything with wheels.

To people like me who were excitable teens at the time is was fascinating and amazing seeing factories compete to get ever more power from those 1.8l blocks, but no one today will say "wow, they got 300bhp out of 2l!"

How many casual rally spectators have even the slightest clue how many bhp a car has? It's not as if it is written on the side after all. As you say, you were an excitable teen back then, and now you aren't. Today's excitable teens will still be impressed.

I recently reread a bit in the blog WRC behind the stages. Good stuff and certainly shows how much the cars have improved in a short time. Raw power is just an element, or in other words, la potenza è niente senza controllo.

Edited by H2H, 12 February 2013 - 22:02.

As you say, you were an excitable teen back then, and now you aren't. Today's excitable teens will still be impressed.
[/quote]

Todays teens are easily impressed, I've heard Taylor Swift 'sing'...

You also made a comment about casual rally fans? You might need to explain that, I don't remember any of those when Group B was on the go...

As for modewrn WRC's going faster, it doesn't mean as much to a spectator it's more the way they appear on the road, Can Am cars are far more enjoyable to watch live than modern LMP cars...

Mildly modified Production cars. Not the jokes that are out there at the moment. Preferably all rear drive with grunt.
I saw some footage recently here in Oz with some Classic rally cars among the modern stuff. The sideways Escorts, and V8 Commodore beat the modern stuff hands down for appeal. And actually are not that much slower.

You also made a comment about casual rally fans? You might need to explain that, I don't remember any of those when Group B was on the go...

There were millions of them! Anyone who isn't a regular rally competitor, marshal/official or support team member is a casual spectator. Some are less casual than others - the real keen types who go to a number of events a year but most only turn out at their local event. The RAC Rally in the Gp B days attracted more spectators than any other sporting event in the UK but most of them only went to one rally a year and most had little knowledge of the specification of the cars they were watching. They certainly didn't know how many bhp a 205T16 had, nor did they really care.

The Televised "clover-leaf" killed Rally. IMO.

The Televised "clover-leaf" killed Rally. IMO.

Or the non televised 'Clover leaf' format. Which was the whole point, except it didn't materialise. And look what we were left with?
The teams have become hung up on central service, that spreading the route out is really hard work for organisers. Who, in the main, stay with the status quo, and we have 12-13 identikit events.

Really, the sport needs 4-5 Manufacturers with 3-4 seats each, and semi-Privateers as well, with cheap cars. Are the R5 cars going to be the saviour of the sport? As usual, the costs will rise.... and so the cycle begins.

Not really, appearance wise it looked closer than many others which is why I haven't mentioned it against it's competitors because the Audi, Lancia and Metro certainly didn't, however as for outrageous didn't it have the engine in the opposite end??? Hardly normal for a 205 and pretty sure none of the current cars are that far apart from their base models... that Fiesta shown earlier certainly doesn't cut it!

Could you see the engine when the 205 drove past?
No, so it doesn't matter where it is!

The 205 or the delta or metro aren't that different from today's wrcs.
Small family car + big arches + big wing + 4wd.
Simple really

Fierce cars... So lets test your reception for something like this:

Fierce cars... So lets test your reception for something like this:

Driven by good drivers.

Driven by good drivers.

I wonder how annoyed his dad was when he found out someone had borrowed his car?

Driven by good drivers.

You are correct.
The minimum number for homologation is 5000 and has been since the beginning of group a/n

It started at 5000 and was later dropped to 2500.

Could you see the engine when the 205 drove past?
No, so it doesn't matter where it is!

The 205 or the delta or metro aren't that different from today's wrcs.
Small family car + big arches + big wing + 4wd.
Simple really

Again, I didn't use the 205 to make my point, so it's outward appearance wasn't really a factor to my opinion, however you hit the nail on the head that the 205, Delta or Metro aren't that different to modern WRC's, which as I said before, rally cars haven't developed in appearance over the last 25 years! Rally cars currently have nothing to make people interested, they look too close to the road equivalents... as someone else said no 'wow' factor!

Oh and when I mentioned the Lancia previously, I was talking about the 037 not the Delta...

Edited by DampMongoose, 13 February 2013 - 09:52.

Again, I didn't use the 205 to make my point, so it's outward appearance wasn't really a factor to my opinion, however you hit the nail on the head that the 205, Delta or Metro aren't that different to modern WRC's, which as I said before, rally cars haven't developed in appearance over the last 25 years! Rally cars currently have nothing to make people interested, they look too close to the road equivalents... as someone else said no 'wow' factor!

Oh and when I mentioned the Lancia previously, I was talking about the 037 not the Delta...

It should be remembered the 80s were an era of innovation and technological discovery. The 205 GTi and the Golf GTi, for example, were special cars, new discoveries that allowed the masses to go supercar speeds at a fraction of the cost. Now, no one really cares about the new hot hatches as much as they used to. Cars, as objects of desire, aren't really what they used to be.

Edited by rhukkas, 13 February 2013 - 11:14.

Also. The group B era was extremely popular due to 4WD, the speed, the power, how the drivers was seen as madmen(and women) and extremely good driver. Rallying lost some momentum in the start of the Gr.A era, but then came back, and people could by the cars they saw rallying in the weekends. It felt like buying the actual Gr.N car, that could "be" the rally car with very little modifications. That made it all very interesting again. And you kinda could "accept" that you couldn't buy a 206 "WRC" or a Corolla "WRC" in the shops, because you could buy the most of them. But as time went by, the majority of the cars wasn't avaible to be bought. Then manufactures pulled out, and the interest fell.

Now we have cars faster than Gr.B, that are somewhat similar to the way the cars vs rally cars was in the Gr.B era. But it isn't any of the sensations from the Gr.B era, not the power, not how it feels when regard to speed, the rallies are much easier, and the drivers aren't seen as madmen and extremely good by the random guy in the street.
And you can't buy, or dream of buying your own "rally car" after a rally either, so that part is gone.

In my mind, you need mindblowing cars, on rough and hard rallies that differs quite a lot from eachother. Or cars you can buy yourself. If you don't have any of these ingredients. I think it will be hard

And they'll wonder in a couple of years time why the Polo R WRC car hasn't generated any significant buzz in terms of hot Polo sales...

Corporate idiocy is ruining the planet.

They only thing missing from the group B era is power.
Thats it.

Could you say any different about F1 or Touring Cars or LMP cars?

In fact, when you think about it, compared to those cars WRC is the one that most closely resembles what was raced in the 1980's
F1 cars now have 1/2 the power, a big battery, and push to pass & 1 million square miles of run off. They also lap at similar speeds
Touring cars have half the power (of an rs500), FWD, sound horrible & are essentially bumper cars. They lap slower
LMP cars have just over half the power, diesels, batteries, and the mulsane has chicanes. They lap slower
WRC has 65% of the power, the same mad bodykits, and the trees haven't moved anywhere. Oh, and they're about 8 seconds/km faster

For me the only thing that would make Rally interesting is dedicated ground-up monsterous offroad hardware not based on anything, with survival cells and big minimum weight and massive tyres, that would take out a tree and decelerate rather than stop dead in its tracks. Like something out of sci-fi.



Or, completely stock cars except for tyres and a cage. Bone stock. Let's see who makes the best rally car, who are the best drivers, and which team has the best mechanics.
Not which team has the most resources.

Rallying to me is amazing drivers driving at breathtaking speeds on narrow, curvy roads with next to no room for error. Pure driving skills.

For me personally, the rest doesn't really matter.

And that hasn't changed over the last 30-odd years so I do not have a problem with either the cars, stages or events of todays WRC although I agree some more variation between the events would do no harm.

They only thing missing from the group B era is power.
Thats it.

Could you say any different about F1 or Touring Cars or LMP cars?

In fact, when you think about it, compared to those cars WRC is the one that most closely resembles what was raced in the 1980's
F1 cars now have 1/2 the power, a big battery, and push to pass & 1 million square miles of run off. They also lap at similar speeds
Touring cars have half the power (of an rs500), FWD, sound horrible & are essentially bumper cars. They lap slower
LMP cars have just over half the power, diesels, batteries, and the mulsane has chicanes. They lap slower
WRC has 65% of the power, the same mad bodykits, and the trees haven't moved anywhere. Oh, and they're about 8 seconds/km faster

Sorry but although I agree with the majority of your post, the LMP cars bit simply isn't true... a 908 Peugeot can lap the current Le Mans circuit (with the chicanes at Dunlop, and Mulsanne) in under 3min 20s, in 1988 the last year before the chicanes on Mulsanne and with the quicker Dunlop the fastest lap was only 3min 22s! The laptimes in '91 were around the 3min 30s mark when the mulsanne chicanes were in place...

However, the lower power but faster laptimes they produce is very similar to modern rallying, but again the cars have none of the spectacle, having been to many Group C races in the 80's and several LMP races in the last few years the older cars were far better to watch, same thing with watching the Group B's in action in the RAC compared to modern cars, they don't look or sound as good, and that is what matters to spectators. Similarly, sportscar racing is suffering from lack of manufacturers interest too!

Yes, I agree.

How about 5 litter car class for WRC? Guys will buy those cars, and the company does have money for ad works! Let it come!!

Really, the sport needs 4-5 Manufacturers with 3-4 seats each, and semi-Privateers as well, with cheap cars. Are the R5 cars going to be the saviour of the sport? As usual, the costs will rise.... and so the cycle begins.

Rally Sweden had 20 drivers with WRC cars by VW, Ford, Citroen and Mini. This already would've fulfilled your criteria, which I by the way completely agree with, if
- 6 of those entries weren't drivers with such limited ability that their race was against S2000 drivers
- The TV coverage would've better highlighted the drama involved with the battle also for positions other than the lead (Rally Radio and the live splits - when functional - already cater for this)
- The TV/video coverage overall was better, with e.g. dual in-car comparisons, expert commentary, etc.; at the moment the 30-minute highlight shows are just a monologued montage of special stage footage without any visual indicators about who's doing well plus driver interviews after the stage and at the service park

I recently reread a bit in the blog WRC behind the stages. Good stuff and certainly shows how much the cars have improved in a short time. Raw power is just an element, or in other words, la potenza è niente senza controllo.

Heh, I actually read it (again) yesterday.