Mercedes-Benz W196 offered at auction

Might explain why MB did not help with Willie Green's efforts to get the car running.

I suspect that something could soon be made again. Especially if you pay 25m for the car.
Modern pistons and rings would solve the problem, though then the car is less 'historic' Almost certainly a modern fuel can be reformulated to suit. It is only a few 100k, peanuts after the purchase price.
Since it seems this car has been abused on the track, running poorly without the right fuels it will need a major engine rebuild anyway. As possibly will the fuel injection system.
It is looking more and more like a museum piece!

And isn't that what it was supposed to be?

I suspect that something could soon be made again. Especially if you pay 25m for the car.
Modern pistons and rings would solve the problem, though then the car is less 'historic' Almost certainly a modern fuel can be reformulated to suit. It is only a few 100k, peanuts after the purchase price.
Since it seems this car has been abused on the track, running poorly without the right fuels it will need a major engine rebuild anyway. As possibly will the fuel injection system.
It is looking more and more like a museum piece!

That earlier description of 1950s Mercedes bore-honing stirred some memories, weren't the later alloy-blocked McLaren CanAm car engines done that way? The process was described to me by one of the mechanics as "swirly-honing", it certainly sounds pretty similar, and as Lee said, surely modern rings and pistons would solve the problem.

That earlier description of 1950s Mercedes bore-honing stirred some memories, weren't the later alloy-blocked McLaren CanAm car engines done that way? The process was described to me by one of the mechanics as "swirly-honing", it certainly sounds pretty similar, and as Lee said, surely modern rings and pistons would solve the problem.

I agree that You can reengineer the engines to work without the special honing tool and said aus much above.
and yes, rings, pistons, oil would be what you would look at.

Something else has ocurred to me in the meantime.
These engines have desmodromic valve actuation.
Not a big deal nowadays as hundreds of thousands of Ducatis run this albeit a different version with rocker actuation.
Remember that Scarab tried to make this work at the time and failed spectacularly, their engines would not even start.
You have to run very close tolerances on valve clearances otherwise you lose compression
Again, You can get on top if this, Mercedes are still running their cars the knowledge is there, but this might be tough nut to crack. Especially if You have to reengineer this without support from Mercedes.
I seem to recall that the system was not exactly designed for ease of maintenance more for high reliability, i.e. no screw adjusters but exchange of shims or even worse followers.

Rudolf

Would there be a problem having Mercedes restore the car, the ownership issue was sorted a long time ago and they restored the disputed Mercedes W154?
Presumably the main worry is whether they would maintain its patina - in which case it might make sense just to let them loose on the engine.

Would there be a problem having Mercedes restore the car, the ownership issue was sorted a long time ago and they restored the disputed Mercedes W154?
Presumably the main worry is whether they would maintain its patina - in which case it might make sense just to let them loose on the engine.

dunno
id go to C&G

if they did it, they could do trackside support later

Rudolf

I still find the whole business deplorable.

The National Motor Museum were given or loaned the car to display to the British public.
Not to flog at their earliest convenience...
...I know that this has been settled in court.
A British court has ruled in favor of a National British Institiution against a German business, no surprise there...

Rudolf

Understandable opinion, given a limited grasp of reality. Having checked I am assured this assertion is just twaddle.

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 26 March 2013 - 10:29.

Understandable opinion, given a limited grasp of reality. Having checked I am assured this assertion is just twaddle.

DCN

So can you give us any insight in how this episode of the car's history will be described in the catalog?

Edited by Wouter Melissen, 26 March 2013 - 11:44.

The more I think about it, the more I think that the 'right' answer would be if Daimler-Benz were to buy the car and bring it home to Stuttgart

Edited by D-Type, 26 March 2013 - 14:50.

So can you give us any insight in how this episode of the car's history will be described in the catalog?

Willing seller, willing buyer. And the sale helped provide a splendidly useful new libraries and lecture hall facility at the National Motor Museum, Beaulieu, supported by Mercedes-Benz and staffed by some extremely able and friendly people, from which and from whom generations draw real benefit.

DCN

The more I think about it, the more I think that the 'right' answer would be if Daimler-Benz were to buy the car and bring it home to Stuttgart

I'm of the other school - I think Daimler (which is apparently their name these days) already have enough W196s. Let someone else have one

Sebastian should buy it, and drive it in his 'normal' fashion........wonder how long he would last?

And isn't that what it was supposed to be?

It is a racing car. Even if it is never raced again ideally at least it should be able to go out and put in some laps at a decent pace to show the world what the car is. To do that the engine must work properly, run clean and not be on the pioint of detonation. If it loses 10% of its original power to do so is ok. Then it should run on a commercial fuel with the same volume as the original so the injection is not all confused.

Fuel shouldn't be that much of a problem to the injection system. The essentially similar 300SLR engine ran OK on pump petrol. Maybe the loss of internal cooling from the lack of alcohol might mean a bigger radiator or water pump though.

Maybe the loss of internal cooling from the lack of alcohol might mean a bigger radiator or water pump though.

De-tuning it slightly should get around that problem.

Fuel shouldn't be that much of a problem to the injection system. The essentially similar 300SLR engine ran OK on pump petrol. Maybe the loss of internal cooling from the lack of alcohol might mean a bigger radiator or water pump though.

If the fuel injection system is calibrated for alcohol it must use alcohol.Or petrol as the case maybe. From what I have read those things ran on some evil [alcohol?] concoction to make power, and special oils to match. Any metering works on the volume of fuel. Methanol [the most common alcohol fuel] is a LOT thicker than petrol. At a fair guess a modern fuel will do the job. But you have to find the right one to suit the calibration. You cant go to a MB dealer and buy a different set of nozzles! Then use oils to suit the fuel. It may lose a little power with less volatile fuel but if it runs clean and not too lean or rich should be serviceable. Meaning it will go fine without engine damage. That would be the most important thing.

I suspect when it ran at Lemans it was probably misfueled, hopefully too rich than lean.Petrol in a alcohol engine would be miles rich. If lean the engine may be very unwell.Or that rich will have 'washed ' bores and probably a lot of petrol in the oil.

Though a 60 y/o ignition may be a problem too. Though to adapt something modern there will be a lot simpler. Though I suspect a magneto which if good will be more than ok.

I am confident that care of the car from this point forward need not cause public concern...

DCN

I'm sure you're right, Doug. I hope it goes to someone who will enlist the outstanding talent that exists for the restoration and maintenance of great racing cars. In this instance I nominate Hall & Hall for the honour.

Don't count on much help from the factory. Not because they might demur, but rather because they haven't much in the way of spares. Back in the 1960s the then technical head of racing was short on storage space so he scrapped most of the W196 and 300SLR spares -- all that magnificent machinery went to the scrapyard. That's why the factory's W196 is running on a 300SLR engine -- when it runs at all -- betrayed by the extra bump in its bonnet.

Yes, I too wonder where that scrapyard was or is!

The comments about desmodromic valve gear are way off the mark. After looking at the 300SLR in the Henry Ford collection Travers and Coon came up with the Scarab's similar system, in concert with Leo Goossen -- but didn't copy the neat but complex way M-B adjusted the closing-finger clearance. The Scarabs started and ran but not so well as they could have at the time. Before his death Chuck Daigh went through the engine, found some incorrect settings and finally had it running sweetly with excellent power.

The comments about desmodromic valve gear are way off the mark. After looking at the 300SLR in the Henry Ford collection Travers and Coon came up with the Scarab's similar system, in concert with Leo Goossen -- but didn't copy the neat but complex way M-B adjusted the closing-finger clearance. The Scarabs started and ran but not so well as they could have at the time. Before his death Chuck Daigh went through the engine, found some incorrect settings and finally had it running sweetly with excellent power.

In retrospect doesn't that make you want to cry for RAI and their Scarab project? If they'd only had the promised power in period it could at least have earned respect within Formula 1. Such a bold and brave effort, just missed the boat by being months too late and short on development.

DCN

A couple more from Monaco 2000

Sadly Motor Sport have got it wrong! They repeat two myths in one sentencein their report on the car coming up for auction:

Chassis 00006/54 was one of two open-wheel W196s built at Fangio's request following his struggles placing the enclosed-bodied streamliner around Silverstone's oil drums at the 1954 British GP

The open wheeled car was always planned. It just wasn't ready for Silverstone.
The enclosed body would have presented no problems to the man who won at Sebring two years running! However the performance of his Continental tyres in the changing wet and damp conditions may have had something to do with it.

Edited by D-Type, 27 March 2013 - 21:39.

In retrospect doesn't that make you want to cry for RAI and their Scarab project? If they'd only had the promised power in period it could at least have earned respect within Formula 1. Such a bold and brave effort, just missed the boat by being months too late and short on development.

DCN

A day late, but not a dollar short.

Sadly Motor Sport have got it wrong! They repeat two myths in one sentencein their report on the car coming up for auction:
The open wheeled car was always planned. It just wasn't ready for Silverstone.
The enclosed body would have presented no problems to the man who won at Sebring two years running! However the performance of his Continental tyres in the changing wet and damp conditions may have had something to do with it.

Workload had delayed production of the open-wheeler cars. At Silverstone as Fangio himself recalled. he emphasised to Kosteletzky, Uhlenhaut and Neubauer his need for an open-wheeler variant to be ready for the Nurburgring. The driver's view from within a normal sports car body is one thing, the restricted 3/4 forward view from the W196 streamliner's cockpit is quite another. The blind area extends for some two metres or more beyond each front wing/fender bulge. In any case, Fangio personally assured me that he felt more at home within an open-wheeled single-seater than within a sports car, and much moreso than within the streamlined W196s. He also made a strong case for Moss's greater success in the Mercedes-Benz sports cars having been attributable mostly to fate. Fangio's fate was for fortune to smile upon him in Grand Prix cars, less so in sports cars. And he smiled his slow, knowing, smile. Would I doubt him?

DCN

When the word 'workload' comes into it, it's almost amazing that they didn't do the openwheeler first and leave the streamliner until they had time to build it...

The amount of bodywork involved, the extra supports to the chassis, the fiddling to get to engines, gearboxes and suspensions for maintenance or adjustments, one would reckon it would hardly be worth it.

Escept, of course, for the sheer uniqueness of the cars, the visual impact of them arriving on the scene.

... and the fact that their first race was going to be Rheims

Workload had delayed production of the open-wheeler cars. At Silverstone as Fangio himself recalled. he emphasised to Kosteletzky, Uhlenhaut and Neubauer his need for an open-wheeler variant to be ready for the Nurburgring. The driver's view from within a normal sports car body is one thing, the restricted 3/4 forward view from the W196 streamliner's cockpit is quite another. The blind area extends for some two metres or more beyond each front wing/fender bulge. In any case, Fangio personally assured me that he felt more at home within an open-wheeled single-seater than within a sports car, and much moreso than within the streamlined W196s. He also made a strong case for Moss's greater success in the Mercedes-Benz sports cars having been attributable mostly to fate. Fangio's fate was for fortune to smile upon him in Grand Prix cars, less so in sports cars. And he smiled his slow, knowing, smile. Would I doubt him?

DCN

................and so did Fangio reinforce this request by judiciuosly clipping a few track marker barrels, just to make his point?
Regarding the auction, be quite nice to see Moss driving it around London,, maybe up around Park lane, they could close the roads on a Sunday! Just an idle thought!

...and an interesting risk assessment.

DCN

A day late, but not a dollar short.

Not entirely correct. While Reventlow's mother was Barbara Hutton heir to Woolworth's and EF Hutton, Lance did not have unlimited access to funds. As time went on in the Scarab project, Ms. Hutton got more restrictive in her doling out dollars to Lance.

Before his death Chuck Daigh went through the engine, found some incorrect settings and finally had it running sweetly with excellent power.

I knew I'd read that somewhere. Didn't he discover something was amiss with the valve clearances and that they were set wrong. I'm not a wrench, nor mechanically inclined, but I'm pretty sure it had something to do with the valves.

Originally posted by David McKinney
... and the fact that their first race was going to be Rheims

And I guess they had the historical desire to begin their assault at Rheims...

However, for the reasons I've stated above, might they have been better prepared by doing their initial testing etc without the bodywork?

I think it would be fair to say that the decision to swamp the opposition at Rheims with the appearance of complexity and dominance was a costly venture. And could have been partly negated by going to Silverstone with the streamliners. It must also be that the time consumption of doing things that way put the whole programme behind.

Mercedes-Benz had three open-wheeled cars at the Nurburgring, only two weeks after Silverstone. Could they have had one of them ready for the British race? Perhaps their initial assessment was that the streamlined cars would be suitable for many more races than turned out to be the case. In 1955 they only used the streamlined cars at Monza. They didn't even take one to Spa, despite, or possibly because of, a lot of other experimentation with wheelbases and front brake position.

I knew I'd read that somewhere. Didn't he discover something was amiss with the valve clearances and that they were set wrong. I'm not a wrench, nor mechanically inclined, but I'm pretty sure it had something to do with the valves.

I think it was the valve timing.

With no disrespect to the above posters I have been told that it was a whit/euro/sae kinda mix up.
Its either this motor or the Gurney-Weslake V-12.
Or that Corvair Spyder that I destroyed in my personal 'rear view.'

I have no idea what Tipo is talking about. Can I have that in English, please?

I believe he's talking about different measurements , and someone not paying attention to the difference.

Word.

Workload had delayed production of the open-wheeler cars. At Silverstone as Fangio himself recalled. he emphasised to Kosteletzky, Uhlenhaut and Neubauer his need for an open-wheeler variant to be ready for the Nurburgring. The driver's view from within a normal sports car body is one thing, the restricted 3/4 forward view from the W196 streamliner's cockpit is quite another. The blind area extends for some two metres or more beyond each front wing/fender bulge. In any case, Fangio personally assured me that he felt more at home within an open-wheeled single-seater than within a sports car, and much moreso than within the streamlined W196s. He also made a strong case for Moss's greater success in the Mercedes-Benz sports cars having been attributable mostly to fate. Fangio's fate was for fortune to smile upon him in Grand Prix cars, less so in sports cars. And he smiled his slow, knowing, smile. Would I doubt him?

DCN

I always wonder how much of influence on this may have come from Karl Kling. Around 1949 there had been much discussions within Germany about the arising 'streamliner fashion'. While the leading journalist Ernst Hornickel was supported on his objections by most of the leading drivers (I remember in particular Hermann Lang), Karl Kling expressed his preferation of the streamliner and underlined this by winning one championship after the other (of course without any foreign competition). Also in 1950 he was the only to order his personal Veritas Meteor with a streamline bodywork, always backed by the Daimler company, so I am quite sure he brought that idea with him to the factory. As I understand Fangio was signed up into the factory team during 1953, so probably at a point when the concept for the W 196 had already been worked out and probably the production of the cars had already been started. Surely Fangio was the star driver in the team, but nevertheless I am not sure whether he had already enough influence on the technical side of the team initially to enforce the open wheelers, when Kling did perhaps have two or three years to convince Neubauer and Uhlenhaut of the advantages of a streamliner layout. So maybe Fangio took the occasion after Silverstone to make his point more clear.

So maybe Fangio took the occasion after Silverstone to make his point more clear.

I believe this certainly to have been the case, Fangio and Kling apparently both pressing the absolute requirement for an open-wheeler in time for Nurburgring, to Neubauer and Uhlenhaut in their hotel the night of the first practice session at Silverstone in which they had been slithering around barrel-bashing. The hotel was aptly named the Five Arrows and it was in a village whose name I forget right now, outside Aylesbury. Interesting point about Kling's personal liking for streamliners.

DCN

Although the open-wheeled version only appeared for the Nurburgring race, I understood that it had always been planned, eg the form of the chassis frame and no mechanical components in the space between the wheels. Mercedes-Benz thoroughness being what it is, the design would, as a minimum, have been developed on paper. I also thought it was a simple misjudgement that they felt the streamliner more suited to Silverstone.

Now I'm beginning to wonder. If the open-wheelr was planned, fabrication of long lead items would have commenced before Reims. Again, with Mercedes-Benz thoroughness, had the open-wheelers been ready - and fully tested - they would have taken both types to Silverstone (as they did later) . Looking at the dates: Reims 4th July, Silverstone 17th July and Nurburgring 1st August, given the resources they had available it is just possible that D-B could have started to put the open-wheelers together after Silverstone in a fortnight but I think it's highly unlikely that they did so.

To me, the most probable scenario is they initially were developing both cars in parallel but concentrated on getting fully race ready streamliners ready for Reims and the open-wheeler was second priority. After Fangio and Kling bent the ears of Neubauer and Uhlenhaut at Silverstone it is feasible that the programme was accelerated.

Uechtel's point about Kling preferring streamliners is interesting. In Germany there was significant knowledge and tradition in streamliners dating back to before the war. For example, the Adler, BMW and Wanderer sports cars had all-enveloping bodies when most of the opposition still had cycle wings. Also the Avus and record-breaking versions of Auto Union and Mercedes-Benz Grand Prix cars. Then postwar there were several cars, often dual purpose sports and racing cars, with streamlined bodies: Veritas, EMW, and other BMW 328 derived cars and the Petermax Muller, Glockler's Ramelow-designed car and other VW-based cars.VW-based cars. So the knowledge base was there and with hindsight it is not that surprising that the Mercedes appeared with an all enveloping body.

I believe this certainly to have been the case, Fangio and Kling apparently both pressing the absolute requirement for an open-wheeler in time for Nurburgring, to Neubauer and Uhlenhaut in their hotel the night of the first practice session at Silverstone in which they had been slithering around barrel-bashing. The hotel was aptly named the Five Arrows and it was in a village whose name I forget right now, outside Aylesbury. Interesting point about Kling's personal liking for streamliners.

DCN

Judging by the mighty cheer from the crowd, when Kling spun off on the exit of Copse, there were a lot of people very pleased that the open wheelers werent at Silverstone in 54!.

The hotel was aptly named the Five Arrows and it was in a village whose name I forget right now, outside Aylesbury. Interesting point about Kling's personal liking for streamliners.

http://www.thefivear...o.uk/index.html

Waddesdon! That's the feller. Thanks Alan.

DCN

Willing seller, willing buyer.
DCN

But was / is not the question: did the willing seller own what he was selling?

If the willing seller was Mercedes-Benz...

Interesting point about Kling's personal liking for streamliners.

Translation from his memories (Karl Kling / Günter Molter: Jagd nach dem Sieg):
"Then we went for the Nürburgring where the first automobile race after the war was scheduled. [...] Interesting was the fact, that the Veritas with its streamline body [...] was regarded ideal for fast tracks, but was critically estimated on twisty circuits. The reason was that on conventional sports cars the wheels are positioned free to the airstream [...]. So the driver is always able to watch the wheels. On twisty courses he can exactly aim at the corners and so take them with maximum effect. The ponton body of the Veritas does not allow to view the wheels, which are hidden beneath the body, just like the whole chassis. Therefore one can aim at the corner only by extimation. At that time it was believed, that the drivers of the Veritas cars would have to take much higher risks if they wanted to be quick. But already on the first practise laps I found out that this theory was strongly over-rated. My opponent, Willi Krakau, did drive his fastest lap with 114.5 km/h with his BMW with Intertyp body [...] by I myself won the race with an average of 113.6 km/h and by douing this I even did not have to go to the limits of my car.
Today the advantage of a streamline full enveloping body is no longer questioned. Such is used for all modern sports car models. The advantage on the straights against open wheel cars, on which the wheels cause disturbing of the airstream, can not be neglected. The wheels are more stressed on pontons, which is clear, as they are not exposed to the airstream, so that the heat can not be transmitted to the air. But the tyre industry has made huge advance in the meantime and the newest tyre models can sustain loads that we could not even think of in 1949"

My edition of that book is from 1954 and it covers Kling´s career until the German GP, so this is interesting that Kling is still expressing favour for the streamline in this passage, while on the story for the British GP he writes, that it had been intended to use the open wheel monoposto at Silverstone there, but the new cars were not ready in time, so that they had to use the streamliners, which were in disadvantage on this circuit. So I think the first text passage I quoted above may have been written before the begin of the season or maybe around the time of the French GP, while the latter passage has been added later.

If the willing seller was Mercedes-Benz...

My point precisely.

Earlier in the thread it was alledged - nay stated - that the Museum sold the car without the permission of the owner (MB) and to that owner's dismay. Then later in the thread it is stated that when the matter went before the (British) court that court ruled 'surprise, surprise' in the museum's favour, the clear implication being that the judgement was not only flawed but biased. The inference that I (and, it is presumably intended, others) draw from that is that ownership of the car was less than clear-cut and universally agreed, even after the court judgement. Then we have Doug weighing-in with 'only by those with no grip on reality' (or words to that effect) which while firm, not to say dismissive, hardly clarifies the issue.

My perfectly innocent, unloaded, question was simply to seek that clarification. It appears from all that has been written here that the willing seller was not Mercedes-Benz, but the museum. That the museum then spent the proceeds worthily is hardly relevant to the question did they, or did they not, have the right to sell the car in the first place?

Given that the matter went to court one may safely assume that others who believed themselves the rightful owners thought not.

How clear might we need to make it? The car in question -00006/54 - was donated by Daimler-Benz to the recently reconstituted NMM in 1973, replacing car '14 which had previously been displayed in the Montagu Motor Museum at Beaulieu from as early as 1959, on loan. This 1973 donation was absolutely confirmed to me by Daimler-Benz, in Stuttgart, last week, and D-B is being extremely supportive of Bonhams' forthcoming sale of the car by auction at Goodwood.

DCN

I do not really want to get involved in this argument, but I am sure that ensign 14 or John Aston will clarify the point. Surely it all centres on whether it was a "gift without reservation", ie the recipient is free to do with as he/she might wish, with no strings or caveats attached, the giver/previous owner thereby surrendering all/any title. This will be familiar to anyone trying to sort their affairs against the iniquitous inheritance tax. A gift with reservations is a different matter, often known as encumbered, as those familiar with charities' grants and funding will know, ie the funds are given for a specific purpose only. For another example of the gift without reservations think of the house on Mustique given by Princess Margaret to her son, Viscount Linley, iwho later sold it. His to do with as he saw fit.
Roger Lund

If you find yourself starting a post with "I do not really want to get involved in this argument, but ...", it may be time to get a coffee and come back later.

If you find yourself starting a post with "I do not really want to get involved in this argument, but ...", it may be time to get a coffee and come back later.

Which is precisely why I did not bother to make any comments earlier in what clearly had the makings of a circular argument.
RL