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Pikes Peak 2013

Started by MatsNorway , May 27 2013 18:01

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143 replies to this topic

#51 gruntguru

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 06:49

LOVE IT!

Can't afford wind tunnel testing? No worries, use CFD.
Can't do CFD? No worries, copy some aero you saw on the net.

I hope that pic is from PP. I just love the thought that weekend racers can build something like that and bring it!

#52 MatsNorway

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 08:47

LOVE IT!

Can't afford wind tunnel testing? No worries, use CFD.
Can't do CFD? No worries, copy some aero you saw on the net.

I hope that pic is from PP. I just love the thought that weekend racers can build something like that and bring it!

It is. Cody Loveland. owner of Lovefab. If you missed it you can see the barebone chassie doing some running in a link above.

Note that he uses the same wing this year as last year but have in the picture removed the top wing. I posted hes old car in the diffuser porn thread.

Make sure you post your top 10 or 5 during practice.

Edited by MatsNorway, 21 June 2013 - 08:48.

#53 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 09:01

I feel all this emphasis on aero is wasted. A big wing and splitter should help, but remember most of the cornering is fairly low speed with all those hairpins so maybe the drag will defeat the object anyway. From the little I have seen of last years event on You Tube mechanical grip and a fair degree of supple suspension, plus some ride height is going to beat any aero.
Probably why the Porker did so well. Point and squirt which those things do well. though I bet the springing was a good bit softer than they use on road courses.
From the little I have seen of time attack cars they are too busy building spoilers and ginormous wheels and tyres too go back to basics of an event like that. It may be all tar but still bumpy, twisty and undulating with still I suspect a fair bit of dirt and crap off line.

#54 MatsNorway

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 09:50

I feel all this emphasis on aero is wasted. A big wing and splitter should help, but remember most of the cornering is fairly low speed with all those hairpins so maybe the drag will defeat the object anyway. From the little I have seen of last years event on You Tube mechanical grip and a fair degree of supple suspension, plus some ride height is going to beat any aero.
Probably why the Porker did so well. Point and squirt which those things do well. though I bet the springing was a good bit softer than they use on road courses.
From the little I have seen of time attack cars they are too busy building spoilers and ginormous wheels and tyres too go back to basics of an event like that. It may be all tar but still bumpy, twisty and undulating with still I suspect a fair bit of dirt and crap off line.

I totally disagree. And pikes peak is not so slow. Yes a couple of hairpins on the top but most of the track is fast.

the Nemo racing evo dominated so much. They have a total of 2500kg of downforce. And not the wildest engine. 2G in the corners on street legal tires.

It all matters and wasting a ton on dampers for 0.2sec when wings and stuff gives you 1sec for less cash you ofc do that instead.

Edited by MatsNorway, 21 June 2013 - 09:50.

#55 munks

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 19:46

One must also not forget that both downforce and drag helps in the braking zones for slow corners. Yes you'll gain more overall time in a high-speed corner, but it's not like downforce is useless in low-speed corners.

#56 Fondles

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 20:28

I totally disagree. And pikes peak is not so slow. Yes a couple of hairpins on the top but most of the track is fast.

I'll have to disagree as well, but for the reason that the cars are operating in much thinner air than at sea level. I guess about only 60% pressure so the wings & other aero devices have to be much larger to have the same effect. True enough there is not a great benefit from them on the low-speed corners but the entire track is now bitumen and so has higher speeds than previous years.

#57 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 23:50

One must also not forget that both downforce and drag helps in the braking zones for slow corners. Yes you'll gain more overall time in a high-speed corner, but it's not like downforce is useless in low-speed corners.

Those huge wings drag, and to get the low speed corner downforce, and is going to slow you in a straight line big time unless you have huge power. Yes there is fast bits, straights, but not many fast corners but quite a lot of slow and lower medium speed corners.

#58 kikiturbo2

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:56

One thing I find fascinating is the incledible time frame in which Peugeot built the pikes peak special. It was done in a matter of a few months, using a development of an engine that is based on their block but they did not use before.

At the same time, peugeot sport was developing the 208 R5 rally car, did development on a 208 gti that won it's class in nurburgring 24h, built quite a few of the 208 R2 and RCZ cup cars for clients... Now, that is some work for a "sport" operation of a manufacturer that is supposedly not that interested in sport..

#59 MatsNorway

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 18:51

Why do they run smaller front tire when there is no tire limitations?

Edited by MatsNorway, 22 June 2013 - 19:04.

#60 MatsNorway

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 19:10

A time attack team talking about the build quite nice look into some things.

#61 MatsNorway

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 19:14

#62 MatsNorway

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 19:27

#63 gruntguru

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 23:19

I feel all this emphasis on aero is wasted. A big wing and splitter should help, but remember most of the cornering is fairly low speed with all those hairpins so maybe the drag will defeat the object anyway.

You are at least 20 years out of touch. Take the drive across to Werribee this December for FSAE-A and watch Monash negotiate the very slow course, faster than most with 50hp and massive wings.

The optimum setup for ANY CAR will include some aero. As long as L/D is great than one - every time you add more power to a setup, it will need more aero to optimise it.

Edited by gruntguru, 22 June 2013 - 23:26.

#64 Bob Riebe

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 05:35

ARRRHHHHH, I think it is time for some anti-ugly rules.

#65 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:25

ARRRHHHHH, I think it is time for some anti-ugly rules.

If it was finished properly it would look 100% better. That bodywork looks like the mould! Ugly side out.

#66 Tony Matthews

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:55

I did wonder if DHP Composites would be happy to have the 'Duct Tape Special' in front of their logo...

#67 MatsNorway

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:12

Whats the point of a stubby nose when you have that huge front lip. If you could have had a nice slope and still generated downforce? does this generate more downforce? it sure does give more drag.

#68 MatsNorway

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 08:13

Edited by MatsNorway, 23 June 2013 - 08:14.

#69 Kelpiecross

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 14:05

What about the old Brabham F1 "biplane" type of wings? - seemed very effective if maybe a little fragile.

Maybe the PP hillclimb should ban all wings and ground effects etc.?

#70 Magoo

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 14:30

I feel all this emphasis on aero is wasted. A big wing and splitter should help, but remember most of the cornering is fairly low speed with all those hairpins so maybe the drag will defeat the object anyway. From the little I have seen of last years event on You Tube mechanical grip and a fair degree of supple suspension, plus some ride height is going to beat any aero.

It's a simple matter of plan area. A Piper Cub can take off at 35 mph.

#71 MatsNorway

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 19:47

Mark Rennison from last years run: this thing moves.

Movie from this year. I think im going to rate him higher now.

Note the still shots and the trickery aero going on underneath. Gone is the massive wing. Its starting to look like F1. Don`t need the wing we got so much downforce from the tunnels alone.

http://instagram.com/p/Z-h8qdGeNB/

Edited by MatsNorway, 23 June 2013 - 20:04.

#72 MatsNorway

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 14:26

http://www.youtube.c...rlzyfbzFk7u-Wkg

Those RS200 cars really goes!

Edited by MatsNorway, 25 June 2013 - 15:58.

#73 MatsNorway

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 17:52

http://jalopnik.com/...action_ref_map=[]

Cody loveland is out allready.

#74 MatsNorway

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 19:29

Pat doran also went of.
Posted Image

#75 MatsNorway

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 20:30

The Evasive FR-S got bumped up to unlimited for some reason so i think it will be within the top 10.
Posted Image

#76 MatsNorway

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 12:29

Since Pat Doran crashed it is it likely that due to the size of the intercooler intake, the rear wing loses downforce due to the increased turbulence as the speed goes up? The rear wing is far from in clean air.
Posted Image

Edited by MatsNorway, 26 June 2013 - 12:30.

#77 MatsNorway

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 18:57

"After a mechanical breakage going into a corner causing the car to leave the road, I decided enough was enough, someone upstairs is telling us it's not our year. The team have worked really hard and could get the car ready for another run tomorrow but the car is just not balanced and I can't give it the commitment you need to be on the podium. We know what we've got to do to compete with the top guys and we will start with that as soon as we get back. Sorry to let all my friends, families and sponsor's down but you have to know when to step back."

#78 GodHimself

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 21:19

That car looks like a joke. :lol:

Have they actually tested these concepts in a windtunnel, using cfd or I don't know ... by applying common sense? The last option should be relatively cheapest.
Also, looking at the video, Pat could do with some driving classes (look at his hands...)

#79 mariner

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 16:26

At the risk of being contraversial US based teams don't seem very good at developing road racing cars. Historically they have usually bought in from Europe to be competitive.

There ARE some notable exceptions - Chapparal, Eagle and, in FF for a while, Swift. I've been wondering why US teams don't seem to be able to do successful road racing designs given the large total amout of road racing in the USA.

I think one answer may be lack of really top quality US road racing drivers. Dan Gurney was obviously an exception and he did the Eagles. Jim Hall was not at Dan's level but he did run in F1. So both Eagle and Chapparal had a test driver who could really test the car and knew what a realy competiive car should be like.

They were like Jack Brabham, Bruce McLaren and , to some degree even Colin Chapman.

No offence to the PP amateurs but I question if any of them are good enough to have an absolute level of judgement to sort the car.

Its hard to do once event a year where you not able test properly and be anything like competitive. Peugeot have years of race and rally experince to draw on.

So I agree its great that amateurs can compete in same class but it reminds me of the old Canam - the top few teams were far,far ahead of the amatuer competition

None of that detracts from the joy of having a go on such a course.

#80 Bob Riebe

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 19:43

At the risk of being contraversial US based teams don't seem very good at developing road racing cars. Historically they have usually bought in from Europe to be competitive.

There ARE some notable exceptions - Chapparal, Eagle and, in FF for a while, Swift. I've been wondering why US teams don't seem to be able to do successful road racing designs given the large total amout of road racing in the USA.

I think one answer may be lack of really top quality US road racing drivers. Dan Gurney was obviously an exception and he did the Eagles. Jim Hall was not at Dan's level but he did run in F1. So both Eagle and Chapparal had a test driver who could really test the car and knew what a realy competiive car should be like.

They were like Jack Brabham, Bruce McLaren and , to some degree even Colin Chapman.

No offence to the PP amateurs but I question if any of them are good enough to have an absolute level of judgement to sort the car.

Its hard to do once event a year where you not able test properly and be anything like competitive. Peugeot have years of race and rally experince to draw on.

So I agree its great that amateurs can compete in same class but it reminds me of the old Canam - the top few teams were far,far ahead of the amatuer competition

None of that detracts from the joy of having a go on such a course.

Ignorance is bliss and you are a very happy person.

You are making judgements on something your rhetoric says you know nothing about.

Road racing was always a second class citizen in the U.S. til the Can-Am or more importantly the Trans-Am putting on the map.

There were hundreds of small tracks across the U.S. that held sprint and stock car races. THAT is where the heart of U.S. racing was and actually still is.

Edited by Bob Riebe, 28 June 2013 - 19:48.

#81 mariner

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:39

Bob, I am aware of where the heart of US racing lies. I'm big sprint car fan and Ive followed late model stocks and eastern pavement modifieds for a long time.

I know that the SCCA stuf is second level versus all the oval stuf which is why I said " in total".

My point really was that it takes good, highly experienced drivers to bring on a car design to its best and PP is now more akin to a road race or tarmac rally where the non US teams have the driver edge.

#82 carlt

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 10:38

My point really was that it takes good, highly experienced drivers to bring on a car design to its best and PP is now more akin to a road race or tarmac rally where the non US teams have the driver edge.

one of them with arguably the best ever driver at this game - and at the peak of his prowess

#83 GodHimself

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 14:36

Speaking of whom: http://sundayafterno...f-sundays-race/

This guy really is special. A living legend. :clap:

#84 MatsNorway

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 18:51

http://www.youtube.c...eature=youtu.be

Pat Doran chanced hes mind.

#85 MatsNorway

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 19:40

Unlimited competitor with CV gearbox and R1 engine with i believe turbo power.
https://fbcdn-sphoto...405396400_n.jpg

#86 MatsNorway

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 19:44

Picture of the day.
https://sphotos-a.xx...904879964_o.jpg

Edited by MatsNorway, 29 June 2013 - 19:44.

#87 MatsNorway

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 13:53

Livestream: http://live.redbull....ill-climb-2013/

My top 5 picks for Unlimited:

1. Sebastian Loeb
2. Romain Dumas
3. Rhys Millen
4. Spencer Steele
5. Jean-Philippe Dayraut

Edited by MatsNorway, 30 June 2013 - 14:58.

#88 GVera

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 17:38

Loeb 8:13.878

Edited by GVera, 30 June 2013 - 18:22.

#89 MatsNorway

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 18:08

Very impressive. Can`t wait for the onboards. That car is brutal.

Mark Rennison surprisingly also beat Spencer steele for a fourth place so far so that is very good. That underbody aero probably did the trick. I do not expect Pat Doran to beat that.

Edited by MatsNorway, 30 June 2013 - 18:09.

#90 MatsNorway

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 19:00

Paul Dallenbach beat Spencer Steele in the old car with a time attack car.

#91 MatsNorway

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 19:49

Where are the testing results from this years Pikes Peak posted ?
I reckon an electric car will make the top five this year.

1 208 Unlimited 1 Sebastien Loeb 8:13.878 87.471 1:28.448 1:59.765 2:23.261 2:22.404 Velizy FRA
2 67 Unlimited 2 Rhys Millen 9:02.192 79.677 1:36.636 2:09.864 2:36.763 2:38.929 San Juan Capistrano CA
3 3 Unlimited 3 Jean-Philippe Dayraut 9:42.740 74.133 1:41.050 2:16.171 2:41.579 3:03.940 Montrabe FRA
4 98 Time Attack 1 Paul Dallenbach 9:46.001 73.720 1:44.806 2:22.767 2:47.980 2:50.448 Basalt CO
5 1 Electric 1 Nobuhiro Tajima 9:46.530 73.654 1:46.281 2:20.368 2:48.194 2:51.687 Shibuya-ku JPN

Congrats, you called it. You where a little bit lucky mind you. Romain Dumas had a DNF and some rain might have made it tricky for time attack and the last unlimiteds. Im now assuming the rain stopped.

Edited by MatsNorway, 30 June 2013 - 19:52.

#92 scolbourne

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 04:47

1 208 Unlimited 1 Sebastien Loeb 8:13.878 87.471 1:28.448 1:59.765 2:23.261 2:22.404 Velizy FRA
2 67 Unlimited 2 Rhys Millen 9:02.192 79.677 1:36.636 2:09.864 2:36.763 2:38.929 San Juan Capistrano CA
3 3 Unlimited 3 Jean-Philippe Dayraut 9:42.740 74.133 1:41.050 2:16.171 2:41.579 3:03.940 Montrabe FRA
4 98 Time Attack 1 Paul Dallenbach 9:46.001 73.720 1:44.806 2:22.767 2:47.980 2:50.448 Basalt CO
5 1 Electric 1 Nobuhiro Tajima 9:46.530 73.654 1:46.281 2:20.368 2:48.194 2:51.687 Shibuya-ku JPN

Congrats, you called it. You where a little bit lucky mind you. Romain Dumas had a DNF and some rain might have made it tricky for time attack and the last unlimiteds. Im now assuming the rain stopped.

Next year I reckon an electric car will make the top three. Almost 4th this year ,missing by half a second.

#93 gruntguru

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:32

A truly dominant performance by Loeb/Peugeot. Just shows what can happen when big-auto/big-dollars get involved.

Anyone care to guess what time a top F1 car would do?

My $0.02 says 7:55. (Tried to think of a number under 8:00)

Edited by gruntguru, 01 July 2013 - 06:36.

#94 MatsNorway

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:13

Next year I reckon an electric car will make the top three. Almost 4th this year ,missing by half a second.

Perhaps it happens. But thats because there is more PR in electric class now it seems. If more Privateer teams with properly developed cars that has done development on things like diffusers there will be lots of sub 9.40 times next year.

Main issue is the drivers. Paul Dallenbach showed us how much a driver matters on the mountain as he went fourth in a simple time attack car with only 2WD.

A truly dominant performance by Loeb/Peugeot. Just shows what can happen when big-auto/big-dollars get involved.

Anyone care to guess what time a top F1 car would do?

Indeed.

How much slower is a prototype than a F1 car in percent?

Whatever it is im thinking half that.

I think the Pug would beat a Prototype on most slow to mid fast tracks.

Edited by MatsNorway, 01 July 2013 - 09:14.

#95 kikiturbo2

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:41

Next year I reckon an electric car will make the top three. Almost 4th this year ,missing by half a second.

I think that due to a quite a large number of hairpins, you really need 4wd to be competitive... However, it would be interesting to see what that pug would look like without the marketing restraints on vehicle shape..

#96 pugfan

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:48

A truly dominant performance by Loeb/Peugeot. Just shows what can happen when big-auto/big-dollars get involved.

Anyone care to guess what time a top F1 car would do?

My $0.02 says 7:55. (Tried to think of a number under 8:00)

Personally I think it would be slower. Not a comprehensive list but:

Against the F1:
No turbocharger
Smaller floor area/heavily restricted aero
Less power
More drag (probably not balanced by smaller frontal area?)
2WD

For the F1:
Better brakes
Lower c of g.

I'd hate to bet against an F1 but the lack of turbo would be enough I reckon.

Edited by pugfan, 01 July 2013 - 10:49.

#97 Magoo

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 11:04

MatsNorway, you have single-handedly revived my interest in Pikes Peak. Thanks, I'll see if I can get there next year.

#98 WhiteBlue

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 13:28

Personally I think it would be slower. Not a comprehensive list but:

Against the F1:
No turbocharger
Smaller floor area/heavily restricted aero
Less power
More drag (probably not balanced by smaller frontal area?)
2WD

For the F1:
Better brakes
Lower c of g.

I'd hate to bet against an F1 but the lack of turbo would be enough I reckon.

You also have to add that F1 cars only reach the proper performance with very small ride height because the diffusor contributes a lot of the downforce. For that concept to work you have to run the car very low which isn't feasible at PP.

#99 Powersteer

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 14:14

peugeot 405 turbo 16 was transverse mid-rear mounted engine. think it also had 4 wheel steering too.

:cool:

#100 WhiteBlue

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Posted 01 July 2013 - 16:35

peugeot 405 turbo 16 was transverse mid-rear mounted engine. think it also had 4 wheel steering too.

Yes Peugeot made a 2 L 4-cyl. 600 bhp turbo "Pikes Peak" edition of the 405 turbo 16 with all wheel drive in 1992 after the group B times. That car was probably the inspiration for the 2013 project.

http://www.youtube.c...LnXzAwHVc#at=96

watch the video on youtube

http://www.arivatane...pikes-peak.html

Read Ari Vatanen on his experience going up the hill and rallying with Jean Todt.

Edited by WhiteBlue, 01 July 2013 - 16:56.

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