pirelli threatening to quit F1 at the end of 2013

But the FIA can do that - on grounds of safety, that always has been possible.

EDIT: But that's not the point, izzit? The point is that Pirelli is threatening to quit F1 and some posters are applauding that... with which, methinks, they are vastly underestimating how messed up the tyre and rules-situation is WITHOUT Pirelli, testgate andsoforth...

for that to happen Pirelli have to request it. But as we have found out in the last week Pirelli DON'T WANT IT. They don't want to do a big test, they want small individual tests with 1 car per test.

and for good reasons too, look at yesterday, even freely giving sets of test tires doesn't do jack ****, each team runs individual tests, sometimes giving rookies chance (which i'm not saying is bad), but rookies won't push,will they???

then there is the issue of weather, and most importantly, teams willingness to use those sets as they know they won't race on those.


also bare in mind the cost associated with making/transporting all those sets and then having a bad weather session.

i still firmly believe that pirelli should've bought the HRT's.

and for good reasons too, look at yesterday, even freely giving sets of test tires doesn't do jack ****, each team runs individual tests, sometimes giving rookies chance (which i'm not saying is bad), but rookies won't push,will they???

then there is the issue of weather, and most importantly, teams willingness to use those sets as they know they won't race on those.


also bare in mind the cost associated with making/transporting all those sets and then having a bad weather session.

i still firmly believe that pirelli should've bought the HRT's.

To be replaced by what, Michelin cheese tyres? the FIA brief will remain the same, whoever is building the tyres.

If Pirelli need to test they can book a cicuit a couple of days after a race, bring a couple of trucks of tyres and let the teams evaluate them. And stick one FIA scrutineer in each garage to enforce "park ferme" in the test, ie to ensure teams don't run their own component tests, they run Pirelli tests. But Pirelli don't want that, they said so. No big tests, we just want to test with one car.

and the cost of the test will be carried out by ... ???

that's something Pirelli and the teams can sort out, but since it would be a Pirelli test Pirelli would cover the bulk of the cost. Isn't that what we are told happens when Pirelli runs one car be it a Lotus or an ex-Toyota?

it's a different thing, running a Pirelli tyre test, and a different thing abandoning your race prep during a race weekend to do work for Pirelli. Surely you understand that ? Pirelli gave out prototypes of the 2013 tyres in Brazil last year. Do you seriously think Red Bull and Ferrari put the championship on hold for FP1 so they could gather data for Pirelli?

If Pirelli need to test they can book a cicuit a couple of days after a race, bring a couple of trucks of tyres and let the teams evaluate them. And stick one FIA scrutineer in each garage to enforce "park ferme" in the test, ie to ensure teams don't run their own component tests, they run Pirelli tests. But Pirelli don't want that, they said so. No big tests, we just want to test with one car.

It's difficult when the teams and tyre suppliers are saying there's no safety issue though.

Clearly there's an issue with using a 2013 Merc. But just saying 'they should do all their testing with 10 teams' is naive in the extreme.

It is quite simple really.

Ask Pirelli how many tests they need together with the dates and the places of the tests.

Ask the teams which ones are willing to lend cars and drivers. Between these you draw which ones are gonna test when and where. Make sure you have FIA personnel in every test to guarantee that teams are not testing anything else and all data are going solely to Pirelli.

So how many single team tests did Bridgestone run between 2007 and 2010? And that included a huge change in the tyres, grooved to slicks. The had a trouble race (Nurburgring 2007 where F1 cars could barely keep the pace of the pace car due to how wet it was). Did they scamper off to Mugello with a 2007 Ferrari to test?

I think it's far more naive to take every PR spin Hembery puts on everything as gospel.

So how many single team tests did Bridgestone run between 2007 and 2010? And that included a huge change in the tyres, grooved to slicks. The had a trouble race (Nurburgring 2007 where F1 cars could barely keep the pace of the pace car due to how wet it was). Did they scamper off to Mugello with a 2007 Ferrari to test?

I think it's far more naive to take every PR spin Hembery puts on everything as gospel.

they have tried that and all they could agree on was to propose 2010 LotusF1 car ... and even then now they accuse LotusF1 of gaining advantage (yes, with a car that has F-duct). so good luck with that.

I've said it before and I will say it again: why oh why did the FIA not organise a tyre-test itself? Why try to leave it over to the teams and Pirelli? It's like I write a letter to the council asking if I can build a wall in my garden. And the council writes back" 'Sure, but be sure that your neighbours are okay about it.'

That would be naive too.
But you don't address the points I made.
What I'm saying is not about Merc or Pirelli - it's about how you control variables in order to gain useful data. If you understand how that works you won't suggest running 10 team tests simultaneously is a good way to go.

Bridgestone had a wealth of data to draw on, and didn't have the brief Pirelli have.
I've no idea how many single-team tests they conducted though - maybe you can enlighten me.

So they didn't tried that. They tried a completely different approach that was giving an old car from a single team for them to test.

Hi eronrules, don't take it personally, I'm not picking at you, just choosing your post, because it makes some points worth to comment on.

- it has been said before, and is nothing new or earthshaking, but the current situation really reflects the "state of the affairs" in F1
- no one gives a s.... about the sport, everyone is just busy gutting it for their own petty reasons/advantage
- people seem unable or at least unwilling to find a solution, their is no constructive dialog, just threats and fist banging
- while all the "doctors" still argue ad nausea about what is right and what is wrong, the patient (F1) will possibly die, then after the fact everyone will be so sorry

- as for the tire testing at the GP
- IMHO it would take little to make it worthwhile, no big drama
- yes the weather is always a risk, but their has been a risk of rain during the Barcelona test as well, then Pirelli would have had all the cost, the risk of exposure/bad PR and no benefit either
- I understand while the teams are not keen to waste any of their limited track time for some "tyre testing" while they try to get through their programs, that's pretty predictable
- but their is a easy and relative cheap fix for this, declare another 20-40 min test session, only "prototype tyres" can be used, everyone gets 1-2 sets for each car and go.
- if costs are so much a concern, you can even limit the number of laps if they feel like, 30 laps or whatever one sees fit.
- no one is forces to participate, but I'm reasonable sure, most people would run.
- the costs for all involved would be minimal (compared to any other form of testing) and some real advances could be made, do this at 5 GP's a year, will give ample data to develop tyres

- I'm not sure, that transporting these extra tyres would cost that much (more) compared to rent a GP track and all the associated costs for Pirelli (or any manufacturer)
- yes the teams will have some additional running costs, but that's what happens anyway if you actually run/test a car, I don't think that 30 min extra running on a weekend would break the bank
- the spectators on a Friday, who parted with their hard earned cash for a ticket, get some for running to see, no a bad thing either - IMHO

- While buying the HRT car would have been a possibility, I'm not sure it would "help" them (Pirelli) all that much, just another car which is 3-4 sec off the pace
- I'm not 100% convinced that P.H.'s 4 sec off the pace claim for a old(ish) F1 car, holds much water either
- seeing that the engine and drive train is basically similar/the same, and that no restrictions in form of rules apply, you can make that thing as fast as you choose, and create any downforce/load profile
you like, sure it would require some effort, but nothing the world has never seen.

- if Pirelli decides to "walk away" or get "kicked out", FIA would not only need to find a replacement for F1, GP2 and GP3 would be most likely affected by such a move as well.
- every potential replacement manufacturer, if there is any, holds a very strong hand, and it get's stronger by the day.
- would be /will be interesting to see, how much teams will have to pay for a tyre supply deal and how much extra cost the manufacturer would need to spend on marketing (track signage, Paddock club etc.)
- maybe not many people will be smiling if they learn that their next years tyre deal cost them 3+ Mill $ instead of 1Mill$ (or whatever the going rate is)
- I can't see anyone coming in just "for the love of the sport" and is going to p..... money away in subsidizing a tyre supply with their own money.
- I think the argument that MICHELIN would only come if their is competition is overstated, they do many series as single supplier (Porsche Cup, WSR etc.), but I can't see them coming in, spending their own money, just to be in F1. I'm sure they would come, if it makes economical sense to do so. Not sure, if this makes economical sense for the teams too.
- all in all F1 doesn't seems to be "sexy" at the moment, manufacturers (tyres and other) don't seem to scramble into a mad rush to be part of it at any cost , the powers to be, may should work on this one

Since Pirelli doesn't have access to 2014 cars, and as per Hembery the Mercedes test was for 2014 tyres, running on one car is far more destructive than running on 10.

What does that even mean?

Q. Do you think Pirelli - or any tyre manufacturer - have the resources to run 10 tests simultaneously?

That really is yes / no. And the answer really is blindingly obvious.

I think you probably widely overestimate the complexity of tyre test ... Pirelli have a sheet of paper with weights and target loads it gives to the car engineer (team supplied even in the 2010 Lotus case) who chooses a setup that would best approximate the Pirelli requirement. Then Pirelli engineers collect data from the ECU. The same process (minus Pirelli setting the load parameters) happens every single grand prix weekend with 22 cars. The "resources" in terms of personnel are there, Pirelli doesn't run any special rigs on the cars to require more resources. All the resources it needs are the cars and the Pirelli engineers that are already in place in every team garage to evaluate and obtain the raw data.

Duplicate 1000 km test with each team? When, where, who pays for gazzilions of tires, time, security, etc., nevermind WHY is it necessary? World is going insane, methinks.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 09 June 2013 - 08:58.

Dont let the door hit you on the way out, Pirelli!

So where is the line of replacements?

Edited by Sakae, 09 June 2013 - 10:57.

This. Anyone who thinks that changing supplier will change how race looks like is blind. Pirelli could easly pull off 2008 Bridgestone tyres.

Btw you people whine about cheese tyres, yet they talk about 2 pit stop Canada or even possible 1 stop... CANADA guys.

What do you think about FIA defining common tyre spec and every team able to look for a suitable supplier as long as the tyres conform to those specs?

What do you think about FIA defining common tyre spec and every team able to look for a suitable supplier as long as the tyres conform to those specs?

EDIT: But that's not the point, izzit? The point is that Pirelli is threatening to quit F1 and some posters are applauding that... with which, methinks, they are vastly underestimating how messed up the tyre and rules-situation is WITHOUT Pirelli, testgate andsoforth...

I think today, as I do for some time now, that this would be an interesting experiment worthy trying it out.

It would be, if it was at all feasible.
It costs a lot of time and money to develop F1 tyres from scratch, so any tyre company willing to stick their head in the lions mouth is going to want paying up front - not sure who is expected to do that. Cannot really see one or more teams getting together to pay Michelin/Bridgstone/Hankook/et al as each one will be trying to shaft the other.

Only option is for each team to choose a different tyre company, not sure there ar that many big enough ones around and am pretty sure at least half of the grid couldn't afford it.

Biggest stumbling block however would be Bernie and CVC. They wont't be able to make money from such an arrangement as there will be no $200m or whatever deals for the exclusive tyre advertising rights at GPs.

One can dream.

Might be OK for a season or two until one team locks into an exclusive deal with the winning tyre manufacturer and everyone else thinks - is this really worth it. OK, the racing only teams like Williams might stick around but not sure about manufacturer related teams - if there any left after current problems.