How many of the current drivers are pay drivers?

alonso is paid by the sponsors

is that being the paydriver or not

Edited by Myrvold, 06 July 2013 - 20:18.

alonso is paid by the sponsors

is that being the paydriver or not

Wouldn't be there without sponsorship
Chilton
Pic
van der Garde
Maldonado
Gutierrez

Sort of so-so, brings sponsors, but is in F1 on sort of merit too
Bottas
Grosjean

I have no clue about Bianchi and Sutil - if he pays, he would be in the second group.
Perez I don't think is currently paying for his seat though he did last year and could do next year if Telmex switches allegiances.

Wouldn't be there without sponsorship
Chilton
Pic
van der Garde
Maldonado
Gutierrez

Sort of so-so, brings sponsors, but is in F1 on sort of merit too
Bottas
Grosjean

I have no clue about Bianchi and Sutil - if he pays, he would be in the second group.
Perez I don't think is currently paying for his seat though he did last year and could do next year if Telmex switches allegiances.

I disagree with the heading considering 1. Maldonado won GP2 the year Perez only came runner up, 2. he is the only driver among those mentioned who has actually won a race. Pay driver is a term that stuck, but I am pretty sure with or without sponsorship Maldonado would still be in F1 on merit.

stop complaining; the only current pay driver is chilton, which has the largest average quali distance against his team team mate (Bianchi)

other "pay" drivers are just good at their thing, thats all

I am not complaining about the term 'pay driver' but sopa's "Wouldn't be there without sponsorship" heading of which Maldonado is one in the list. That is what I find unfair.

Edited by sopa, 07 July 2013 - 18:00.

Would Williams have really hired him if Maldonado brought nothing at all? No, they would have kept Hulkenberg-Barrichello for 2011 in this case or found another paydriver willing to pay. 2010 was Maldonado's fourth GP2 season. While a solid driver, Maldonado was never rated as a future F1 star at any time. Top teams would not have looked at him, maybe a backmarker would have if finances were not an issue. You can look at the fates of Pantano and Valsecchi, what happens to GP2 champions, who have been around in feeder series a long time and don't have sponsorship to proceed to F1.

If that is the case, so should Perez and Bottas be on that list. Because without their sponsorship, they wouldn't be in F1 either.

Even McLaren falling into 'pay driver' trap - Villeneuve

Thursday 19 September at 08:35 : Sep.19 (GMM) Jacques Villeneuve has joined those who rail against the increasing power wielded by so-called 'pay drivers' in formula one.

 Drivers with sponsorship and lucrative connections have always been a part of the sport, but with F1's rising costs and the struggling economy, only in the past few years has it begun to truly lock out promising talent.

 "If even McLaren is going down this path, it's bad," 1997 world champion Jacques Villeneuve, obviously referring to the billionaire Carlos Slim-backed Sergio Perez, told the German newspaper Bild.

 This week, Mark Webber - also a 'purist' like Villeneuve - hailed those new talents who are managing to shine in F1 despite the new 'pay driver' era.

 Webber mentioned Williams' Valtteri Bottas, but Villeneuve has a different view of the Finn.

 "It's terrible when I hear how happy they are with their driver Bottas," he said.

 "Sorry, but finishing between 11th and 16th places is not doing a great job. They're saying it only not to upset the sponsor that he's bringing.

 "The teams are killing, more and more, the image of formula one that it once had," Villeneuve insisted.

Full article: http://www.onestopst...Villeneuve.html

Edited by fastlegs, 19 September 2013 - 18:29.

Even McLaren falling into 'pay driver' trap - Villeneuve

 

Thursday 19 September at 08:35 : Sep.19 (GMM) Jacques Villeneuve has joined those who rail against the increasing power wielded by so-called 'pay drivers' in formula one.

 Drivers with sponsorship and lucrative connections have always been a part of the sport, but with F1's rising costs and the struggling economy, only in the past few years has it begun to truly lock out promising talent.

 

 "If even McLaren is going down this path, it's bad," 1997 world champion Jacques Villeneuve, obviously referring to the billionaire Carlos Slim-backed Sergio Perez, told the German newspaper Bild.

 This week, Mark Webber - also a 'purist' like Villeneuve - hailed those new talents who are managing to shine in F1 despite the new 'pay driver' era.

 

 Webber mentioned Williams' Valtteri Bottas, but Villeneuve has a different view of the Finn.

 "It's terrible when I hear how happy they are with their driver Bottas," he said.

 "Sorry, but finishing between 11th and 16th places is not doing a great job. They're saying it only not to upset the sponsor that he's bringing.

 

 "The teams are killing, more and more, the image of formula one that it once had," Villeneuve insisted.

 

Full article: http://www.onestopst...Villeneuve.html

Has some Finn beaten up Villeneuve or what's his issue?

Has some Finn beaten up Villeneuve or what's his issue?

I think JV is just generally frustrated with the way F1 is evolving today.

I disagree with the heading considering 1. Maldonado won GP2 the year Perez only came runner up, 2. he is the only driver among those mentioned who has actually won a race. Pay driver is a term that stuck, but I am pretty sure with or without sponsorship Maldonado would still be in F1 on merit.

That's the problem with the label. Today's "pay drivers" are very capable racers, it's nothing like the pay drivers from the 80s and 90s. 

Maldonado - Won GP2 (took him 4 years, but hey)

Perez - GP2 runner up on 2nd season (only lost to 4 year series veteran), won British F3 national class, gave the 3 Ardens a run for their money in a 1 car team in British F3 international class.

Gutiérrez - 3rd place in GP2 (only lost to 4 years series veterans) in second season, 2010 GP3 champion, FBMW 2008 champion.

Van der Garde - Some GP2 wins

Chilton - Some GP2 wins

So yes, they bring sponsors, but they can race in F1 and don't look completely out of place, maybe even win a race if the car is up to the task. It's not black and white.

Plus, aren't there like a million threads on this already? Is there a search function?

Edited by Collective, 19 September 2013 - 18:41.

Has anyone ever asked Jacques Villeneuve what he thinks his motor racing career would've amounted to had his name not been Jacques Villeneuve ? 

 Webber mentioned Williams' Valtteri Bottas, but Villeneuve has a different view of the Finn.

 "It's terrible when I hear how happy they are with their driver Bottas," he said.

 "Sorry, but finishing between 11th and 16th places is not doing a great job. They're saying it only not to upset the sponsor that he's bringing.

You'd think given the later stages of his F1 career Villeneuve wouldn't be saying such rubbish.

Has anyone ever asked Jacques Villeneuve what he thinks his motor racing career would've amounted to had his name not been Jacques Villeneuve ? 

There's no need: http://en.wikipedia....leneuve_(elder).

Has anyone ever asked Jacques Villeneuve what he thinks his motor racing career would've amounted to had his name not been Jacques Villeneuve ? 

Other than Damon Hill and JV, all the other racing sons of F1 drivers haven't come close to accomplishing what Damon and JV have.

My point is that it wasn't the Villeneuve name that won a CART championship, Indy 500 and the WDC, it was JV's skill. Your name will only get you so far, the rest of the way is up to your ability and determination.

Even McLaren falling into 'pay driver' trap - Villeneuve

Thursday 19 September at 08:35 : Sep.19 (GMM) Jacques Villeneuve has joined those who rail against the increasing power wielded by so-called 'pay drivers' in formula one.
Drivers with sponsorship and lucrative connections have always been a part of the sport, but with F1's rising costs and the struggling economy, only in the past few years has it begun to truly lock out promising talent.

"If even McLaren is going down this path, it's bad," 1997 world champion Jacques Villeneuve, obviously referring to the billionaire Carlos Slim-backed Sergio Perez, told the German newspaper Bild.
This week, Mark Webber - also a 'purist' like Villeneuve - hailed those new talents who are managing to shine in F1 despite the new 'pay driver' era.

Webber mentioned Williams' Valtteri Bottas, but Villeneuve has a different view of the Finn.
"It's terrible when I hear how happy they are with their driver Bottas," he said.
"Sorry, but finishing between 11th and 16th places is not doing a great job. They're saying it only not to upset the sponsor that he's bringing.

"The teams are killing, more and more, the image of formula one that it once had," Villeneuve insisted.

Full article: http://www.onestopst...Villeneuve.html

Edited by autosportfan, 19 September 2013 - 20:14.

Is it time for J Villeneuve to start a new hobby like gardening to keep him busy?

It is his opinion, he is allowed to have one just like you, but unlike you or anyone on this forum, JV was actually at the top level of his sport and was a champion as well.

Is it time for J Villeneuve to start a new hobby like gardening to keep him busy?

I find him quite refreshing, he says what he thinks, without having to be "political correct"

I find him quite refreshing, he says what he thinks, without having to be "political correct"

I'm sorry, how do you find it refreshing when a man speaks utter garbage?

I'm sorry, how do you find it refreshing when a man speaks utter garbage?

There is quite a lot of truth in it, even if some do not like to hear it

Bottas does not set the world alight & Perez is a pay driver IMO

The only two who I think are on the grid solely down to money are Chilton and Gutierrez

It is his opinion, he is allowed to have one just like you, but unlike you or anyone on this forum, JV was actually at the top level of his sport and was a champion as well.

And we, as lucky forumers, get to have an opinion of JV's opinion, which in my opinion, is completely invalid nonsense 9/10th of the time, bourne of what appears to be hearsay and invention in either a bid for attention or in a fit of jealous rage.

Edited by bourbon, 19 September 2013 - 22:01.

Seriously now guys.

Does anyone know why Jacques has it in for Kimi, like was there anything that set of Jacques. Seems like a random target, its not like Kimi is that vital to Jacques career or anything, at least if he slagged Schumi constantly you could understand a bit more.

Here's another question for everyone.

Who was the first?

The earliest one I recall is Pedro Diniz from the Petronus Sauber and then the Prost team.

Nowadays the line between pay driver and talented driver has become increasingly blurred. People talk about Grosjean and Maldonado as pay drivers, but they are both GP2 champions and, in Maldonado's case, a grand prix winner. In my opinion Maldonado has shown enough speed to not only be worthy of an F1 seat, but of an F1 seat better than the one he currently has. So where to draw the line? Is a genuinely talented driver who brings sponsorship a pay driver? I mean, Alonso brings Santander, but is clearly worthy of his seat. Perhaps some would define pay driver as a driver who wouldn't have a seat were it not for their backing, but for many teams talent is less important than the sponsors a driver can bring, so in that case you'd have to  class several talented drivers as pay drivers. The line is just too ambiguous to make such a judgement.

Edited by Spillage, 19 September 2013 - 23:48.

Seriously now guys.

 

Does anyone know why Jacques has it in for Kimi, like was there anything that set of Jacques. Seems like a random target, its not like Kimi is that vital to Jacques career or anything, at least if he slagged Schumi constantly you could understand a bit more.

Well, I too find it strange considering his promotional ties with Ferrari, especially after last year when he drove his father's car hosted by Ferrari, but it could be it's not really against Kimi, but maybe his on view of an almost team manager.

Seriously now guys.

 

Does anyone know why Jacques has it in for Kimi, like was there anything that set of Jacques. Seems like a random target, its not like Kimi is that vital to Jacques career or anything, at least if he slagged Schumi constantly you could understand a bit more.

Maybe he was a candidate for that McLaren seat in 2002?

 

They go back a lot further than that. Niki Lauda had to buy his March seat in 1972. Not all pay drivers are lacking in ability.

 

Nowadays the line between pay driver and talented driver has become increasingly blurred. People talk about Grosjean and Maldonado as pay drivers, but they are both GP2 champions and, in Maldonado's case, a grand prix winner. In my opinion Maldonado has shown enough speed to not only be worthy of an F1 seat, but of an F1 seat better than the one he currently has. So where to draw the line? Is a genuinely talented driver who brings sponsorship a pay driver? I mean, Alonso brings Santander, but is clearly worthy of his seat. Perhaps some would define pay driver as a driver who wouldn't have a seat were it not for their backing, but for many teams talent is less important than the sponsors a driver can bring, so in that case you'd have to  class several talented drivers as pay drivers. The line is just too ambiguous to make such a judgement.

 

Spot on, and thanks for that info about Lauda. Didn't know that.

I guess you're right, and I think the line should be whether the sponsors are backing talent, or a marketable smile.

A few weeks back I was informed here, sorry can't remember who, that Merc paid the 150K to put Schumacher in that Jordan seat back 1991, but tSchumacher then was already tipped as a race winner by Merc's future plans, and not by some commercial product outside of motor sports.

I agree with Maldonado. As much as he's been a disaster, he's got talent. Then I also remember Schekter being a disaster in his first seasons causing some insanes accidents but became champion.

Maybe he was a candidate for that McLaren seat in 2002?

That would be my guess, Villeneuve was frequently touted as the heir apparent to Mika Häkkinen.

Edited by Oho, 20 September 2013 - 05:46.

alonso is paid by the sponsors

is that being the paydriver or not

I would not count that as a paydriver. For me paydriver is someone who pays with his own money.

There is quite a lot of truth in it, even if some do not like to hear it

Bottas does not set the world alight & Perez is a pay driver IMO

Bottas might not set the world on fire but what Villeneuve says about him is rubbish.  How can you expect a driver to finish higher than in places 11-16 in that awful car which FW35 is? And the sponsorship he brings is not that much, Williams wouldn't bother to said good words on him not to upset the sponsor, because if they are not satisfied with the job Valtteri is not doing, they can easily find a man who will bring twice or triple as much money to replace him.

I would not count that as a paydriver. For me paydriver is someone who pays with his own money.

If so, then we hardly have any paydrivers on the current grid.

Perez was on the list in 2011-12 by the way. But at the moment he doesn't bring anything to McLaren, hence isn't a paydriver!

That's perhaps a coincidence that the same Claro what started to support Sauber in 2011 is now at McLaren?

Maldonado - Won GP2 (took him 4 years, but hey)

Perez - GP2 runner up on 2nd season (only lost to 4 year series veteran), won British F3 national class, gave the 3 Ardens a run for their money in a 1 car team in British F3 international class.

Gutiérrez - 3rd place in GP2 (only lost to 4 years series veterans) in second season, 2010 GP3 champion, FBMW 2008 champion.

Van der Garde - Some GP2 wins

Chilton - Some GP2 wins

Mind you;

van der Garde also won the 2008 Formula Renault 3.5 and he was 2002 Super A world champion in karting.

Gutierrez was Formula BMW and GP3 Champion

Maldonado also was the Formula Renault 2.0 Italy champion

Max Chilton best championship result was 2nd in T Cars 

All but Chilton were champions at some point

And we, as lucky forumers, get to have an opinion of JV's opinion, which in my opinion, is completely invalid nonsense 9/10th of the time, bourne of what appears to be hearsay and invention in either a bid for attention or in a fit of jealous rage.

I am sure if Villeneuve was to have an opinion about the opinions of people on the Internet (if someone asked him such question), he would answer that stuff posted on Internet is utter garbage.

Seriously now guys.

 

Does anyone know why Jacques has it in for Kimi, like was there anything that set of Jacques. Seems like a random target, its not like Kimi is that vital to Jacques career or anything, at least if he slagged Schumi constantly you could understand a bit more.

I don't know I can only guess the main reason is that their personalities are very different. JV likes to be outspoken, while Kimi not. So they are like opposites and JV doesn't understand the personality of Kimi.

 

 

 

That's perhaps a coincidence that the same Claro what started to support Sauber in 2011 is now at McLaren?

Yea you are right, I didn't notice it before. So Perez is a paydriver too, at McLaren as well.

But yeah I have to say whoever said the term paydriver is vague, is right. Because teams always take commercial considerations into account too when hiring a driver. McLaren could choose between Perez and di Resta for 2013. They took Perez. Why? Because leaving Telmex and Perez paydriving aside, it would give better marketing possibilities in general than having another Brit in the team.

And so these considerations go across the whole grid. I am sure Red Bull takes marketing strategy into account in hiring people to their junior programmes, even if we don't consider their drivers as paydrivers. All in all many drivers are paydrivers, even if they don't pay directly, but indirectly - better marketing platform. It is important if you have several similarly leveled drivers to choose from. And it explains, why drivers like di Resta and Heidfeld are always left behind the doors of top teams - they don't attract marketing opportunities neither with their personality nor nation (because there are/were better drivers from their country already in F1).

But it is true that some drivers are so good that they create marketing opportunities with their racing skills, so even if hiring them has a good effect on marketing, they can't be considered paydrivers. Alonso is one of such.

Edited by sopa, 20 September 2013 - 11:02.

I don't really understand this forums obsession with 'pay drivers'.

Its not like any of the guys out their are incapable. It has also been pointed out above that even Niki bought his way into his F2 and F1 drives. Motorsports is an expensive game to get in to and very few of the drivers haven't relied at some point on either personal or sponsorship money.

I honestly don't see anyone out there at the moment and think - they shouldn't be in an F1 car, they are only there because of money. Maybe there are more capable drivers not in F1, but I bet they would also need cash to bring them up the chain. The 'sport' will always be tied to business, I'm afraid.

Here's another question for everyone.

 

Who was the first?

 

The earliest one I recall is Pedro Diniz from the Petronus Sauber and then the Prost team.

Diniz raced for the Forti team, oh how could we forget!

But pay drivers have been going for as long as F1 has been around. In the 80s you had drivers like De Cesaris with lots of Marlboro Italy money behind him.

Diniz' F1 record may not have been great, but i think at the time, he was thought of as one of the better pay drivers of the 90's at least