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8 votes

Points for pole, fastest lap and most laps lead.

Started by 7MGTEsup , Aug 06 2013 09:01

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121 replies to this topic

#1 7MGTEsup

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:01

Who else thinks it's time these were awarded a championship point each to make them relevant again?

#2 mnmracer

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:16

Question is: are fastest lap and most laps lead relevant?
Personally, I say no, certainly because fastest lap under the current rules is just whoever stops last and has the freshest tires with the least fuel.

Other question: is pole irrelevant?
I don't see how. If you are pointing to "but this and this driver sits out Q3", you are not going to change that by giving points for pole position. The battle for pole is always on. Always.

#3 Disgrace

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:22

Gimmicky rubbish. It would only lead to further gimmicky rules such as limiting fastest laps to those in the top X places, who haven't bolted on a new set of tyres on the penultimate lap.

#4 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:23

Points for pole wouldn't gain you anything. It's not like a Force India or Toro Rosso won't sit out Q3 if pole would get you points, because they won't have a chance anyway.

#5 Prost1997T

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:25

GP2 drivers get points for pole and fastest lap, but I don't see the FIA doing that in F1.

#6 Shiroo

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 09:46

fastest lap points? imagine Caterham changing tyres 1 lap before finish just to get that.
SO NO.

Same with pole, some cars are not capable of that, but they are brilliant in the race, and the race is point of the weekend.

Laps lead, same as before but with strategy. Some cars run 2 pit stops some 3. So it is uncalled for.

So no, for everything

#7 redreni

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:01

Who else thinks it's time these were awarded a championship point each to make them relevant again?

Was fastest lap ever relevant? It's never carried points or a trophy or anything, so only stattos are bothered by it. I suspect the original reason why it became a statistic of note is because, in the relatively early days of motorsport when the TV pictures weren't up to much, it allowed journalists to convey to the audience just how fast the cars were by giving the average speeds - average speed of the pole-man, average speed of the winner over the course of the race, and the average speed of the fastest race lap.

Pole is still relevant - not as much as it was when you couldn't overtake, but it's still the ideal place to start the race from.

Number of laps lead is a statistic that, as far as I know, has never been considered of particular interest to anybody. No more so, at least, than any other irrelevant stat. It's the last lap that counts, not any previous lap.

#8 R Soul

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:08

Pole position already gives drivers an advantage. Points for the fastest lap would just be another thing for 'the show', but the finishing order should be the only thing that awards points.

#9 Cool Beans

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:08

They already get a reward for qualifying; it's called a better starting position for the race and that's the whole reason qualifying was implemented. Points for practice sessions and most stylish team uniforms next?

#10 7MGTEsup

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:10

I never expected such a negative reception to this. I'm pretty sure points used to be awarded for these achievments and are awarded in other series.

The way I see it is if you totally dominate a race weekend as in put it on pole lead over half the race and your car blows up you get some points for the effort. But it seems a lot of you don't see it that way.

#11 DampMongoose

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:19

Was fastest lap ever relevant? It's never carried points or a trophy or anything

Between 1950 and 1959 fastest lap gained a world championship point for the driver (not constructor). Also when you look at the margin of victory in the WDC during those years 5 times it was less than 6 points... similar in many ways to the last few years so I'd say it was more than relevant!

#12 Shiroo

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:20

I never expected such a negative reception to this. I'm pretty sure points used to be awarded for these achievments and are awarded in other series.

The way I see it is if you totally dominate a race weekend as in put it on pole lead over half the race and your car blows up you get some points for the effort. But it seems a lot of you don't see it that way.

it is Formula 1 not some junior series, that's why.

Pole Position isn't for points, it's for better starting position, and that's why it was introduced in the very first place.
Leading laps, what's the point of that? Who cares about who, for how long was leading, the result is what the counts. And how you would count it? each lap = 1 pts? or 20 lap = 1 pts? And what about tracks like Spa vs Hungaroring for example. Nonsense.
Fastest lap, would bring artificial things like everyone outside top 10 would pit just to gain points from that. The teams in top 10 wouldn't even try. So it should award at max as well 1 pts, but cause if it would award more, what's the point of running at position 7-10

#13 DampMongoose

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:28

I'd like to see a point for fastest lap again, but I'd also want a return to points only for top 6. This modern system is a bit too similar to my kids sports days where there are no losers every takes part nonsense. It worked in the past when points where more valuable...

All the other suggestions of extra points are not worthy of serious comment for me!

#14 JimboJones

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:38

It's a stupid idea, for one simple reason. No-one wants a championship decided before race day, end of.

#15 7MGTEsup

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:38

Leading laps, what's the point of that? Who cares about who, for how long was leading, the result is what the counts. And how you would count it? each lap = 1 pts? or 20 lap = 1 pts? And what about tracks like Spa vs Hungaroring for example. Nonsense.

Erm its 1 point for leading the most laps in the race, 1 point for pole position and 1 point for fastest lap. I'm pretty sure at some point in history all these have had points awarded.

And if a team wants to pit and try for the fastest lap at the end to score a point whats the harm in that? They were obviously not a factor in the race.

Edited by 7MGTEsup, 06 August 2013 - 10:39.

#16 7MGTEsup

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:40

It's a stupid idea, for one simple reason. No-one wants a championship decided before race day, end of.

What you mean like seasons whan the championship has been won with races to spare?

#17 7MGTEsup

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:44

I'd like to see a point for fastest lap again, but I'd also want a return to points only for top 6. This modern system is a bit too similar to my kids sports days where there are no losers every takes part nonsense. It worked in the past when points where more valuable...

All the other suggestions of extra points are not worthy of serious comment for me!

I'm all for a revision to the points system only going down to 6th as 10th just seems like a non position to me. Also they should go back to 10,6,4,3,2,1 making a win much more valuable.

#18 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:57

I'm all for a revision to the points system only going down to 6th as 10th just seems like a non position to me. Also they should go back to 10,6,4,3,2,1 making a win much more valuable.

And a possible boring championship to come with it? No thanks. With the current points system a win is just as valuable. There's 7 points between being first or second, that is enough.

Also, at least we now see battles for 7th to 10th now. We wouldn't have that with old points scoring system.

Edited by DutchQuicksilver, 06 August 2013 - 10:59.

#19 FerrariV12

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 11:05

While I did like the old 10-6-4-3-2-1 system, I think the new one rewarding top 10 is needed simply because of the insane levels of reliability we see these days. I'd say it was easier for a lower team to score a point (for top six) in the 80s or 90s than it is to get top 10 now, because in those days you'd often get less than half the field finishing the race.

The fact Caterham and Marussia have yet to score a point in 3 and a half years suggests the current points system isn't overly generous.

#20 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 11:08

I agree. The last race we had with loads of DNF's was I think Melbourne 2008, that is now five years ago.

#21 Anderis

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 11:18

The points for fastest lap would be interesting indeed. Sometimes the last couple of laps is just bringing the car home. It would ensure additional emotions to see who would get these points for fastest lap and some drivers would push on the final laps to get them. It would even enourage leader to push as much as he can, to make a gap which allows him to make an additional pit stop and take the points for fastest lap at the end of the race.

Points for most laps led? Well, that could encourage some to try different strategies to maintain the lead as long as possible. Could be interesting as well.

Points for pole position? It wouldn't rather bring anything more to the competition. It could even make championship less interesting in some cases (when there is one car clearly the best package overall).

I understand why many people wouldn't like the idea of points for all of that, but I can see why it could be interesting some way.

#22 redreni

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 11:19

I'd like to see a point for fastest lap again, but I'd also want a return to points only for top 6. This modern system is a bit too similar to my kids sports days where there are no losers every takes part nonsense. It worked in the past when points where more valuable...

All the other suggestions of extra points are not worthy of serious comment for me!

I'd actually prefer it if points went right down the classification. It'd be a better way of preventing people giving up after a lengthy delay in the pits than what happens currently, which is that they continue to circulate in the hope that the safety car will come out and gift them a lap and a half relative to the leader. If F1 adopted something like the V8SC system, where points are on offer for pretty much anyone who finishes as long as they complete 75% of the race distance by the time the chequered flag comes out, then we could get rid of safety car wave-bys and still not risk people retiring healthy cars purely because they've fallen too far behind to get points.

I don't agree that such a system would be akin to saying "everybody wins" because the serious points in V8SC are only for the top positions and they taper very sharply so it's not as if somebody could win the championship by consistently finishing 7th or something like that. But it does mean that if, during the course of the championship, the title protagonists all have a few bad races, there is differentiation between those depending exactly how bad the bad races were, which in a way rewards grit and determination and the ability to make the best of a bad job much more than the old top-six-only F1 points system.

EDIT: It would also bring an end to the ludicrous position whereby the battle for 10th in the WCC is decided not over 19 or 20 races but over one race - i.e. whichever of the backmarker teams manages to beat the other in the race of highest attrition, and thereby gets the highest overall finishing position. So Caterham could beat Marussia consistently all season, have one bad race which happens to be one with a lot of retirements and Marussia picks up a 12th or a 13th, and finish behind them in the WCC. Better to have those teams scoring points, in my view, so that their performance relative to each other over the season will determine their WCC position.

Edited by redreni, 06 August 2013 - 12:40.

#23 DampMongoose

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 11:20

Erm its 1 point for leading the most laps in the race, 1 point for pole position and 1 point for fastest lap. I'm pretty sure at some point in history all these have had points awarded.

And if a team wants to pit and try for the fastest lap at the end to score a point whats the harm in that? They were obviously not a factor in the race.

No only the fastest lap has ever had points awarded in F1, Indy might have had points for the others but then they make a big deal of crap like that over there!

#24 7MGTEsup

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 11:33

No only the fastest lap has ever had points awarded in F1, Indy might have had points for the others but then they make a big deal of crap like that over there!

Maybe thats where I'm crossing wires between indycar of the 90's and F1 as I watched both at the time.

#25 pdac

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 12:14

It's about racing ... The ideal for me would be:

WDC
1 point for a win, nothing for anything else

WCC
1 point for every competitor you beat, plus 1 point (i.e. if there are 10 teams entering 2 cars each, the winner gets 20 points, second gets 19 etc.)

#26 Atreiu

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 13:22

Nah, I'd rather see dropped scores.

#27 SamH123

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 13:30

re: the OP, I think pole is pretty relevant already.. It already gives you an advantage I don't see why we need to dish out points for it. The obvious problem is a tense/dramatic championship ending on the Saturday of the final weekend and the final race being irrelevant.

Fastest Lap is a gimmick nowadays anyway, you'd get loads of midfield teams who are out of the points pitting with 1 lap to go to try and get the Fastest lap points which would be weird

#28 Wander

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 14:38

The only one I could find acceptable under the right circumstances is a point for the fastest lap, but that wouldn't really work with current regulations.

#29 Tommay

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 15:03

Although I disagree with the proposal, would anyone support an extra point given for being with a certain percentage of the Q3 pole, say 101% (Pole driver would also get the point of course) This could add a little extra incentive for drivers to go for a flat out time in Q3.

#30 Jackmancer

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 15:10

Let's also give points for fastest pitstop, best overtake, fastest start and best looking helmet.

#31 William Hunt

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 15:24

+ 2 pts for best looking girlfriend!

#32 William Hunt

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 15:25

fastest lap points? imagine Caterham changing tyres 1 lap before finish just to get that.
SO NO.

That's why in GP2 the fastest race lap is only granted to the fastest race lap of any car in the top 10. So if you finish 11th or lower with the fastest race lap you won't get that point, they only look at the top 10. Still I don't like rules that grant pts for pole, fastest lap or most laps led.

#33 Mrluke

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 15:36

Its all a bit of a drama in here isnt it.

Best post so far is "that would mean Caterham could get a point so NO."

Personally I agree that points should go all the way to last place, afterall we are trying to encourage new teams into F1, you dont do that by making it impossible to score points.

Point for fastest lap would also be interesting, okay say caterham start pitting at the end to get the fastest lap point..some of the midfield teams are going to start covering so you will get lots of drivers pitting, but then other drivers will just stay out to get an additional point from everybody in front pitting...would certainly add an interesting dynamic to the race.

#34 CSquared

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 16:03

I like it. I think it could be interesting. I personally don't find it gimmicky since it's based on speed.

#35 F1Squishy

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 16:12

Would just make it easier for the team with the best car to win sooner. We'd never of had a battle for the Championship like in 2012 with these rules.

#36 FNG

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 16:18

Could you imagine a championship being won cause some guy got the fastest lap or lead the most laps? No way. As some have commented, some teams would just slap on fresh rubber with one lap to go to grab a point if they weren't in a points paying position anyways. No thanks

#37 olliek88

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 16:52

Won't happen, the last thing Bernie wants is the championship being decided on a Saturday. As for the other two they're a touch meaningless and irrelevant in my opinion.

#38 alframsey

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 17:03

I personally don't think any of these (pole, fastest lap and laps lead) has any relevance to F1 in it's current guise, none at all.

#39 crbassassin

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 18:09

1 extra point for being black.

Edited by crbassassin, 06 August 2013 - 18:09.

#40 alframsey

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 18:30

1 extra point for being black.

Lol I fear some people may take this the wrong way

#41 Collombin

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 18:35

Won't happen, the last thing Bernie wants is the championship being decided on a Saturday.

I think he was quite chuffed with the outcome when it happened in 1983

#42 SR388

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 18:44

No. We want the emphasis placed on WINNING.

#43 SCEPurple

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 18:55

I like the idea of pole granting a point I think.

#44 SR388

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 19:00

I like the idea of pole granting a point I think.

Are you sure? You don't sound very confident.

#45 CSquared

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 19:10

I think he was quite chuffed with the outcome when it happened in 1983

In 1987 it was decided on Friday. That's Friday of the 2nd-to-last race. Some posters here seem unaware that we've had many years where the championship was decided months before the final race. Adding these new points is just as likely to extend the championship as it is to shorten it.

No. We want the emphasis placed on WINNING.

1 for pole, 1 for fastest lap, 1 for most laps led, 25 for win. Seems like a big emphasis to me.

Could you imagine a championship being won cause some guy got the fastest lap or lead the most laps? No way.

Championships have been decided on worse things than a driver's speed. Although in 1958 it was basically decided by a few fastest laps and I admit I think that championship went to the wrong guy.

I personally don't think any of these (pole, fastest lap and laps lead) has any relevance to F1 in it's current guise, none at all.

Kind of a circular argument, don't you think?

Would just make it easier for the team with the best car to win sooner. We'd never of had a battle for the Championship like in 2012 with these rules.

You sure about that? Have you done the numbers?

If someone had the time, it would be interesting to retroactively add these points to a couple championships and see the effect.

#46 SCEPurple

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 19:15

Are you sure? You don't sound very confident.

Yeah, I think so.

#47 alframsey

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 19:26

Yeah, I think so.

I tend to agree, typically it'd be Vettel getting the pole point, fastest lap point and most laps lead point.

#48 g1n

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 19:34

+10 points if you can roll it!

#49 Mauseri

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 21:01

Question is: are fastest lap and most laps lead relevant?
Personally, I say no, certainly because fastest lap under the current rules is just whoever stops last and has the freshest tires with the least fuel.

Other question: is pole irrelevant?
I don't see how. If you are pointing to "but this and this driver sits out Q3", you are not going to change that by giving points for pole position. The battle for pole is always on. Always.

Extra points would make them relevant. I'd say no for points for other than race finish positions though. Other areas are just part of the art of getting it right.

Edited by Mauseri, 06 August 2013 - 21:11.

#50 Fastcake

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 21:39

I agree with points for every car that finishes. I don't see any reason why backmarkers should be competing over who gets the one highest position in a season, instead of fighting for every point-scoring position like the frontrunners.

No points for anything else thought. Finishing the race should be enough.

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Points for pole, fastest lap and most laps lead.

#1 7MGTEsup

#2 mnmracer

#3 Disgrace

#4 DutchQuicksilver

#5 Prost1997T

#6 Shiroo

#7 redreni

#8 R Soul

#9 Cool Beans

#10 7MGTEsup

#11 DampMongoose

#12 Shiroo

#13 DampMongoose

#14 JimboJones

#15 7MGTEsup

#16 7MGTEsup

#17 7MGTEsup

#18 DutchQuicksilver

#19 FerrariV12

#20 DutchQuicksilver

#21 Anderis

#22 redreni

#23 DampMongoose

#24 7MGTEsup

#25 pdac

#26 Atreiu

#27 SamH123

#28 Wander

#29 Tommay

#30 Jackmancer

#31 William Hunt

#32 William Hunt

#33 Mrluke

#34 CSquared

#35 F1Squishy

#36 FNG

#37 olliek88

#38 alframsey

#39 crbassassin

#40 alframsey

#41 Collombin

#42 SR388

#43 SCEPurple

#44 SR388

#45 CSquared

#46 SCEPurple

#47 alframsey

#48 g1n

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