Press reports of serious financial problems at Lotus [split topic]

Yes I can confirm he said this. But don't know how true it's.

Probably not true if Mika Salo is saying this. That guy is totally clueless about Kimis busines.

http://www.motorspor...n-13092004.html

• According to information from 'Motor-Total.com' are currently at least 20 CV's(in search of a new job) of Lotus engineers in the industry in circulation, only about 15 at Ferrari.
• Jarrod Murphy already left Lotus and will join Mercedes
• Lopez is looking for solutions in the background, he offers several investors 75 % of the team shares
• They also trying to get Maldonado on board with his sponsor PDVSA, but it could fail, because of the running contract between them and Willians until end of 2015
• There was a rumor in the paddock, that Renault could take Lotus as a manufacture team. But Alain Prost already rejected that, because too much financial investment would be needed.

Edited by Yoshi, 20 September 2013 - 09:22.

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http://www.motorspor...n-13092004.html

• According to information from 'Motor-Total.com' are currently at least 20 CV's(in search of a new job) of Lotus engineers in the industry in circulation, only about 15 at Ferrari.
• Jarrod Murphy already left Lotus and will join Mercedes
• Lopez is looking for solutions in the background, he offers several investors 75 % of the team shares
• They also trying to get Maldonado on board with his sponsor PDVSA, but it could fail, because of the running contract between them and Willians until end of 2015
• There was a rumor in the paddock, that Renault could take Lotus as a manufacture team. But Alain Prost already rejected that, because too much financial investment would be needed.

So no wonder kimi left. I just hope the team doesnt go belly up.

Murphy was the head of CFD. They are hemorrhaging personelle. It will take a long, long time to recover from this.

I fear Lotus won't be there next year. 

 

Damn, why they didn't spent half of the current budget? Still could grab 4th in the WCC last year.

And I think it means Hulk chances are really slim now - they need cash upfront.

I fear Lotus won't be there next year. 

 

Damn, why they didn't spent half of the current budget? Still could grab 4th in the WCC last year.

And I think it means Hulk chances are really slim now - they need cash upfront.

don't worry, if there was ever a Masochistic team in Formula 1 , it'd be Bentton/Renault/LotusF1 , they endured mass exodus when Schumacher left during there benetton days, then when Crashgate happened and now this. but they'll be back and strong again.

 

once, the honeymoon between RBR and Renault ends if/when DM pulls the plug, or atleast when Renault bosses will realize that it's better to be RENAULT F1 rather than Infiniti RBR to be recognized in Formula 1.

Or atleast when Renault bosses will realize that it's better to be RENAULT F1 rather than Infiniti RBR to be recognized in Formula 1.

 

 

don't worry, if there was ever a Masochistic team in Formula 1 , it'd be Bentton/Renault/LotusF1 , they endured mass exodus when Schumacher left during there benetton days, then when Crashgate happened and now this. but they'll be back and strong again.

 

once, the honeymoon between RBR and Renault ends if/when DM pulls the plug, or atleast when Renault bosses will realize that it's better to be RENAULT F1 rather than Infiniti RBR to be recognized in Formula 1.

 

Renault F1 had to rebuild its reputation and is lucky to have its engine associated with a winning team so people disconnect Renault from the scandal and shame that drove it from F1 as a constructor.

Eric boullier seemed like a 'Man on the ledge' at today's press conference. here's the snippet from the transcript

 

http://www.fia.com/n...press-conferece

 

 

 

Eric, if I could turn to you next. Not for the first time in Formula One history we’ve seen drivers and engineers leave Enstone recently to head off to Ferrari. How concerned are you about the impact the departures of Kimi Raikkonen, James Allison and Dirk de Beer will have on Lotus regarding your future competitiveness.

 

EB: Not so high as you could maybe surprisingly imagine. It’s true that it’s a new chapter for Enstone, we lose valuable people and obviously a very charismatic driver. But as you said it happened twice already in the Enstone and every time the team has been world champion right after. So actually I’m quite motivated saying let’s start a new chapter and do as well or as good as happened before.

 

Q: (Chris Lyons – AP) Eric,  Kimi said yesterday that one of the reasons he left was that he wasn’t being paid his salary. Can you clarify the details of that and does the fact that this has come out damage the brand of the team?

 

EB: I don’t think it’s damaging the brand of the team to be honest. The truth is that yes, we owe him money so that’s true. He’s going to be paid, that’s true too and if you want to have a little bit more of the story, last year in the same period it was the same story: we were owing him some money but at the end of the year he was fully paid. It’s just the way we manage our cash flow. Unfortunately we are not as rich as some other teams on the grid. You can also understand that a team capable of winning this year and fighting for some podiums may not be as sustainable as it should be. We have obviously favoured our people working in Enstone which is understandable I think, obviously the car development because this is the essence of Formula One if you want to keep competing. So there is nothing else behind this story.

don't worry, if there was ever a Masochistic team in Formula 1 , it'd be Bentton/Renault/LotusF1 , they endured mass exodus when Schumacher left during there benetton days, then when Crashgate happened and now this. but they'll be back and strong again.

 

once, the honeymoon between RBR and Renault ends if/when DM pulls the plug, or atleast when Renault bosses will realize that it's better to be RENAULT F1 rather than Infiniti RBR to be recognized in Formula 1.

I can't see how they could continue to exist gradually increasing debt, not in this economy. The only realistical solution to find a new, rich buyer, but Russians can't buy every struggling team in F1. They should spend much less next season and squezee everything from first races for WCC points. No one would want to buy team with a huge debt.

Edited by Artkab2013, 20 September 2013 - 20:02.

I can't see how they could continue to exist gradually increasing debt, not in this economy. The only realistical solution to find a new, rich buyer, but Russians can't buy every struggling team in F1. They should spend much less next season and squezee everything from first races for WCC points. No one would want tj buy a team with a huge debt.

this might shed some light into the philosophy as to how Genii is managing LotusF1 and how they percive to be the best course of action

http://www.fia.com/n...press-conferece

Q: (Mat Coch – pitpass.com) Eric, with Kimi leaving and the state of the team at the moment, are you after a driver to come in on a salary or are you looking for someone to bring funding?

EB: We keep the same strategy that we’ve had for many months. Geni helped us to bring the team to where it is today. We now want to have more finance, more sponsors because we need to step up and guarantee some stability over a few years. That’s part of the strategy, this is what we are still working on and we need to deliver on that point. We see the timing was not the right one for Kimi but we still have to deliver this. That would then allow us to chose drivers on merit which is obviously the first choice.

there are 2 major flaws in that design ... they are as follows

1. they have to have a competitive car
2. they need to have a star driver that can perform day in day out

now, we obviously know the recent mass exodus of brain power from Enstone factory. one important factor is that the 2014 car might already be at an advanced stage by now, so there is a chance that the car might be actually pretty good out of the box. but what then??? can they develop it throughout the season???

second factor is the driver Front, Although Romain has 'Speed' he doesn't have the consistency, nor the global appeal and the charisma of the likes of Kimi raikkonen. they need a strong No.1 driver. or atleast some one who is able to generate publicity. Face it, that is how a Commercial Hedge fund would sell a company/product. is Nico Hulkenberg the answer?? we don't know ... yet.

overall, tough situation at Enstone. They really need to sort out their priorities ATM. do they really want to continue to be a top tier team because at the moment, it's hurting them. they can easily become a midfield team, the likes of Force india, by choosing their priorities and expenditures and probably dominate midfield. sometimes teams need to take a step back to go at the front.

but the opposite is also true, sponsors always like to play with the top players, cause that's where the publicity is. let's face it, LotusF1 has attracted quite a buzz due to it's success and it's drivers in recent years, after the dismal 2011. now is the right (and perhaps only) moment to capitalize on this. Gerard Lopez knows this. who knows, maybe the Infinity deal is just around the corner. perhaps that's why KIMI is trying to help the team. recent signing of Emaar Properties is a plus. so we'll have to wait and see.

Murphy was the head of CFD. They are hemorrhaging personelle. It will take a long, long time to recover from this.

 

It does look unlikely that they'll remain a top team, which would be a shame for Hulkenberg.

It does look unlikely that they'll remain a top team, which would be a shame for Hulkenberg.

Beggars can't be choosers

team competitiveness is the least of Nico's problem ATM

I predict a title sponsor who brings enough cash for a top midfield budget and along with that another name change for next year..

PitLane Talk : '' According to MotorSport-Total, Lotus are in serious trouble. Around 20 employees are expected to leave, with 15 heading to Ferrari. #F1 ''  via twitter

 

https://twitter.com/...146633817554944 

Yep, when Kimi and the whole top technical stuff has left the team (and other stuff wants to do the same) Genii suddenly would find a huge title sponsor - are you serious?

 

Their main priority should be decreasing debt, but I'm hearing the opposite, they want to show how the team is good to sell it like TOP-team. It would have worked ten years ago, but not now in time of greatest economical recession.

So much for the unmotivated Kimi only in it for money myth.

Kimi is driving for free. The guys who spam the money myth probably have some ulterior motives for spreading their agenda on the line.

Shame. Lotus were doing such a great job with a limited budget, but with talented engineers leaving, KR leaving too, it seems next year (if they even manage so far) will be a major failure for them.

It's lotus' fault really.

EB admitted that they were overspending in order to fight at the top/stay on top. They wouldn't be in this mess if they hadn't spent more than they actually could. 

I guess the idea was to shine through those results and find a decent partner, but it hasn't really worked out (yet), has it!?

 

Why the hell is the font size getting smaller?   

Edited by Radion, 20 September 2013 - 21:28.

It does not look good for Lotus. The fact that it is increasingly more difficult to find corporate sponsors with several Fortune-500 companies leaving F1, and gradually losing their technical personnel to the rival teams.

Is there really a chance that the team will change it's name again for next season?

F1 is seemingly too money orientated and everything costs millions, is it any wonder teams are getting priced out??

I'm not a fan of Lotus at all but would be sad to see the team go under.

 

But then folks laugh at Hispania for being disorganised and racing pay drivers!

 

The humble, small prototype constructor teams are ALREADY where they belong in affordable LMP2 racing.  Bernie doesn't want them in F1, I don't think, in fact almost certainlty Bernies DOES NOT want such teams lowly, unprestigous in F1 (where they would be 10+ seconds off the pace anyhow). 

a lmp2 team is tiny compaired to f1

i think aguri, owner of super aguri said you need about 100 people for f1, lmp2 would be sub 20 people i think.

Gerard Lopez didn't like Kimi's comments it seems:

 

http://www.f1zone.ne...comments/20454/

 

It's ridiculous when your driver and people at the factory are not getting paid in time, and they act like it could happen everywhere and it's nothing to worry about. When 20 employees expecting to leave there obviously something wrong. I don't understand why they're angry at Kimi, why should he lie about the fact that he's not getting paid? And he's only saying it because people ask him about it. I didn't know the financial situation at Lotus was that bad..

Gerard Lopez didn't like Kimi's comments it seems:

http://www.f1zone.ne...comments/20454/

It's ridiculous when your driver and people at the factory are not getting paid in time, and they act like it could happen everywhere and it's nothing to worry about. When 20 employees expecting to leave there obviously something wrong. I don't understand why they're angry at Kimi, why should he lie about the fact that he's not getting paid? And he's only saying it because people ask him about it. I didn't know the financial situation at Lotus was that bad..

They are angry because they lost him.

Anyway other teams are now attacking against top teams because F1 uses too much money every year when since 2010 it should used less...but next year more money than ever is needed and caterham, Force India, Lotus and Toro Rosso has already blamed rich teams of being greedy.

I believe the V6 turbo engine change is one of the most expensive costs teams are facing, and Boullier was at the sharp tip of the spear pushing for that to happen. In some ways, they brought this crisis of cash on themselves. Hard to blame others for that. I also think Lotus took Kimi on hoping to cash in on his high visibility and fan support, but despite a front-running car for two years running, the big sponsors still have not come. I do hope they can sort themselves, because they really overperform considering the budget they have and it would be a shame if they disappeared from the grid.   

They are angry because they lost him.

Anyway other teams are now attacking against top teams because F1 uses too much money every year when since 2010 it should used less...but next year more money than ever is needed and caterham, Force India, Lotus and Toro Rosso has already blamed rich teams of being greedy.

 

Tony Fernandez has come out swinging against certain top teams for not reigning in the cost in the last couple of days. 

 

Sauber is on life-support and have not paid Ferrari for their engine use for the year. Luckily they found the Russians.

 

KingFisher - the main shareholder of Force India - is in trouble in India.

 

Williamsf1 reported a net loss for 2012 and accumulated loss of over £114mil by the Group and have to resort to pay drivers.

 

Lotus can't even pay their star driver and losing tons of technical staff to rival teams.

 

Marussia does not even have a commercial agreement with BE.

 

The only teams without any financial issues are RBR, Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes and perhaps Torro Roso (for having DM's backing). Things aren't looking rosy for F1...

Tony Fernandez has come out swinging against certain top teams for not reigning in the cost in the last couple of days. 

 

Sauber is on life-support and have not paid Ferrari for their engine use for the year. Luckily they found the Russians.

 

KingFisher - the main shareholder of Force India - is in trouble in India.

 

Williamsf1 reported a net loss for 2012 and accumulated loss of over £114mil by the Group and have to resort to pay drivers.

 

Lotus can't even pay their star driver and losing tons of technical staff to rival teams.

 

Marussia does not even have a commercial agreement with BE.

 

The only teams without any financial issues are RBR, Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes and perhaps Torro Roso (for having DM's backing). Things aren't looking rosy for F1...

They haven't for a few years and we just might getting closer to the bigbang.

Renault F1 had to rebuild its reputation and is lucky to have its engine associated with a winning team so people disconnect Renault from the scandal and shame that drove it from F1 as a constructor.

 

.... at about the same time as Toyota, Honda and BMW. 

Gerard Lopez didn't like Kimi's comments it seems:

 

http://www.f1zone.ne...comments/20454/

 

It's ridiculous when your driver and people at the factory are not getting paid in time, and they act like it could happen everywhere and it's nothing to worry about. When 20 employees expecting to leave there obviously something wrong. I don't understand why they're angry at Kimi, why should he lie about the fact that he's not getting paid? And he's only saying it because people ask him about it. I didn't know the financial situation at Lotus was that bad..

 

Q: There is considerable speculation right now about Lotus’s financial situation - rumours that the team is in deep water with significant debts. What is the reality?

Eric Boullier: Look at some of the other teams: at Red Bull or Mercedes, those companies are sponsoring the teams. Genii has a different strategy: they loan the money. It is part of the strategy that partners join the team and Genii will get back their investment. Seventy-five percent of the debt Lotus has comes from Genii. They could write it off tomorrow by saying this money is a sponsorship - and then our debt would be drastically reduced. Our normal debt is similar to most of the other teams. Take Mercedes for example: they could say that the money they invest in Brackley is only a loan - then the debt of the team would be seriously higher than ours. 

 

http://www.formula1....13/9/15015.html

 

Interesting...

 

This doesn't make any sense though.  Genii is an investment firm--they have no product or service to sell, thus no reason to advertise through sponsorship.  From the beginning, I thought Renault made a mistake not selling Enstone to Prodrive.

 

Q: There is considerable speculation right now about Lotus’s financial situation - rumours that the team is in deep water with significant debts. What is the reality?

Eric Boullier: Look at some of the other teams: at Red Bull or Mercedes, those companies are sponsoring the teams. Genii has a different strategy: they loan the money. It is part of the strategy that partners join the team and Genii will get back their investment. Seventy-five percent of the debt Lotus has comes from Genii. They could write it off tomorrow by saying this money is a sponsorship - and then our debt would be drastically reduced. Our normal debt is similar to most of the other teams. Take Mercedes for example: they could say that the money they invest in Brackley is only a loan - then the debt of the team would be seriously higher than ours. 

 

http://www.formula1....13/9/15015.html

 

Interesting...

 

Haha, well it's imaginative, Eric.  Slight difference is that Mercedes are spending money on their brand.  Advertising.  That's investment even if the money disappears.  

 

Genii wanted to buy something then sell it for more than they paid - capital investment.  Different animal altogether.  

 

Edit as Nustang is saying.

Edited by undersquare, 24 September 2013 - 15:42.

This doesn't make any sense though.  Genii is an investment firm--they have no product or service to sell, thus no reason to advertise through sponsorship.  From the beginning, I thought Renault made a mistake not selling Enstone to Prodrive.

To put it simplier - some guys has invested big money in Genii and are expecting a revenue while in reality Lotus doesn't bring dividends, only increasing debts. That's why Lopez wanted to sell it last year but can't find buyers or didn't agree the price.

 

Without stable financial backup Lotus are doomed.

 

Without stable financial backup Lotus are doomed.

I think you could say that about every single team.

Haha, well it's imaginative, Eric. Slight difference is that Mercedes are spending money on their brand. Advertising. That's investment even if the money disappears.

Genii wanted to buy something then sell it for more than they paid - capital investment. Different animal altogether.

It was not sustainable was it? An F1 team to an investor is a very, very expensive billboard. No matter how much sponsors are willing to pay to associate their brand with the team, it's almost certain that all of it will get used up in keeping that brand in the spotlight. Genii are probably struggling to get backers because of the additional overhead of paying off their investors, making the rates they charge to sponsors prohibitive.

I think you could say that about every single team.

Yes, but according to BE only 2-3 teams are really in trouble. Means other players more or less secured their future.

Yes, but according to BE only 2-3 teams are really in trouble. Means other players more or less secured their future.

 

1. Sauber

2. Lotus

3. Williams 

 

???   In that order perhaps.

Lopez admits interest in Renault

"Times of change usually provide an entry point. We believe there is a chance to enter the sport and build a platform that sort of has to reinvent itself. If we were to become part of F1 we could be part of that reinvention."

AUTOSPORT understands that if Lopez's bid is successful the team will continue to run under the 'Renault' moniker rather than have a new identity.

 

"If we were to do a deal, we would still be basing ourselves as a constructor's team," said Lopez. "That's a different kind of business from a start-up. For us, what would be important is to provide stability over time. The business opportunities in F1 lie very rarely in making money out of your team; they should lie in making money out of the business platform that you have.

 

"Put any seasoned executive into F1 and they turn into a big kid, essentially. It makes them much more approachable. So for us, F1 is an excellent business-to-business platform."

 

Basic principal was to use F1 as a shortcut to key decision makers, to drum up business for Genii Business Exchange - which is why they employed Jackie Stewart.

There was [allegedly] never any intention of trying to make money directly from the F1 team.

 

One of the reasons their financial situation appears much worse than (some) other teams, is because the money they've put into the team has been in the form of a loan, rather than payment for services, which means if they do at some point sell the team they could (theoretically) get their money back out. Obviously they want the team to be self sustaining, and if the money they've invested hasn't helped achieve their targets for the other side of the business, then there are real problems, but there's no way anyone outside of Genii can possibly make that judgement - does their investment in Lotus help generate business for Genii Business Exchange?

 

Red Bull GmbH pays over £100M a year to RBT/RBR, more in one year than Genii have invested the whole time they've owned their team, but Red Bull's objective are completely different, so the way the finances are structured are also completely different. 

 

Most F1 teams, from Lotus down are, or have at some point, been technically insolvent and relied on the continued support of the parent company - even Williams struggled financially for a number of years.  Lotus might not survive, or they might continue for years, but it's almost impossible to tell just by looking at their annual accounts because they're simply a snapshot of how things were on the 31st December the previous year - things can change very quickly in F1.

Rumours about late/delayed payments might be an indication of deep underlying problems, they might be temporary cashflow issues, or they might be down to sharp practices, but without current inside knowledge it's impossible to say.

 

Any team that relies solely/principally on the goodwill and support of a parent company is potentially vulnerable, and even if a team's finances look solid (on the surface), it doesn't mean the parent won't pull the plug.

1. Sauber

2. Lotus

3. Williams 

 

???   In that order perhaps.

My guess is Lotus, Marussia, FI.

Sauber has already secured it's future.

So do I understand it correctly that if Lotus do sign a $100 million deal (for example) tomorrow, all of that will first go to pay off Genii's loan principal and interest before the team can spend it on salary and R&D?

How big are sponsorship deals typically? How much is Vodafone paying McLaren as the title sponsor for example? Anyone know?

How big are sponsorship deals typically? How much is Vodafone paying McLaren as the title sponsor for example? Anyone know?

According to Marketing Week, about £75 million per year: http://www.marketing...4006000.article

Edited by Amphicar, 28 September 2013 - 18:05.

Boullier has a guest column in Autosport this week, in which he says that an investment deal with Infinity is 98 per cent done.

Boullier has a guest column in Autosport this week, in which he says that an investment deal with Infinity is 98 per cent done.

 

In other words, they still haven't got the money...

After all this while, you would think that they would not pull anymore of that 98% and 99%. For God's sake, they already announced many months back that a deal with Inifinity has been made. Yet we are waiting for ages for the deal to be really signed. At this point, they should talk about it only if it is 100% signed.

Boullier has a guest column in Autosport this week, in which he says that an investment deal with Infinity is 98 per cent done.

 

Does that mean that only the dots of letter 'i' are missing from the signature? This must be the longest signing event in history!

Kimi is driving for free. The guys who spam the money myth probably have some ulterior motives for spreading their agenda on the line.

Now Lopez is saying Kimi returned to F1 for the money because he won't continue racing for free for Lotus next year. I wonder if Boullier is working for free too, or is he in F1 "just for the money".

Genii seems to have gambled on loaning a lot of money to the team to reach short-term competitiveness, and asumed they can sell the team quick and extract the profits. However even though the results have come, sponsors and would-be buyers have seen through this plan and are playing the waiting game. Without the senior tech staff and a star driver the valuation must be tanking.