Webber: Quality of the Formula 1 grid is dropping [merged topic]

I think it looks worse because has beens like Massa are filling some of the better seats and have done so since 2006! Add that the midfield teams are no longer manufacturer supported so they have less room to accommodate drivers without cash.

TBH Bottas, Maldonado, Di Resta, Hulkenberg, Bianchi, Vergne, Ricciardo are all drivers who are treading water in search of a top seat. They aren't the Barrichellos and Trullis of 2007-09 who were satisfied with the midfield. As they lack wins, they lack much sponsorship and are easily replaced by new young talent or, more often, pay drivers.

Great drivers will rise to the top money or no. That is all that matters in the end.

That's not true and it's kind of a circular argument. People who have the potential to be the best drivers go into other sports or quit because they simply can't afford the cost. It's not as simple as saying a really fast driver will instantly stand-out and get filtered to the top of the system. If only that were true.

In my opinion the biggest change is that the new guys haven't spent hours behind the wheel pounding out testing laps. The testing bans have really put the new guys at a disadvantage.

28000km in one year

Wait a minute?

Webber is bitching about pay drivers with no championships entering F1 when he was one of them?

Well get out of the sport then old man if you don't like it...

I don't think Webber is wrong on this.

One of the things that hurts F1 these days are the lack of teams. Where we once had 14-15 teams with the lower ones obviously fighting to get through pre-qualifying, we now have 11, possibly 10 for 2014. Less seats means less chance for drivers to get onto the grid to show off their ability...or lack of it.

Edited by Eff One 2002, 11 August 2013 - 01:59.

This is the biggest change, in my opinion. Heikki Kovalainen drove over 28000km in one year as a test driver for Renault (equivalent to 4.5 seasons worth of driving). Lewis Hamilton did over 6000km in the 06-07 off-season for McLaren in the car which was being prepared for the 2007 season. Sebastien Vettel and Nico Rosberg also profited greatly from the old testing regulations.

Yup, this is one of the main problems for F1 at the moment. F1 was in a much healthier state back when there were more entrants than there were positions on the grid. There was a full field of 26 cars plus the others that didn't make the cut. The FIA should be working towards making this situation a reality again and drop their snobbish, elitist "only this team and that team are good enough for us. We don't need any more than 10 teams" attitude and mentality.

Yup, this is one of the main problems for F1 at the moment. F1 was in a much healthier state back when there were more entrants than there were positions on the grid. There was a full field of 26 cars plus the others that didn't make the cut. The FIA should be working towards making this situation a reality again and drop their snobbish, elitist "only this team and that team are good enough for us. We don't need any more than 10 teams" attitude and mentality.

Edited by Kalmake, 11 August 2013 - 12:17.

I got the feeling there was a lot of dead wood hanging around in 2002. Guys like Irvine, Panis, Frentzen, etc... We'd already seen the best of them. 2003, with Montoya, Raikkonen and Alonso really coming into their own was a breath of fresh air.

Edited by DutchQuicksilver, 11 August 2013 - 14:00.

Just have look at the 2007 grid, no weak driver whatsoever.

Edited by George Costanza, 12 August 2013 - 04:19.

Edited by V3TT3L, 12 August 2013 - 05:52.

I would agree with Mark, overall. However, I think part of it is that when he entered F1, the other drivers were more experienced and well-known than he was. At this point in his career, he is one of the more well known drivers, while young ones have come and gone in recent years. Perhaps, more than anything, his perspective has changed.

He is right on point about the challenge of a skilled young driver making it into F1 though.

All respectable names in 2002 apart from Yoong.

F1 today has more competition at the front but weak near the second half of the grid, 2002 was consistent all the way until one or two at the end.

I agree. If I were running a mid-grid team there are more names to pick from in 2002 (from a 2002 perspective) than in 2013. Out of the 2002 grid I think there were only 3 pay drivers: Bernoldi, Webber and Yoong. Jordan hired Sato to please Honda but don't think they paid for him, and its not like he didn't have the cred to back it up in the junior leagues.

On comparing himself with 2009 world champion Jenson Button...
"Unfortunately, when I got myself in a good car, I had Sebastian as a teammate. Jenson didn't have that at Brawn; he had Rubens"

I doubt he actually said that, source?

No, I don't think so.

Edited by Zippel, 12 August 2013 - 07:03.

I'm pretty such Webber contributed some cash, not much but some. Justin Wilson, his F3000 rival, definitely had to pay for his drive in 2003.

I'm pretty sure he didn't. I believe him being Australian and Stoddart as well helped a lot. Perhaps Renault contributed a bit, like they did with Alonso a year before? But there's no proof of that really.

Even then, I thought it was only the Yellow Pages arm of Telstra, no Australian company wanted anything to do with him

Plus nothing he brought was plastered all over the car so that looks more like personal sponsorship - whereas Yoongs Malaysian backing was out for everyone to see

Top drivers are better now You have Alonso, Kimi, Hamilton and Vettel all evenly matched. In 2002 it was Schumacher....GAP....then the like of Montoya and Coulthard.

Edited by George Costanza, 13 August 2013 - 02:10.

Webber did have yellow pages on his helmet during his earlier years but had Telstra during his year at Minardi. But yeah Telstra and Fosters was who I was referring to. If that's not a pay driver then okay. He certainly wasn't getting paid by Minardi to drive.

At some point in his career Webber was funded by an Aussie Golf Player.
Then Webber also helped Will Power financially.
Does it make Will Power a bad driver ?

Edited by Raelene, 13 August 2013 - 03:11.

Top drivers are better now You have Alonso, Kimi, Hamilton and Vettel all evenly matched. In 2002 it was Schumacher....GAP....then the like of Montoya and Coulthard.

so how exactly was F1 in a 'much healthier state' than now?

I'm all for more teams, but not like this.

Back in 2002, many were saying that MS winning is all just car. Same as they do about Vettel now. By results alone, I'd say things are exactly the same now as they were in 2002 Vettel...GAP....then the likes of Fernando, Kimi and Lewis (in no particular order). And if you want to dig beyond the results - well, there are many ways to skin that cat.

On comparing himself with 2009 world champion Jenson Button...
"Unfortunately, when I got myself in a good car, I had Sebastian as a teammate. Jenson didn't have that at Brawn; he had Rubens"

Only stupid people said that.

Sadly what he is really saying is " Unfortunately, when I got myself in a good car, I still wasn't good enough"
I like Mark but he isn't WDC material

Back in 2002, many were saying that MS winning is all just car. Same as they do about Vettel now. By results alone, I'd say things are exactly the same now as they were in 2002 Vettel...GAP....then the likes of Fernando, Kimi and Lewis (in no particular order). And if you want to dig beyond the results - well, there are many ways to skin that cat.

I'm pretty sure he didn't. I believe him being Australian and Stoddart as well helped a lot. Perhaps Renault contributed a bit, like they did with Alonso a year before? But there's no proof of that really.

On a related note, I find it quite humorous to hear Webbers complaints/claims that he didn't pay his was into F1 and it was so much harder for him because he was Australian. The facts are, he either paid his way into the Minardi drive, or was given it because of his nationality.

Edited by Zippel, 14 August 2013 - 03:28.

Apparently you never saw 1998 season where Michael was in the title fight vs very fast Mac, or even in 2000, where McLarens had the edge in race trim.

Really? had he bit a more lucky in 2010, you would say he is not WDC worthy?

I name it: he was good enough for an odd WDC if circumstances really favoured him, but he was not good enough to be a consistent WDC contender.

I agree. Webber's a mid-rate driver at best. The only year he came close to winning was one where he had all the luck in the world in terms of reliability.

Vettel's wiped the floor with Webber in three of the last four seasons. Webber has one of the worst records records v his team mate this year. He's been beaten by driver's in slower cars. The man is more than a little bitter about that. If Mark's so fast you'd expect him to outqualify seb at least once wouldn't you?

Truth is, he's a mid-rank peddler at best and is getting too old to keep even that up. Be interested to see what will happen if someone genuinely quick gets in the same car as vettel.