Was Hailwood really that good?

This is why Read is disliked

http://www.iom1960.com/ivy/ivy.html

 

Following Ivy's 125cc world championship win in 1967, the Yamaha factory decided Ivy should win both 125 and 250 crowns in 1968. Ivy persuaded Yamaha to let Read win the 125 championship. This was typical of Bill's sense of fair play. As Yamaha were likely to pull out of racing at the end of the season, Read ignored team orders in the latter part of the season and won both championships.

This is why Read is disliked

 

http://www.iom1960.com/ivy/ivy.html

Just been to studley to pick some bits up passed the spot where Mike was taken from us what a waste. He was and still is the best to all those who saw him.

Firstly an admission, I'm a fan of Mike the Bike having seen him first in the sixties on singles and finally on multis on his return to the Island. As to the greatest it's an impossible question which has no answer but he rode all types of bikes often at the same meeting with gear levers on both sides, some up for up and some up for down, and more than often beat the specialists.

My greatest memory of Mike is from the 1967 Junior - with friends I was sitting on the bank at the bottom of Barregarrow, legs dangling roadside (can't do it now) and the expectation was incredible. I'm pretty sure that Ago was first through and he was fast but there was a hint of the throttle being rolled, just. Then we heard the scream of the 296 six and Mike was coming! He burst into view, suspension bottoming out, using all the road and more. We pulled our legs out of the way, felt the wind on our faces and then watched Mike going up the road towards Kirkmichael in the gutter, dirt flying everywhere, with his right shoulder and hip smashing into the overhanging foliage and the Honda beneath him pushed away from the trees. No hesitation in the engine note, full chat all the way! He broke the outright lap record on that standing start first lap and we saw why.

I did a bit of racing in the Island myself and often thought about that episode as I went through Barregarrow Crossroads...

Great story & description, I wasn't there but could picture it as if I was!

I was once told by a history prof that dabbling in counterfactual history leads only to madness.  Although he was clearly on to something, I can't help thinking about all the talented working class blokes who were forced out of racing through a lack of funds or domestic pressures or umpteen other reasons; how many of these I wonder would have gone on to great things if they too had recieved the lavish support handed out to SMBH right from the start?

Edited by Russell Burrows, 07 October 2013 - 12:06.

I was once told by a history prof that dabbling in counterfactual history leads only to madness.  Although he was clearly on to something, I can't help thinking about all the talented working class blokes who were forced out of racing through a lack of funds or domestic pressures or umpteen other reasons; how many of these I wonder would have gone on to great things if they too had recieved the lavish support handed out to SMBH right from the start?

You mean like they do in spain with all these racing academies thats where all the spanish talent and others comes from these days, But i still don't think that we have had anyone all round that has been better than mike the Bike, 

I was once told by a history prof that dabbling in counterfactual history leads only to madness.  Although he was clearly on to something, I can't help thinking about all the talented working class blokes who were forced out of racing through a lack of funds or domestic pressures or umpteen other reasons; how many of these I wonder would have gone on to great things if they too had recieved the lavish support handed out to SMBH right from the start?

SMBH didn't have to race.  All the financial help in the world can't make a winner out of someone who hasn't got the ability or the desire to win.  We often hear about Stan Hailwood's wealth, but was he that rich?  His bike shop disappeared without trace, like Pride & Clarke.  I've read that the huge white van the team used, cost a few quid and was painted up to give the impression of wealth.  Much of Hailwood's initial success came from the bike tuner he used (I forget his name).  A tuner anyone could also employ.

Hailwood wasn't the only rider to start with an advantage.  Sheene's father got him 'works' Bultacos.  Rossi must have been helped by his father, as was Fogarty & Surtees. Chas Mortimer's father had a racing school.

I suppose those who really had nothing, were those who arrived in Europe from Australia, Canada and South Africa and went on to become champions.  But none were better than SMBH, were they?

  Much of Hailwood's initial success came from the bike tuner he used (I forget his name).  A tuner anyone could also employ.

 

 

 

Bill Lacey , who came out of a 25 year retirement to tune the machines 

 

 

You can never say for certain who was the greatest because of different era's and technology but i'd say Hailwoods achievements were the greatest and will remain so.

I was once told by a history prof that dabbling in counterfactual history leads only to madness.  Although he was clearly on to something, I can't help thinking about all the talented working class blokes who were forced out of racing through a lack of funds or domestic pressures or umpteen other reasons; how many of these I wonder would have gone on to great things if they too had recieved the lavish support handed out to SMBH right from the start?

You cannot buy ability, talent and bravery.  Only when you have these in abundance does access to money become an advantage.

Edited by RC162, 07 October 2013 - 18:28.

Article on SMBH with information on his early years - and sex life !

http://h2g2.com/appr..._entry/A9405119

SMBH didn't have to race.  All the financial help in the world can't make a winner out of someone who hasn't got the ability or the desire to win.  We often hear about Stan Hailwood's wealth, but was he that rich?  His bike shop disappeared without trace, like Pride & Clarke.  I've read that the huge white van the team used, cost a few quid and was painted up to give the impression of wealth.  Much of Hailwood's initial success came from the bike tuner he used (I forget his name).  A tuner anyone could also employ.

 

Hailwood wasn't the only rider to start with an advantage.  Sheene's father got him 'works' Bultacos.  Rossi must have been helped by his father, as was Fogarty & Surtees. Chas Mortimer's father had a racing school.

 

I suppose those who really had nothing, were those who arrived in Europe from Australia, Canada and South Africa and went on to become champions.  But none were better than SMBH, were they?

Very dodgy on the actualite - further reading called for.  What is clear though is he couldn't have done it without Stan's money.

You cannot buy ability, talent and bravery.  Only when you have these in abundance does access to money become an advantagMein Gott

Mein Gott, platitudinous or what..... Without the opportunity to demonstrate his undoubted talents we would never have heard of him.

Very dodgy on the actualite - further reading called for.  What is clear though is he couldn't have done it without Stan's money.

Can we have *your* facts?

Who was Bill Ivy's dad?

 

Bill began racing at the age of 17 on a 50cc Itom. His club was the Racing 50 Club, which later became the New Era Motorcycle Club. He was sponsored by Chisholms of Maidstone and his first race was at Brands Hatch. In only his first year of racing he captured the short circuit lap record for the 50cc class.

Plenty of riders get family money/help for a year or two.  If they've not made it by then, that's their lot.

(Unless you're Danny Webb, who was riding in MotoGP for years without success)

Mein Gott, platitudinous or what..... Without the opportunity to demonstrate his undoubted talents we would never have heard of Hitler.

Platitudinous ?  Is that the name of that weird Australian mammal ? 

Having been privileged to see Hailwood in the 60s and witness his return to the Island in the 70s the simple and correct answer to the question is YES he was.  Despite the hints at Stan "buying" his success its has o be said that absolutely no amount of money could buy that sort of talent.  Show me anyone who could stay away from top level racing for 11 years and come back and win.  Stan didn't buy that.

I've read a few snippets about Taveri and John Cooper riding Mike's feared 500cc Honda at Zandvoort and Snetterton respectively, can anyone put some meat on the bones of these rarely mentioned episodes please.
It seems they were beat by this machine yet Jim Redman reckons it was very good.

I think Cooperman rode it at Cadwell and the gearbox countershaft broke. Was quoted as saying 'thank f... for that!'

HW

"Who was Bill Ivy's dad?"

Maurice (Bill) Ivy, was an engineer employed by the Noakes family's forge and agricultural business at Pye Corner, Ulcombe.

As I'm not 100 years old and wasn't around for the majority of years that SMBH was at the top, I bought a book about him.  "A Man Called Mike" by Christopher Hilton, published in 1992.  Although Hilton isn't a motorcycle racing journalist, he did get a lot of cooperation from Hailwood's family and some of the people who rode against Mike.

A lot of stuff was news to me.  For example, Hailwood worked with Percy Tait, who spent time teaching him how to race, both before and after Hailwood had his first races.

The tale of Stan making Mike pay for his bikes from savings and winnings was stretched - a lot.  Stan had been a grass track racer and was known for his immaculate turnout and showmanship.  He insisted Mike was the same.  Once Stan realised he had a winner on his hands, he got spending, because every win helped sales at his bike shops.  Kings of Oxford was a large company with shops all over the country.  Stan would watch races and buy up bikes that he thought were faster than his own.  He didn't always pay for them - as John Surtees discovered.  Buying these bikes created a double effect, Mike had the fastest and his competitors didn't!  Stan also employed mechanics to travel to races with Mike.  If Mike crashed or had a problem - they'd roll out replacement bike.  Other riders couldn't match that.

It's likely that Mike's rides on Honda and MV were obtained by Stan offering to sell road bikes from those manufacturers.  It's believed 1,000 MV's got Mike a works MV.  The truth will never be known.

Most of the riders interviewed - except Derek Minter, are happy to say Mike was better than they were and earned his place at the top by ability.  SMBH was the only person to ride 3 GPs in a day for Honda - sometimes winning all 3.  I don't believe anyone before or since has equalled that kind of performance.

It's an interesting book, well worth buying if you've a interest in The Greatest.

  SMBH was the only person to ride 3 GPs in a day for Honda - sometimes winning all 3. 

Ah, not really...

Indeed, Redman first on a Honda at Assen '64. Mike did the Honda treble at the Czech in '66 and the Dutch in '67, as well as the 1967 Isle of Man TT, but also won three races at a meeting in the Isle of Man in 1961, winning 125 and 250 on Hondas and the Senior on the Manx.

But several riders used to ride three races a day. As Bella has correctly observed, hard men.

Not so sure about Graziano really doing a huge amount to help Valentino financially,in Vale's own book all you tend to get is that Graziano simply used his knowledge of people to put Valentino and themselves in touch with people. I don't think Graziano was a very rich man. I am sure he spent a lot on his minibike career perhaps, but not when Vale was past Sport Production, his talent then was obvious.

But what he was rich in was spirit and a very real idea that Vale should find out for himself what he wanted, he started on karts remember not bikes.  And still has a love of rally and racing, as I am sure will see later in his career.

But his rides from his post Sport Production days were on talent alone, he was picked up by the right people early on, but also knew (maybe with some people who were experienced obviously) who he wanted to be with engineer wise. He was with different teams in 125, 250 and 500.  All from himself and his fathers (friends) knowledge, not through money.

I bought a book too the other day, it was about the winning bikes in GP racing. And almost half of it is full of Agostini, and more than half of it is full of MV Agusta!  Weird how most people remember Mike riding Honda's isn't it!

I think I know the book you mean, Chunder, and for my money it was an opportunity fumbled, though now made good with 'Classic Motorcycle Race Engines'. KC is one of the greats, and he loses no points from me by citing BMEP figures.

Hailwood the best? For me, from where I was and am standing, no question. I'm sure the old codgers of Bergamo have a different view. Individual memories do it for me:

Hailwood, 1961, 1965 and 1967 TTs

John Cooper, Mallory Park 1971

Gregg Hansford, Brands Hatch 1978

Kenny Roberts, Jarama 1978

Jarno Saarinen, Silverstone 1972

And so on.

I copied the following text from a post I put on here a few years ago - and so was delighted this week to see GD66's picture of Read on the bike!

I have always been intrigued by a relatively unknown chap who bought a pair of bikes fromTom Kirby's stable - a 7R and G50 (pre-metisse models) around about 1969 time. He was an Austrian by the name of Christian Godetz, a garage owner I believe, who was living in Pontypridd (South Wales) at the time. He rode them once himself at a club meeting at Llandow, then disappeared from the radar. The same year (1969?) Phil Read borrowed the G50 from him to compete in a "clash of the titans" type single-cylinder race at Oulton Park against Mike Hailwood and John Cooper, who I think were both Seeley mounted. Out of interest I have Googled his name, but drew a blank. I wonder to this day, what became of those illustrious machines?
 
Now when we were waiting to board the ferry for the Classic TT last month, Phil Read was in the van just immediately in front of us and we struck up conversation. I asked him about this very race - and more to the point, about the bike. His rather curt reply threw me somewhat - "don't remember that, why would I want to borrow a bike? I've ridden so many bikes over the years!"

Christian Godetz lived in Pontypridd, his Garage/paint shop was in a little village called Penrhifer.

I worked for Chris for a couple of years and remember the Oulton park incident,

He had 2 lovely bikes the G50 and 7R, the 7R was the very first bike I raced at Llandow and

had a 10th place with it

Phil did borrow Chris's bike for the race, as Chris spent many an hour on the phone to him as he was then living

in Guernsey at the time.

We went to Oulton with the bike and Phil had 4 or 5 bikes to try out and he selected Chris's bike

for the race.

The race was stopped for some reason I can't remember why, when it was restarted Phil did not

want to put more fuel to keep the weight down as much as possible.

The race was going well as the lead changed many times but Phil ran out of fuel Ithink 2 laps from

the end, it was a good job I was in pit lane when Phil cruised in as he got off the bike he let it go

so I managed to stop it hitting the deck and he stormed off (He's not the most pleasant of guys)

as I asked him when he visited Aberdare Park some years ago did he recall riding Chris's bike and

he said he did not remember, i did remind him about the incident and he just shrugged his shoulders.

Chris sold the G50 to some lad from North wales but without the shaflietner gearbox and the fontana

brake which was sold on, I'm not sure where the 7R went though but I remember Tony Jeffries riding

it at Cadwell.

Chris changed his ways not sure what he was doing but he moved down south not sure if it was Portsmouth

or Plymouth doing something with boats and he past away some years ago.

I do have a photo of me tinkering on the G50 but not sure how to put it on.

Brilliant !

Welcome to the forum Rene

I used to marshal at Brands in the early sixties. My favourite rider was Derek Minter and I thought he was just about the best of the lot of them.

Apparently he only raced in the UK or close Europe saying he was a professional rider and had to make a living at it.

I often wonder if things had been different and he got hold of some good factory rides what he might have achieved.

Edited by drumwrecker, 21 December 2013 - 23:54.

'Was Hailwood the best?'

The simple answer is NO, I was.

I am also a multibillionaire, can walk on water, cure the sick with one hand pass, can predict the future, own every bike I ever coveted and am the nicest person that ever existed.

Some of this is untrue (well most, OK all of it) but as with any 'were they the best' it is a question without answer unless you base it on a criteria.

Did they win most world championships?

Did they win most TTs?

Did they win most percentage of GPs contested? etc

However it does bring out many memories and prejudices. I am of the opinion that Phil Read was certainly one of the greatest, so was Harold Daniel, so was Ago, so was etc etc. As the memories fade so does the ability to recall the riders bad races or seasons. Sheen was almost unbeatable for a couple of seasons but as soon as other able riders had similar machines he 'unbeatability' soon faded.

So I am of the opinion that this is an unanswerable question, but keep the nostalgia associated with the debate coming as I am not sure we will see a golden era of racing again as it sinks, inexorably, beneath the brown tide of corporate crap

The things is, I tried to explain this to someone the other day

Can you imagine Stoner coming back in 2022 and winning a few races on the bikes then?

It is fairly obvious Casey was the best outright talent in bike racing for the time before he packed in, and though he was a strange soul that fact remains.

Mike was clearly very good, but the fact he came back, rode a totally different bike, won big races on it and still had the ability to come back after 10 years is staggering. I klnow it was a different level and not GP bikes, but still the facts remain he did it.

it is a fact most modern fans have littel clue of, like Schwantz coming back in I dont know 2005? 

I know bikes hadnt evolved a guge amount at the level he was riding at then, put him on a 500 nad it might have been different. But to win a TT and the race of the year in such style was amazing at his age.

I never saw Mike race, and can only see glimpses online and read about stuff, but he simply is imperisou over his peers in my eyes, even Ago.

Remember guys, this thread was never intended to be a "was Hailwood the best" question. We all know about the comeback wins, world titles and heroic rides. It's stuff i'd never heard of such as the "clash of the titans" Oulton meeting that i've found most interesting. Drumwrecker, if you marshalled at Brands in the early sixties did you ever get to see Minter race Hailwood? Did Minter ever beat him, never beat him, regularly beat him, thrash him? Again, i'm not trying to stir up a debate on who was best, Hailwood or Minter, just wondering how they matched up.

Chunder27, don't forget Hailwood won the '79 senior TT on a Suzuki so he was useful on a 2 stroke too. The film on Youtube of the Post TT win on the Ducati was great. John Cowies bike was so much faster down the back straight i couldn't see where Hailwood was going to pass him as he kept losing so much ground there but when he made his move and took the lead the overtake was so smooth and clean, not a desperate lunge. Honestly, i got quite emotional watching it. No wonder grown men were in tears at his comeback wins.  

Can't get the pox quote box to work ( ) but Schwantz rode the Suzuka 8 Hour this year, Chunder.

As I remember they were of equal talent and when on similar bikes nobody could be certain who would win. They both rode various capacity bikes of two stroke and four stroke very successfully.  I think Derek Minter had his own haulage firm at the rear end of his career but from what little I know at one time his earnings were from racing with no bank roll behind him and when he did get that works ride with duke's Gilera he suffered a broken back and that must have affected Duke's and Gilera's prospects. Who knows what might have been if that accident at Brands hadn't happened. All I know is he had great style and invariably suffered a bad start and had to plough his way through the field and hopefully win but the competition was pretty good at the time so it didn't always happen. Happy days. the sound of 30 odd big singles approaching Druids on the fist lap will be in my memory forever.

Schwantz did ride the 8 hour,l but he only rode for a few laps at the end!  Kagster and Haga did the donkey work!

Kev was a bit off the pace, but fair play to him he wasnt that far off considering he is an old man now! lol

For someone like me who never saw Mike, Telbert I was getting a bit emotional too!  People go on about Sheene and fair enough but let's face it he was as much of a celeb as he was a bike racer,and he was also rather disliked by many!  He won his stuff on the best bike and crashed or struggled the rest of the time! But one cannot argue with what he did for safety, riding and riders representation where along with Roberts they largely revolutionised modern bike racing. I just dont as a fan rate him as highly talent wise as some do.

Mike went about it in a more old fasioned way

And drum the sound of big singles used to make me bringe on test days, as you just knew the oil flag would come out and you would lose an hour!  Sorry but they were a pain in the arse!! lol

If I'm being totally honest I was a Read fan in the 60s, and at times i was perhaps a bit resentful of Mike winning too much.  Nevertheless I had enormous respect for him and two memories stand out.  

The first was at the '67 UGP; he and Ago were neck and neck for the title and Mike was on the 500-4.  Unbeknown to him, Ago's clutch went yards from the start but I was at the Quarries on the first lap and to say Mike was pushing would have been something of an understatement as he scattered the marshalls on the exit.  After that he could take his time and even waved to apologise next time round.  Ago, to his credit, didn't just park it but replaced the clutch and tried his best - I'm not sure that would happen these days?

The other memory was at the '79 TT.  I was at the bottom of Barregarrow, in those good old days you could stand on the inside of the course looking directly up the road.  On the first lap three riders came into view and half way down the hill the one at the back pulled out and took the other two (one may have been Graeme Crosby??), and flattened it through the corner.  Scared me to death! Fantastic, and I was sure Mike would win but I think he was pipped by Alex George, by a handful of seconds.

I still always go across to the Ulster and sometimes the NW but no longer the TT.  I know it's a lot faster now but I can only see it as a shadow of its former self.  The whole experience in the 60s was amazing with works machinery, far less constraint about where you could watch, morning and evening practice, minimal corporate crap, bikes parked the whole length of the prom, fun and games outside the Rendevouz, Castrol R, the list goes on and on.   I know that the Ulster is also modified road bikes, but Dundrod is an awesome circuit and still very laid back though the restricted areas do grow year by year.  Best of all though it's a race with the first man being the leader, nice and simple for an old sod with serious short term memory problems. 

As for how Mike would fare today I have no idea.  I suspect that only being allowed to ride in one race a day might quickly lead to boredom setting in?  Who knows?

 the sound of 30 odd big singles approaching Druids on the fist lap will be in my memory forever.

Isn't it strange, now we don't get to hear many 2 strokes at Moto GP, WSB and BSB meetings i love to hear a grid full of 2 strokes screaming away together, yet back in the 80's when all we seemed to get was grids full of 2 strokes i yearned to hear a few 4 strokes. Must be a case of absence making the heart grow fonder. Thank God for classic/vintage meetings where we get a good old mixture. While i'm straying off topic can anyone here remember some lp's that were released, probably back in the 70's, that featured commentary and sound clips of bikes at various TT races. I think the commentary was done by Murray Walker but the highlights were the sound clips, Guzzis, Benellis, Hondas, MVs etc

Sound stories I still have them on vinyl, you can still get them on CD from Duke video people I think?

http://www.dukevideo...strict=&start=0

Hi Telbert,

It was the Stanley Schofield Sound Stories in LP and EP form. Look it up on Google. Mine are still in the loft warping away.

I always marvelled how Murray Walker never made a mistake on them.

As far as who was best, its a futile subject as non of us will ever know. But what fantastic riders we witnessed from all over the planet and long may their memories

last and thanks to this forum's amazing photos.

Best books subject, I have just got 'Paddy Who' from SA and there are some forgotten characters in Paddy Drivers time.

Merry Christmas.

Roy

Sound Stories, that's the ones, thanks for the info and links 

Drifting towards getting back on topic on the Duke website it says in the info for the Derek Minter - King of Brands book "By 1965 he held the lap record for virtually every British short circuit" which surprised me because his name seems to be synonymous with Brands and i always had him down as being quick there but average everywhere else (But i was born in '63 so never got to see him race).

Sound stories I still have them on vinyl, you can still get them on CD from Duke video people I think?

Hi there.

you can convert them yourself to mp3 etc there is a vynil player with the stick adapter

to convert it.

Hope this helps.

I think Cooperman rode it at Cadwell and the gearbox countershaft broke. Was quoted as saying 'thank f... for that!'
 
HW

Edited by bella, 06 March 2014 - 20:46.

I'm pretty sure that John Cooper rode the Ken Sprayson framed Honda, which was already a improvement compared to the original one 

I'm pretty sure that John Cooper rode the Ken Sprayson framed Honda, which was already a improvement compared to the original one 

I remember screeching to a halt and turning round when I spotted it on a paddock stand outside Coop's old garage on Ashbourne Road.  

Can't verify the frame though alas.

As Murray Walker said "The greatest motorcycle racer who ever lived"

Wednesday 26th March BT Sport watch the S M B Hailwood Story.

One quick aside. This is the nostalgia forum. Why are people almost prohibiting themselves to make comparisons between era's? That is what history is all about, isn't it? You look back, compare, try to analyze what advantages and disadvantages generations had in comparison, and the same goes for drivers.

Why would we not compare Young Magnussen with Aerton Senna? Is it not very educational for younger readers to know that Senna drove in a Toleman in his first year, that could be compared with a Force India now? So in that respect, historically speaking, you should take that in account in evaluating Magnussens debut?

I never saw Mike Hailwood race, and I really like to read more about him here. 

Thank you for not smoking (threads).

I think you'll find it's all been said before - but as far as I'm concerned there's good reason not to compare across different era. Riding ability could be considered a given or indeed the almost sublime with certain "more than gifted" riders, each to their own era, but the machines are very different. Look at the 60+ GP's won by the Rainey Lawson Roberts trio on what is euphemistically called "the unrideables" & we can only wonder how Ago, Read or Hailwood would have coped. Personally it's a pointless discussion & maybe you'll get no takers because they agree!

As for Kevin Magnussen. You're picking out a young Senna as a comparison & again, it's wrong. There have been bucket loads of dominant talent from lower categories that have disappeared in F1 & Kevin is by no means the first driver to score points at the first attempt. His time will come, I'm sure, but do you remember who the most successful F3 driver is/was (most wins)?

There's a massive technical difference as with the bikes, for the cars too - Manual gear changes, heel & toe, no rev limiter.  

Just a point of view, mind 

hi as some one,myself pete taylor and my mate john cowie,who raced with mike ,myself at 78 tt and donnington f1 round,and silverstone round,john winner at mallory 2nd hailwood ,read third,,john winner at silverstone,i dont think you guys really knew how good he was,till you have been there  and done it i think you should close the book now ,mike was the best,ask john he beat him twice,but he said he was the best,so unless you where there on the start line lets here no more       peter