Sebastian Vettel: More Wins than any Driver on the Grid

Point tally doesnt say it all. 1993 first few races made a huge points difference between Senna and Schumacher and a lot of it was due to chance, not just Senna's great performance. First, Senna closed the door on Schumacher in South Africa and took him out of the race. Then he got two rain race wins when he had great TC and Schumi didn't have it. Senna himself said his Portugal 1985 win had much more value than 1993 Donnington because of TC. I am not saying those two rain wins weren't impressive, but Schumacher simply had no chance without TC. Look at 3-4 rain races from '91 and '92 where both drove and see what happened... Then in Monaco Schumacher had a failure while in the lead and Senna inherited the win.

 

I think if the start of the season wasn't so bad for Schumacher and so amazingly good for Senna, Schumi would have once more shown he is the better campaign fighter. Senna had his magic moments, but over a season campaign monsters like Prost and Schumacher had a good chance against him in equal machinery.

This misses the point that Schumacher had the better engine for 9 races, yet Schumacher was not able to outperform Senna with his advantage, like Senna was able to do to Schumacher early on.

Schumi did make mistakes that year, I know he did not have traction control but he still crashed at Donnington, if he could not win he could have least got some points if he would not have crashed. He also collided with Berger and Hill in Japan. Fair is fair Senna was at fault for his DNF in Monza and he did push his car too hard in Canada leading to a DNF, but the McLaren was horribly off-pace that weekend.

Senna lost points also, at Imola he lost a 2nd place for example to mechanical failure. 

I actually agree Donnington 1993 is not as good as Portugal 1985, or for that matter some of Senna's other drives.

Edited by sennafan24, 18 October 2013 - 21:03.

Schumi is the only driver who won the French GP 8 times (Magny Cours), the San Marino GP 7 times (Imola) and also the Canadian GP another 7 times (Gilles Villeneueve)

 

Quite impressive! 

 

Sorry, I forgot to answer your first question... I hope so but if Kimi wins, I won't complain.  

Even in the face of something quite as impressive, you'll have fools suggesting that Schumacher was a talentless hack... I knew someone on another forum who is a very good/ sober person, yet when it comes to Schumacher, you can't expect a neutral viewpoint from him, and it always comes down to Adelaide/ Jerez/ Rascasse! He himself has a chuckle at it, he's that nice a person... but seriously, i don't know why he has a problem admitting that Schumacher earned most of his stats and is easily head and shoulders above a lot of legends of GP racing.

Vettel is quite some way off... thanks mnmracer! However, i have no doubt that if anyone from the current lot, Vettel has a chance at getting many records swinging his way. However, as i observed above about Schumacher... the same is true about Vettel. He's only been in a competitive car for 5 years (including this one) and only 6 full seasons in F1. He's about to be crowned the 4th time and he was runner up once, and yet you have some absolute crazies decrying him for all different reasons. I enjoyed watching the best conduct his business when Schumacher went on to win his 5, and so far i feel privileged to be able to see another master handing their arses to the competition now. I feel for Alonso... he deserved the title in 2010 and 2012... either would have been fine... but those who think that Vettel was just plain lucky, to put it politely, they need medical care alright. Heck in 1998, Hakkinen benefited at Spa and Suzuka, but did that make him less of a driver? Schumacher didn't think so... he raced Senna/ Prost at their best and he feared Hakkinen. Go figure!

I sincerely think that Vettel may go on to win another 2-3 titles apart from this one... and another 30-40 odd races to his name. I sincerely don't think anyone could will themselves like Schumacher did over the years, and still was "the benchmark!". Let us see what it comes to... as it is, this talented driver (and few others) are the silver lining to this screwed up formula with DRS, KERS and anaemic engines.

Edited by garagetinkerer, 18 October 2013 - 21:24.

This misses the point that Schumacher had the better engine for 9 races, yet Schumacher was not able to outperform Senna with his advantage, like Senna was able to do to Schumacher early on.

 

Schumi did make mistakes that year, I know he did not have traction control but he still crashed at Donnington, if he could not win he could have least got some points if he would not have crashed. He also collided with Berger and Hill in Japan. Fair is fair Senna was at fault for his DNF in Monza and he did push his car too hard in Canada leading to a DNF, but the McLaren was horribly off-pace that weekend.

 

Senna lost points also, at Imola he lost a 2nd place for example to mechanical failure. 

 

I actually agree Donnington 1993 is not as good as Portugal 1985, or for that matter some of Senna's other drives.

Well if you look at the table from Monaco onwards (when Schumacher had TC), Ayrton never finished in front of Michael until Japan and Australia where he went in God mode again . The problem is, when Michael was doing better than Ayrton he rarely had the chance to win against the Williams drivers, there was not enough chaotic action (like start of the season) for that to happen. Still he was on the podium every time he finished. I like your balanced opinion by the way, it is very reasonable. Just I differ about Senna being patient enough to maintain a good performance over 16 races compared to Schumacher... I was a big fan of Senna those years, watched 1992 onwards and it was hit or miss - disappointment for a number of races and then an explosive one where he does his miracles. I think it had to do both with his affinity for gambling with strategy and also he often lost interest if he wasn't fighting for the win.

 Just I differ about Senna being patient enough to maintain a good performance over 16 races compared to Schumacher... 

That is actually something I noticed with Senna, he did make the odd mistake that was silly in the days of 1988 to around 1991 when he tightened up. I rate Senna above Schumi, no doubt. But I can see why others do not, and that is a reason even I would struggle to defend to a great extent. Schumi rarely got caught up in silly stuff like Ayrton did in the late 80's

I think the dip and peaks in Senna's performances in 92 and 93 were car related personally and not a reflection of his actual talent as a driver. If you look at 1991 (his best year in my view) he shows a level of consistent driving right up there with Schumi, Seb, Alonso or Prost at their consistent best. His 1992 is very underrated, as you said about Schumi's 1993, I do not think the points tell the full story.

Brazil 1991, IMO, was better than Donnington 1993. When it comes to pressure, I think the best driver under pressure is Ayrton over Michael.

Today's drivers is a bit complex, but Fernando is very good under pressure, except that he can crack under it and make some slight mistakes like he did in end of 2012 season where he perhaps was a bit worn out. But his 2012 season was like Schu's '98 season or Senna's '92-'93 season.

Seb's under pressure hasn't been fully tested yet, except for 2012. And he did a fine job at that, but he's was being the hunter that season, hunting down Fernando Alonso, except in the four races of the season. But he had excellent form.

Edited by George Costanza, 18 October 2013 - 23:30.

Even in the face of something quite as impressive, you'll have fools suggesting that Schumacher was a talentless hack... I knew someone on another forum who is a very good/ sober person, yet when it comes to Schumacher, you can't expect a neutral viewpoint from him, and it always comes down to Adelaide/ Jerez/ Rascasse! He himself has a chuckle at it, he's that nice a person... but seriously, i don't know why he has a problem admitting that Schumacher earned most of his stats and is easily head and shoulders above a lot of legends of GP racing.

 

Vettel is quite some way off... thanks mnmracer! However, i have no doubt that if anyone from the current lot, Vettel has a chance at getting many records swinging his way. However, as i observed above about Schumacher... the same is true about Vettel. He's only been in a competitive car for 5 years (including this one) and only 6 full seasons in F1. He's about to be crowned the 4th time and he was runner up once, and yet you have some absolute crazies decrying him for all different reasons. I enjoyed watching the best conduct his business when Schumacher went on to win his 5, and so far i feel privileged to be able to see another master handing their arses to the competition now. I feel for Alonso... he deserved the title in 2010 and 2012... either would have been fine... but those who think that Vettel was just plain lucky, to put it politely, they need medical care alright. Heck in 1998, Hakkinen benefited at Spa and Suzuka, but did that make him less of a driver? Schumacher didn't think so... he raced Senna/ Prost at their best and he feared Hakkinen. Go figure!

 

I sincerely think that Vettel may go on to win another 2-3 titles apart from this one... and another 30-40 odd races to his name. I sincerely don't think anyone could will themselves like Schumacher did over the years, and still was "the benchmark!". Let us see what it comes to... as it is, this talented driver (and few others) are the silver lining to this screwed up formula with DRS, KERS and anaemic engines.

1998 could have been Schumacher's by a mile to be frank... Suzuka was an example of pressure getting to him. Spa '98 wasn't his fault. Had he won, I do not believe Mika would have caught him. But, Mika was faster than Michael over one lap. He didn't have the racecraft like Schu did. But he is one of my favorties to watch on a single lap. So smooth and extremely fast.

Brazil 1991, IMO, was better than Donnington 1993. When it comes to pressure, I think the best driver under pressure is Ayrton over Michael.

 

Bang on!

My favorite Senna drive, and probably my favorite drive ever 

Also agreed Seb is pretty good under pressure, the last race of 2010 was a real clutch performance from him, and Monza 2008 given his age was outstanding how he kept it together it wet conditions.

Edited by sennafan24, 18 October 2013 - 23:50.

1998 could have been Schumacher's by a mile to be frank... Suzuka was an example of pressure getting to him. Spa '98 wasn't his fault. Had he won, I do not believe Mika would have caught him. But, Mika was faster than Michael over one lap. He didn't have the racecraft like Schu did. But he is one of my favorties to watch on a single lap. So smooth and extremely fast.

Suzuka 1998... ahem, it was the car that died on him, and not the other way around. This is what Ferrari said... unless you work at Ferrari, i mean no offense, but just that they have more information than you do.

Hakkinen was very fast... outqualifying Senna on his debut and i'm pretty sure that Senna wouldn't have been amused one bit Schumacher is very underrated when it comes to one lap pace... mostly because he never had cars with absolute 1 lap pace except 2-3 seasons. How do you think he used to do many qualifying style laps in races, races which he went on to win when he shouldn't have had? Schumacher was one of the fastest ever when it came to outright pace... what set him apart from other fast drivers is the fact that he had an appreciation for limits. It is a little something he spent a lot of time trying to find out during free practices and sometimes even qualifying. Finding out the optimum speed was something no one did better than him, and that would explain the number of fastest laps (77 fastest laps... say that slowly to yourself you'll learn more about him) he had to his name compared to others...

Most wouldn't argue this when i say that the 2000 McLaren handled better, had better power and efficiency to go with, and yet who won?

I loved their dance together... the respect they had for each other is something you don't see these days anymore. Schumacher celebrated with Hakkinen (at the Karaoke bar where teams still hang out) when the latter won his titles, and Hakkinen did so when Schumacher won his. I seriously think that Hakkinen perhaps would have had more left in him had he not met with an accident a few years earlier. I think it robbed a bit of his longevity in the sport.

Anyhoo, let us stick to Vettel... What do you think of Vettel?

Suzuka 1998... ahem, it was the car that died on him, and not the other way around. This is what Ferrari said... unless you work at Ferrari, i mean no offense, but just that they have more information than you do.

 

Hakkinen was very fast... outqualifying Senna on his debut and i'm pretty sure that Senna wouldn't have been amused one bit Schumacher is very underrated when it comes to one lap pace... mostly because he never had cars with absolute 1 lap pace except 2-3 seasons. How do you think he used to do many qualifying style laps in races, races which he went on to win when he shouldn't have had? Schumacher was one of the fastest ever when it came to outright pace... what set him apart from other fast drivers is the fact that he had an appreciation for limits. It is a little something he spent a lot of time trying to find out during free practices and sometimes even qualifying. Finding out the optimum speed was something no one did better than him, and that would explain the number of fastest laps (77 fastest laps... say that slowly to yourself you'll learn more about him) he had to his name compared to others...

 

Most wouldn't argue this when i say that the 2000 McLaren handled better, had better power and efficiency to go with, and yet who won?

 

I loved their dance together... the respect they had for each other is something you don't see these days anymore. Schumacher celebrated with Hakkinen (at the Karaoke bar where teams still hang out) when the latter won his titles, and Hakkinen did so when Schumacher won his. I seriously think that Hakkinen perhaps would have had more left in him had he not met with an accident a few years earlier. I think it robbed a bit of his longevity in the sport.

 

Anyhoo, let us stick to Vettel... What do you think of Vettel?

yes, his car stalled and yes that's true, but I think he felt the pressure to get that title, which he did 2 years later in 2000. However, the Ferrari F300 simply was no match for the McLaren on pace alone... Now, as for Mika and Michael's one lap pace, Michael never quite was the absolute fastest driver, but he had a extremely high range of limit which he can touch that no other driver could. I believe Mika and Michael in the same car, it would be a dogfight in terms of one lap speed with Mika coming on top slightly. But I agree with you, Michael's consisency was quite unbelieveable. And yes the 2000 McLaren was the better car; faster car as well. (14 out of 17 Fastest laps explain why in 2000 season) However, Michael made the difference. And Mika amd Michael had such a respect for one another it was uncanny for the other drivers. But her's a thing; say Mika went to Williams from 1995-1997, would he beat Michael Schumacher, who was in the Benetton at the time, then Ferrari? I think Mika would have because Mika is much better than Damon Hill or Jacques..

As for Seb, his raw pace is like Mika and Michael, and has the ability to do so, but I think Fernando Alonso is a better driver as for as overall race skill. What he can do in a slower car is pretty extraordinary, he can put it in places where you would not think possible. Seb is wonderful and is about to be a four time WDC, but we'll see how it goes in 2014. Seb's run can't last forever, unless he's pulls a Phil Taylor on F1....

Edited by George Costanza, 19 October 2013 - 01:02.

It is highly unlikely that Vettel could match Schumacher's 91 wins. It would take him 5 more dominant seasons to even get close to that tally, and I don't see that happening.

VETTEL - 33
ALONSO - 32
HAMILTON - 22
RAIKKONEN - 20
BUTTON - 15

prediction:

Vettel - 52 (20 more seems about right, 3 more this season I reckon, one race is bound to throw something up I think, I think Red Bull won't be as strong for the next few seasons with the regulation changes, so I see him eventually going to Ferrari, maybe winning 1 more title when there)
Hamilton - 46 (Mercedes I think will dominate the next 2 seasons, Lewis will take full advantage of that and win at least 2 more WDC's, beyond that is harder to predict, but I reckon he will eventually finish somewhere between Alonso and Vettel in overall wins)
Alonso - 43 (more conservative prediction for Alonso but I think Ferrari's frustration will last at least till 2016 for him, after that I think he will get another title, though I think he may well call it quits after that)
Raikkonen - 26 (being back at Ferrari is going to bring him wins I think, but not a huge number as like I said I think Mercedes will dominate, I think he will probably keep going till the end of the Ferrari contract but after that I think he will likely call it a day)
Button - 25 (this one is the most ambitious, but I think Honda's return will really boost McLaren and Jenson, potentially 2015 or 2016 WDC I think, so 10 more wins given I expect McLaren to get a win or two at least next year as well, and I think Button will stick with them till he retires and I give him another 3 seasons at least, maybe 4 or 5 in F1)
 

Edited by HammyHamiltonFan, 19 October 2013 - 05:49.

Seb's under pressure hasn't been fully tested yet, except for 2012. And he did a fine job at that, but he's was being the hunter that season, hunting down Fernando Alonso, except in the four races of the season. But he had excellent form.

I would argue that Seb was under quite some pressure in 2010 and 2012:

In 2010, he had the fastest car, but he kept having lots of car problems (not just the DNFs in the lead, but many smaller problems). Because of those problems and own mistakes, Webber, Alonso and Hamilton were very close to him all year. For someone in his age, it was quite remarkable, in my opinion, that he kept cool in the final part of the season (even as a fan I got frustrated by the sheer amount of problems, much like Hamilton later in 2012). This was very noticeable in all races starting from Singapore that year. He only finished P2 in that race, but my impression was always that this was the turning point from which on he turned into a winning machine extracting the maximum out of what he has. His philosophy even back then was to always motivate the team and have a really strong focus on the next race (not the championship). I think this makes him mentally strong, especially towards the end of the WDC campaign. He seems to be able to maintain that focus even with the WDC on the line.

2012 had some similarities, but was a different scenario. By then, he was an established top driver and had only one competitor towards the end of the year. Alonso was very strong that year and extracted a lot out of his car, especially in tricky conditions at the start of the season. Vettel experimented more with car configurations and setups for qualy and didn't have the same trust in it as he had in the RB6 or RB7. In the race, however, it was quite different: he had his 2011 and 2013 level of consistency there. The first turning point that season was Valencia: He dominated that race, but DNFed and Alonso won, which was a 32 point swing towards his main competitor. From then on, he had a large gap to Alonso, which he later closed by winning four consecutive races with Singapore being the second turning point that season. The last few races were far from straightforward for Vettel. If you want to criticise him, you can point at the mistakes in there, but the way he took full risk and grabbed a bag of points from the back of the grid was immense. Overall in 2012, he had to come through the field 3 times (Spa, Abu Dhabi, Brazil) and needed almost each single point at the end. I think especially Brazil 2012 was one of the best drives I have seen (reminded me of Brazil 2006 by MS - both no wins but great performances).  When you are at the back of the grid after lap 1 in the last race with a damaged card in very tricky conditions and you cannot communicate with your team, but know you have to finish very high up to get the WDC, then you have been tested under real pressure.

VETTEL - 33 35
ALONSO - 32
HAMILTON - 22
RAIKKONEN - 20
BUTTON - 15

 

Fixed that. 

I would argue that Seb was under quite some pressure in 2010 and 2012:

 

In 2010, he had the fastest car, but he kept having lots of car problems (not just the DNFs in the lead, but many smaller problems). Because of those problems and own mistakes, Webber, Alonso and Hamilton were very close to him all year. For someone in his age, it was quite remarkable, in my opinion, that he kept cool in the final part of the season (even as a fan I got frustrated by the sheer amount of problems, much like Hamilton later in 2012). This was very noticeable in all races starting from Singapore that year. He only finished P2 in that race, but my impression was always that this was the turning point from which on he turned into a winning machine extracting the maximum out of what he has. His philosophy even back then was to always motivate the team and have a really strong focus on the next race (not the championship). I think this makes him mentally strong, especially towards the end of the WDC campaign. He seems to be able to maintain that focus even with the WDC on the line.

 

2012 had some similarities, but was a different scenario. By then, he was an established top driver and had only one competitor towards the end of the year. Alonso was very strong that year and extracted a lot out of his car, especially in tricky conditions at the start of the season. Vettel experimented more with car configurations and setups for qualy and didn't have the same trust in it as he had in the RB6 or RB7. In the race, however, it was quite different: he had his 2011 and 2013 level of consistency there. The first turning point that season was Valencia: He dominated that race, but DNFed and Alonso won, which was a 32 point swing towards his main competitor. From then on, he had a large gap to Alonso, which he later closed by winning four consecutive races with Singapore being the second turning point that season. The last few races were far from straightforward for Vettel. If you want to criticise him, you can point at the mistakes in there, but the way he took full risk and grabbed a bag of points from the back of the grid was immense. Overall in 2012, he had to come through the field 3 times (Spa, Abu Dhabi, Brazil) and needed almost each single point at the end. I think especially Brazil 2012 was one of the best drives I have seen (reminded me of Brazil 2006 by MS - both no wins but great performances).  When you are at the back of the grid after lap 1 in the last race with a damaged card in very tricky conditions and you cannot communicate with your team, but know you have to finish very high up to get the WDC, then you have been tested under real pressure.

In a certain way Seb was undr pressure, but to be honest his only challenger was a certain Alonso whose car often was A FULL SECOND off the pace, so Alonso could only mean a threat for him with his consistency.

I think everyone bar Vette-fans want year when there is a real fight for the title and not just for a certain period of the year.

I think everyone bar Vette-fans want year when there is a real fight for the title and not just for a certain period of the year.

What makes you think Vettel fans wouldn't want a "real fight for the title"?

In a certain way Seb was undr pressure, but to be honest his only challenger was a certain Alonso whose car often was A FULL SECOND off the pace, so Alonso could only mean a threat for him with his consistency.

 

I think everyone bar Vette-fans want year when there is a real fight for the title and not just for a certain period of the year.

a full second????? really??? I kinda doubt that.

What makes you think Vettel fans wouldn't want a "real fight for the title"?

That's the nature of the human being. I loved when Schumi dominated as a Ferrari-fan. Of course, close battles can give ya more satisfaction, but you always want your driver to winn every singe race.

a full second????? really??? I kinda doubt that.

Just let's check the qualies. It is a bit overestimaing perhaps, but it doesn't change the fact that RB had an icredible edge over the Ferrari in both years. For example 2010: Barca, Silv, Hungary. I still can remember Alonso as the best nonr-Red Bull guy had almost 1,5 second difference to Seb. That is just demoralizing. The RBs could have lapped the whole field in that race, Or  let's go back a few weeks: in Singapure Seb had 2,5 over the rest There is no point in denying that: Seb and Horner have spoek about a difference of 2 seconds.

I keep on saying Vettel hasn't won a championship in F1 yet, he won 4 titles in the Red Bull Championship. .

Just let's check the qualies. It is a bit overestimaing perhaps, but it doesn't change the fact that RB had an icredible edge over the Ferrari in both years. For example 2010: Barca, Silv, Hungary. I still can remember Alonso as the best nonr-Red Bull guy had almost 1,5 second difference to Seb. That is just demoralizing. The RBs could have lapped the whole field in that race, Or  let's go back a few weeks: in Singapure Seb had 2,5 over the rest There is no point in denying that: Seb and Horner have spoek about a difference of 2 seconds.

I keep on saying Vettel hasn't won a championship in F1 yet, he won 4 titles in the Red Bull Championship. .

I'm sorry to break into that imaginary world you're trying to create there, but

1. qualifying pace IS NOT race pace
2. car advantages differ per track
3. Vettel had 10 laps of ~2.5 seconds, not an entire race. better yet, 10 laps in which he was pushing while Alonso was saving tires.
4. if a second, or even this so-called 2.5 second difference, is a different championship, where are the Marussia's and Catherhams racing? Is Alonso no better than van der Garde because he drivers a car 3 seconds faster?

Edited by mnmracer, 19 October 2013 - 20:49.

a full second????? really??? I kinda doubt that.

As a Ferrari fan, the pace of the Red Bull in 2010 was scary to see. The middle sector pace they had at Hungary alone was incredible and Marks win on older tyres was incredibly depressing.

In Monza OTOH..... 

In my post, which unfortunately started the RB-Ferrari comparisons, I just wanted to point out that Vettel was under pressure in 2010 and 2012. This helps him to focus on single races and in general may help him to win more races in his career. (Whether or not that will be sufficient to match MS depends on very many factors and 91 race wins are still very very far away.)

In any case, I don't think a detailed discussion on car advantages in a particular year fits the thread very well (and it has been done quite exhaustively last year). The thread should be more about the big picture in my opinion.

That's the nature of the human being. I loved when Schumi dominated as a Ferrari-fan. Of course, close battles can give ya more satisfaction, but you always want your driver to winn every singe race.

Didn't you contradict yourself somewhere? First you said you want a close title fight (everyone bar Vettel fans) and in the next post you want Ferrari domination. 

Didn't you contradict yourself somewhere? First you said you want a close title fight (everyone bar Vettel fans) and in the next post you want Ferrari domination. 

I think his point was that people only enjoy domination when it is your favorite driver/team who is doing the said domination.

I think his point was that people only enjoy domination when it is your favorite driver/team who is doing the said domination.

The only point I can see in pretty much all of his posts is "Alonso is the best!!!"

The only point I can see in pretty much all of his posts is "Alonso is the best!!!"

Fair enough, I am not familiar with the guys posts enough to comment

That looks very much like Jacky Chan in his younger days.... 

I think his point was that people only enjoy domination when it is your favorite driver/team who is doing the said domination.

Exactly.

 

I'm sorry to break into that imaginary world you're trying to create there, but

1. qualifying pace IS NOT race pace
2. car advantages differ per track
3. Vettel had 10 laps of ~2.5 seconds, not an entire race. better yet, 10 laps in which he was pushing while Alonso was saving tires.
4. if a second, or even this so-called 2.5 second difference, is a different championship, where are the Marussia's and Catherhams racing? Is Alonso no better than van der Garde because he drivers a car 3 seconds faster?

 

2. - that is exactly why I said we can take an avarage difference which can varies from tack to track

3 - 2 in Singapure - If I am not mistaken he has built a gap of somewhat 22 second over around 12 laps over the rest. That is just ridiculous. He pushed for a few laps then he laid down in the cockpit and he was even so giving the rest more then a second. Different league. 

4. Exaggeration, man. Just wanted to highlight that there was to wasy for the others to take on the fight against the RB.

1. Yeah, qualy and race pace are different matter, but don't forget your qualy speed can boost your chances massively. If you start further behind you have to take risk al the time, at the start, during the first lap, it not just gives you a handicap for the race in terms of position, but it also forces you to take every inch of risk. Furthermore, if you have at least 8 tenth disadvantage there is just no way to make it up for the race, you can reduce it, but not completely. They usually dominated qualies and had a nice gap over the rest in the race.

+domination:Some seem to forget domination doesn't mean you have to dominate every single race. Even Ferrari was slow or slowish in 2004 or 2002 in a few races despite their OVERALL dominant form. That is the case with RB. They had lot of races in 2010, 2011 and 2012 where they dominated and this year they had a dominant form in Bahrain, Malaysia, Canada, Spa, Monza, Singapure, Korea (yeah, you would now think that wasn't a dominant for, but every single time ROmain closed in the gap, Seb reacted with a fastest time )) That was just kindda theatre, he was just nursing his tyres and Rocky made up stories about overheating brake just to slow Seb down), Japan. Oh, my world, that is more than enough!

Sebastian Vettel-fans just can't cope with others' opinion: nobody wants to dismiss what he has achieved so far, but there is just no point in denying it was just a holiday for him to win those titles cos he had lot of races in those 4 seasons where his car was just dominant, unbeatable und untouchable.

Some very interesting thoughts here. 

But we have to get back on topic - which is:  will Sebastian meet or beat the 91 wins Michael has accomplished?

I think it is a good point that a driver has to be dominant over continuous seasons in order to even consider establishing that number of wins.  Too, I would imagine setting that goal for yourself would be paramount - which Sebastian has already denied.  So I feel it is pretty unlikely. 

Sebastian Vettel-fans just can't cope with others' opinion: nobody wants to dismiss what he has achieved so far, but there is just no point in denying it was just a holiday for him to win those titles cos he had lot of races in those 4 seasons where his car was just dominant, unbeatable und untouchable.

You are dismissing what he achieved so far by saying that it was just a holiday to win his titles.

I think it is a good point that a driver has to be dominant over continuous seasons in order to even consider establishing that number of wins.  Too, I would imagine setting that goal for yourself would be paramount - which Sebastian has already denied. 

I feel it is more the other way round: You are more likely to achieve 91 wins if you think race-by-race (instead of explicitly setting that as a goal).

You are dismissing what he achieved so far by saying that it was just a holiday to win his titles.

No and no. As a driver he is clearly one of the best. He showed that many times, not just in F1. I was one of his fan long before he came into F1 and so long before people got to know him. For example his moves and tyre controlling in Japan last time out was brilliant. But as a whole season he has had a very easy time.

Just let's check the qualies. It is a bit overestimaing perhaps, but it doesn't change the fact that RB had an icredible edge over the Ferrari in both years. For example 2010: Barca, Silv, Hungary. I still can remember Alonso as the best nonr-Red Bull guy had almost 1,5 second difference to Seb. That is just demoralizing. The RBs could have lapped the whole field in that race, Or  let's go back a few weeks: in Singapure Seb had 2,5 over the rest There is no point in denying that: Seb and Horner have spoek about a difference of 2 seconds.

I keep on saying Vettel hasn't won a championship in F1 yet, he won 4 titles in the Red Bull Championship. .

Sorry for the offtopic, but I think you should re-chech your examples:

• Spain 2010, qualifying difference between pole and best non-RB 0.834 seconds << 1.5 seconds; fastest lap for McLaren.
• GB 2010, – – 0.811seconds << 1.5 secods; fastest laps for both Ferraris, with best non-Ferrari (Vettel) 1.093 seconds down.
• Hungary 2010, – – 1.214 seconds < 1.5 seconds. Almost there, but not quite. This time the fastest lap went to RB with 0.449 seconds to spare.

The difference was large, but no where near as large as you made it sound. (And, in Singapore 2013, you compare Vettel's pace to a 'broken-frontwing'-Rosberg-train – where everyone else was stuck.)

Back to topic, to reach 91 victories does sound remote; however, in late 90's no-one even dared to suggest that MSC would go there (or for obtaining those 5 concecutive WDCs, for that matter). This alone makes me think that there is a possibility for the record to be broken. It only requires a decade of top-level F1 driving for Sebastian, with 5–6 wins per year – and in his current form he seems to be able to do that (some would say "unfortunately" here). Remember, there are more races per year than ever before...

Sorry for the offtopic, but I think you should re-chech your examples:

• Spain 2010, qualifying difference between pole and best non-RB 0.834 seconds << 1.5 seconds; fastest lap for McLaren.
• GB 2010, – – 0.811seconds << 1.5 secods; fastest laps for both Ferraris, with best non-Ferrari (Vettel) 1.093 seconds down.
• Hungary 2010, – – 1.214 seconds < 1.5 seconds. Almost there, but not quite. This time the fastest lap went to RB with 0.449 seconds to spare.

The difference was large, but no where near as large as you made it sound. (And, in Singapore 2013, you compare Vettel's pace to a 'broken-frontwing'-Rosberg-train – where everyone else was stuck.)

 

Back to topic, to reach 91 victories does sound remote; however, in late 90's no-one even dared to suggest that MSC would go there (or for obtaining those 5 concecutive WDCs, for that matter). This alone makes me think that there is a possibility for the record to be broken. It only requires a decade of top-level F1 driving for Sebastian, with 5–6 wins per year – and in his current form he seems to be able to do that (some would say "unfortunately" here). Remember, there are more races per year than ever before...

Race fastest laps can't be considered as a real refeence points, cos they all depend on your strategy. I remember Esteban also set a fastest race lap this year cos he pitted very late.

Ok, you can forget my 1,5, but I think 0,8-1,2 are more then enough. That is demoralizing. It doesn't really change the fact whether RB had 8 tenth or 5 seconds advantage per lap cos already a 0,4-0,5 difference make things absolutely impossible for the others.

No and no. As a driver he is clearly one of the best. He showed that many times, not just in F1. I was one of his fan long before he came into F1 and so long before people got to know him. For example his moves and tyre controlling in Japan last time out was brilliant. But as a whole season he has had a very easy time.

You were speaking of all titles - not just this year. 2010 and 2012 were clearly no "holidays", whereas 2011 and 2013 are easier pressure wise (nevertheless, he was also leading this year without the best car - maybe he would have won the WDC without RB returning to dominance).

It's interesting that you were a fan of him - it looks like the complete opposite now.

You were speaking of all titles - not just this year. 2010 and 2012 were clearly no "holidays", whereas 2011 and 2013 are easier pressure wise (nevertheless, he was also leading this year without the best car - maybe he would have won the WDC without RB returning to dominance).

 

It's interesting that you were a fan of him - it looks like the complete opposite now.

2010: he made the year hard for himself, as mentioned they dominated load of races, load, load, load of races...

2012: they dominated Bahrain, Valencia, Korea, Szuzuka, India and were always on the pace bar Monza.

No, I still like him and I could speak to him in summer and praised him, I am just expressing my frustration against this situation. I still think Ham and Alonso are a bit better driver, it is just painful to see that neither of them won any titles in the past years. In 2010 and 2012 Alonso did something extraordinary with that mediocre car, while Ham was very strong in 2012, only his car's reliability  and team stopped him win the title.I am just a sensitive guy who always wants justice in life.

2010: he made the year hard for himself, as mentioned they dominated load of races, load, load, load of races...

2012: they dominated Bahrain, Valencia, Korea, Szuzuka, India and were always on the pace bar Monza.

 

No, I still like him and I could speak to him in summer and praised him, I am just expressing my frustration against this situation. I still think Ham and Alonso are a bit better driver, it is just painful to see that neither of them won any titles in the past years. In 2010 and 2012 Alonso did something extraordinary with that mediocre car, while Ham was very strong in 2012, only his car's reliability  and team stopped him win the title.I am just a sensitive guy who always wants justice in life.

Now you said it. You are frustated because your favorite driver (and we all know who he is ) is not getting the results many people think he would because this young german and his team are doing an almost perfect job. 

Nice try putting Hamilton in the mix... 

Now you can go on and on with your posts trying to minimize their achievements but with all due respect, I'm afraid it's a lost cause.   

Now you said it. You are frustated because your favorite driver (and we all know who he is ) is not getting the results many people think he would because this young german and his team are doing an almost perfect job. 

 

Nice try putting Hamilton in the mix... 

 

Now you can go on and on with your posts trying to minimize their achievements but with all due respect, I'm afraid it's a lost cause.   

Just to mention, I live in Germany So theoretically I had to support Seb now.

Putting Ham into the mix? Yeah, cos he is the closest to Fernando. Am I frustrated? I think it is not just me. I can't believe anyone bar RB-fans can enjoy the RB domination for the fourth consecutive year.

Just to mention, I live in Germany So theoretically I had to support Seb now.

Putting Ham into the mix? Yeah, cos he is the closest to Fernando. Am I frustrated? I think it is not just me. I can't believe anyone bar RB-fans can enjoy the RB domination for the fourth consecutive year.

Just to mention, I live in Spain and I am Spanish  So theoretically I had to support Alonso then and now... 

And I leave it here OK? 

I can't believe anyone bar RB-fans can enjoy the RB domination for the fourth consecutive year.

To be fair 2010 and 2012 were not dominant, they were close and exciting seasons.

I would bang on bout how dull 2011 and 2013 are in comparison, but I would be hypocrite as if it was Lewis doing the winning, I would probably be loving it. I think 95% of fans like closely contested seasons, even Seb/RB fans probably enjoyed 2012 as much as say 2013.

Sebastian Vettel-fans just can't cope with others' opinion: nobody wants to dismiss what he has achieved so far, but there is just no point in denying it was just a holiday for him to win those titles cos he had lot of races in those 4 seasons where his car was just dominant, unbeatable and untouchable.

That's rich coming from someone who says "there's no point in denying" and then goes 100% against an increasing majority of the paddock.

Edited by mnmracer, 20 October 2013 - 14:43.

As a Seb fan, I thoroughly enjoyed 2012 and 2013 up until Spa. Since then, that real excitement has somehow vanished with the utter domination of Seb and RBR. I was happy that he had to work for it a bit at the last GP, but I would like to see him make more overtaking on track for position, as he often pulls of very neat moves.

My problem is not that people are not enjoying the Seb/RB dominance, but taking it out through Seb by booing him or slagging his driving skills of is wholly unjustified. This year he has done the best job on driving merit in my opinion, so its like booing a guy for being good at his job.

I have covered in the other thread why I do not think booing the human being is justified either.

Edited by sennafan24, 20 October 2013 - 14:54.

To be fair 2010 and 2012 were not dominant, they were close and exciting seasons.

 

I would bang on bout how dull 2011 and 2013 are in comparison, but I would be hypocrite as if it was Lewis doing the winning, I would probably be loving it. I think 95% of fans like closely contested seasons, even Seb/RB fans probably enjoyed 2012 as much as say 2013.

From a Vettel fan perspective, I can understand why others are frustrated, although I don't think the forums are a good means to vent that frustration.

I also enjoy a hard fought win like in Germany this year more than an easy win. However, with Vettel there is also this feeling of amazing consistency and F1 history in the making even in those apparently easy races. And, of course, the field overall is quite close, so there are a lot of other battles during a race even if they are not for P1.

 And, of course, the field overall is quite close, so there are a lot of other battles during a race even if they are not for P1.

True

But a fight for the lead will always entertain more due to the higher stakes attached. Hence why I personally enjoyed Japan more than Korea.

Some very interesting thoughts here. 
 
But we have to get back on topic - which is:  will Sebastian meet or beat the 91 wins Michael has accomplished?

2010: he made the year hard for himself, as mentioned they dominated load of races, load, load, load of races...

2012: they dominated Bahrain, Valencia, Korea, Szuzuka, India and were always on the pace bar Monza.

 

No, I still like him and I could speak to him in summer and praised him, I am just expressing my frustration against this situation. I still think Ham and Alonso are a bit better driver, it is just painful to see that neither of them won any titles in the past years. In 2010 and 2012 Alonso did something extraordinary with that mediocre car, while Ham was very strong in 2012, only his car's reliability  and team stopped him win the title.I am just a sensitive guy who always wants justice in life.

In 2010, I agree that they had the fastest car, but Vettel also lost a lot of points due to unreliability (similar to Hamilton in 2012). That's why it was not easy for him (it was easier for Webber).

2012: Just picking the first race, you mention: Do you really think Bahran was RB domination? Kimi almost got him and I think RB was not the fastest car, but it was just track position which helped him at the end. A possibly still a bit rusty Kimi and a Grosjean, who was certainly not at his peak, were pressuring him, whereas Webber was half a minute behind him. I would say Lotus was the fastest car at that track. Even if you think RB was faster, it really didn't look like domination.

Regarding your frustration: Understandable, but I think you are biased in your analysis because of it. Many of us have some bias, but sometimes it helps to take a step back and look at an argument again.