Jake Humphrey - Drivers need to start doing a decent job

If we use Humphrey's logic:

Senna should have done a much better job in 1992 than he actually did. He was beaten by Patrese.

Schumacher should have done a much better job in 1996, 97, 98, 99, 2005 etc

Raikkonen had to be better in 2003, 2004, 2005 etc

Alonso in 2008, 2009, 2011, 2012.. especially in 2008 when he was beaten by 4 drivers

Edited by BorkoF2012, 07 October 2013 - 23:51.

Jake suggest all other 21 drivers do a bad job not challenging Vettel enough. Tell this the drivers of the smaller teams, that they do a really miserable job.

He completely dismisses the fact the car plays a major role in F1, just like Vettel has the same car as Bianchi or Hülkenberg, only they are too bad to  win the wDC

He uses Lewis name to get attention, and than paddles back in his next tweet:

 

“@hampsonalex: Read the whole interview and he doesnt blame Vettel.” >>I know he doesn't. That line was aimed at the booers and criticisers

 

I

Okay, but my point in relation to Lewis remains the same.  WHY is Lewis commiserating with those who are bored because they can predict the winner?   Why does he say he "feels for them" and that his family used to do the same thing?  Why not recognize their boredom and share the obvious excitement that can be found from watching a race like yesterday's race?  Some have said they didn't even watch it - but look what they missed!  Hamilton provided a lot of that excitement, so you would think he'd be among the first to point out that their boredom is misplaced.

Jake did accuse Lewis of saying that "dominance dulls the show" - so I would agree that he has changed his tune.  But he was interpreting Lewis, so I believe what I have written is still on topic.

Edited by bourbon, 08 October 2013 - 00:02.

F1 drivers should be based on promotion and relegation to new teams rather than popularity and money.
 
As the standings are and if the drivers were not to retire:
 
Red Bull: Vettel stays/ Webber demoted                    Vettel/Alonso
Ferrari: Alonso promoted / Massa demoted               Lewis/Webber
Mercedes: Lewis promoted / Rosberg demoted         Massa/ Kimi
Lotus: Kimi promoted / Grosjean demoted                 Rosberg/Button
McLaren: Button promoted / Perez demoted              Grosjean/Di Resta
Force India: Di Resta promoted / Sutil demoted         Perez/Hulk
Sauber: Hulk promoted / Esteban demoted                Sutil/Ricciardo
Toro Rosso: Ricciardo promoted/ Vergne demoted   Esteban/Maldonado
 
---------------------------------------------
 
Bottom 3 teams can hire and fire whoever they want bar the top driver of the six who would be promoted, Maldonado being top in Williams.

Ok, but in that case, judging from Alonso's real rating of his car, he should drive for Caterham .

Edited by RealRacing, 08 October 2013 - 00:12.

F1 is better without Humphrey, I especially don't miss his annoying chummy behaviour with Vettel and condescending attitude towards Eddie Jordan.

Let the twit post what he wants on Twitter.

He (has almost) won 4xWDCs on the trot.  And this year leaving no doubt as to who is the best driver on the grid.

 

Yes, he is that special.

That is the whole point.  While Sebi is in the Red Bull no-one can be sure, it's blind faith that SV is the best; and not everyone shares it.

And that's part of the problem, that people don't really know what it is they're looking at.  Certainly not Jake, who seems to think all it needs to topple Sebi is for the other drivers to start trying,

Okay, but my point in relation to Lewis remains the same.  WHY is Lewis commiserating with those who are bored because they can predict the winner?   Why does he say he "feels for them" and that his family used to do the same thing?  Why not recognize their boredom and share the obvious excitement that can be found from watching a race like yesterday's race?  Some have said they didn't even watch it - but look what they missed!  Hamilton provided a lot of that excitement, so you would think he'd be among the first to point out that their boredom is misplaced.

 

Jake did accuse Lewis of saying that "dominance dulls the show" - so I would agree that he has changed his tune.  But he was interpreting Lewis, so I believe what I have written is still on topic.

But Hamilton is right at least at the non fanatic f1 viewers. Many do not watch it since it looks like Vettel wins the WDC again, because they are not intersted in who comes 2nd or 3rd. Of course the race can be exciting with the battles behind, but much of the exitement is gone, if you know before the race who is going to win.

Like it or not not everybody is a fan of Vettel, and it's not really exiting or satisfying to see him again and again winning. (Even at my family I'm watching it alone ATM, they ask me why do you still watch it, ist boring)

Jake tweeted nonsense, and paddled back when he realised it

That is the whole point.  While Sebi is in the Red Bull no-one can be sure, it's blind faith that SV is the best; and not everyone shares it.

 

And that's part of the problem, that people don't really know what it is they're looking at.  Certainly not Jake, who seems to think all it needs to topple Sebi is for the other drivers to start trying,

By these standards, its blind faith calling any driver great.  How many teams did Clark drive for?  How many teams did Senna win a WDC with?  How many teams has Alonso won a WDC with?

Edited by Winter98, 08 October 2013 - 01:48.

At least with those Coulthard and Fisi had decent reputations, which were pretty much ruined by their team-mates' brilliance. And a couple of constructors' titles were won because one team's number 2 was better than the others'.

Webber came closer to the title than either of those drivers. 

F1 is better without Humphrey, I especially don't miss his annoying chummy behaviour with Vettel and condescending attitude towards Eddie Jordan.

Let the twit post what he wants on Twitter.

He was the best F1 presenter for many years, neither Perry or Lazenby have come close. FACT.

But Hamilton is right at least at the non fanatic f1 viewers. Many do not watch it since it looks like Vettel wins the WDC again, because they are not intersted in who comes 2nd or 3rd. Of course the race can be exciting with the battles behind, but much of the exitement is gone, if you know before the race who is going to win.

Like it or not not everybody is a fan of Vettel, and it's not really exiting or satisfying to see him again and again winning. (Even at my family I'm watching it alone ATM, they ask me why do you still watch it, ist boring)

 

Jake tweeted nonsense, and paddled back when he realised it

It is not a matter of whether Hamilton is right or wrong.  The point is, why don't Hamilton's fans find a race in which Hamilton is battling for position (any position) exciting?  And I am not a Hamilton fan; I found it exciting watching him and Alonso, him and Rosberg, him trying against the Hulk.  Why would Hamilton fans find it boring?  Not just Hamilton, but I use him as an example.  Alonso fans, Raikkonen fans, Merc fans, Ferrari fans, RBR fans, Lotus fans, Grosjean fans - they should have all been on the edge of their seats at times.  I don't understand.  Okay, maybe a Marussia fan is bored, but let's face it, they came in knowing what they were getting so...

By these standards, its blind faith calling any driver great.  How many teams did Clark drive for?  How many teams did Senna win a WDC with?  How many teams has Alonso won a WDC with?

Touche'...

By these standards, its blind faith calling any driver great.  How many teams did Clark drive for?  How many teams did Senna win a WDC with?  How many teams has Alonso won a WDC with?

David Coulthard

Jacques Villeneuve

Mika Hakkinen 

Mark Webber

Sebastian Vettel

Want to know what these drivers have in common? They only ever won races in Newey cars. You could add Damon Hill, who scored 21 out of 22 wins with Newey, so its quite a large group, and until Vettel leaves that group you cannot blame people for questioning him.

It is not a matter of whether Hamilton is right or wrong.  The point is, why don't Hamilton's fans find a race in which Hamilton is battling for position (any position) exciting?  And I am not a Hamilton fan; I found it exciting watching him and Alonso, him and Rosberg, him trying against the Hulk.  Why would Hamilton fans find it boring?  Not just Hamilton, but I use him as an example.  Alonso fans, Raikkonen fans, Merc fans, Ferrari fans, RBR fans, Lotus fans, Grosjean fans - they should have all been on the edge of their seats at times.  I don't understand.  Okay, maybe a Marussia fan is bored, but let's face it, they came in knowing what they were getting so...

David Coulthard

Jacques Villeneuve

Mika Hakkinen 

Mark Webber

Sebastian Vettel

 

 

Want to know what these drivers have in common? They only ever won races in Newey cars. You could add Damon Hill, who scored 21 out of 22 wins with Newey, so its quite a large group, and until Vettel leaves that group you cannot blame people for questioning him.

I think you are extremely disrespectful here. The teams have 100s of people working on the cars and you reduce it all to one man. The same man, who couldn't design a championship winning car for 10 years (2000-2009). RB is more than Newey, so were Williams and McLaren before. Four of the Five fastest pitstops in Singapore were done by RB and they've been doing the fastest pitstops throughout the season. RB did their homework in all areas, not only the windtunnel.

I DO blame people for questioning him, because all the Newey talk is just a lame rationalization of what is in reality just petty jealousy because your man didn't win. If it was your favourite driver in the Red Bull, you wouldn't even think about addressing all the success to Newey.

David Coulthard

Jacques Villeneuve

Mika Hakkinen 

Mark Webber

Sebastian Vettel

 

 

Want to know what these drivers have in common? They only ever won races in Newey cars. You could add Damon Hill, who scored 21 out of 22 wins with Newey, so its quite a large group, and until Vettel leaves that group you cannot blame people for questioning him.

How many championships did Kimi win when he was in Newey cars?

Lewis has won his only championship in what was pretty much a Newey car as well.

Well Hamilton made a series of tweets to clarify:

Lewis Hamilton ‏@LewisHamilton:
Good morning all. Read some of the stories/reports of my comments on Seb. Feel the need to clarify my thoughts. Seb is great champion!!

Not only that, he is a great human being who is funny and humble. Deserves all the success he is having!

I admire his dedication & ability to consistently perform without mistakes. This is the mark of a true champion.

Regardless of what you & I may think about his car, at the end of the day he's doing the perfect job.

I'm just grateful I get to drive in an era with so many great drivers like him. God Bless & have an amazing day!

 

--------------------------

That's cool as it should hopefully cancel out some of the side issues being debated.  But I don't think that brings us any further on the 'boring races' issue.  They really are not, imo.

Edited by bourbon, 08 October 2013 - 04:20.

Discussions like this is why I wish in many ways that F1 was a Spec series.

 

I know profit and business will never allow that, and those with strong team preferences would prefer not to see it, but I would bloody love seeing all the drivers fight whilst using the same machinery. 

 

Mind you I think forums would die off if we did not have Seb to debate about at the moment!

If it turns into a spec series, I am no longer watching it. I always found the battle betwqeen the engineers at least as interesting as the battle between the drivers.

It would be a more interesting battle between engineers if there were spending caps.  After all, any engineer can suggest 10 development paths and be successful in one; but only a genius engineer could suggest 1 development path and be successful in it.

It would be a more interesting battle between engineers if there were spending caps.  After all, any engineer can suggest 10 development paths and be successful in one; but only a genius engineer could suggest 1 development path and be successful in it.

Spending caps won't help. First of all they can hardly be gouverned. What you'll end up with is Merc and Ferrari, who in addition to the team also have an engine development division, will end up cross-sbsidizing between these two, which allows them to circumvent the restrictions.

Even the current 'unrestricted' budgets do not directly translate into result. Ferrari has the biggest budget, closely followed by RB and McLaren, who have the same budget about 20 million less than Ferrari. Yet one of the three runs away with the championship, while the other two perform distinctively mediocre and Lotus with a much lower budget spanks them.

Well it's true, do you expect RBR to purposely lose races for the sake of entertainment?

Seems like some people do.

Discussions like this is why I wish in many ways that F1 was a Spec series.

 

It pretty much IS though.  That's what makes Redbull (or anyone's) domination so ironic.

If it turns into a spec series, I am no longer watching it. I always found the battle betwqeen the engineers at least as interesting as the battle between the drivers.

I accounted for that in my post, that some like to see engineer battles just as much as driver battles. All preference, and Ferrari amazing support shows that you are not alone.

I will be honest, I am a more driver-centered fan, I route for the likes of Ferrari and Williams, but I am more concerned on what Lewis is doing on a Race Weekend than anything else.

Jake's comment show that after all his years in F1 he still does not understand that F1 is first and foremost an engineering competition. That's what makes the biggest difference.

that clears that up, already found it weird that Lewis would strike out at Seb, when they seem to be getting along so well recently

Spending caps won't help. First of all they can hardly be gouverned. What you'll end up with is Merc and Ferrari, who in addition to the team also have an engine development division, will end up cross-sbsidizing between these two, which allows them to circumvent the restrictions.

 

Even the current 'unrestricted' budgets do not directly translate into result. Ferrari has the biggest budget, closely followed by RB and McLaren, who have the same budget about 20 million less than Ferrari. Yet one of the three runs away with the championship, while the other two perform distinctively mediocre and Lotus with a much lower budget spanks them.

They make spending caps work in American sports.  As for the unrestricted budgets, yes, obviously Ferrari underperform as they tend to do, but Dieter Rencken's analysis suggested RB was 33% ahead of McLaren in spends.  And nearly 300% ahead of Williams.  The difference between McLaren and Lotus is less than half the difference between RB and McLaren.

There is therefore a very decent correlation between spending and championship position...

Spending order:

Ferrari, RB, McLaren & Mercedes, Lotus, FI, Sauber & Williams, Toro Rosso, Caterham, Marussia

Championship order:

RB (+1), Ferrari (-1), Mercedes (=), Lotus (+1), McLaren (-1.5), FI (=), Sauber (=), Toro Rosso (+1), Williams (-1.5), Marussia (+1), Caterham (-1)

I would suggest that drivers can make a difference of 1 place tops.  Lotus have a better line-up than McLaren, RB have a better number 2 than Ferrari, Hulk is better than Maldonado, and at that end a couple of places can make a disproportionate difference - yet even there the differences are minor. 

To put it another way, it is inconceivable that FI could catch McLaren, let alone Red Bull, under the current financial regime.

that clears that up, already found it weird that Lewis would strike out at Seb, when they seem to be getting along so well recently

People say that Lewis is turning into Cientology and climbing mountains.

Drivers say its impossible to talk to him latelly. His speach is too 'disconected'.

 

that clears that up, already found it weird that Lewis would strike out at Seb, when they seem to be getting along so well recently

It would have helped if people had actually read what he said rather than reacting to headlines.

What they should do is after every race, each seat is auctioned and lots drawn. That would be fun for a while. Just like Finnish amateur racing.

People say that Lewis is turning into Cientology and climbing mountains.

Drivers say its impossible to talk to him latelly. His speach is too 'disconected'.

Source please.

 

that clears that up, already found it weird that Lewis would strike out at Seb, when they seem to be getting along so well recently

Clears what up? That's what any reasonable person would have surmised from the article anyway - sorry the original comments the article embellished. 

David Coulthard

Jacques Villeneuve

Mika Hakkinen 

Mark Webber

Sebastian Vettel

 

 

Want to know what these drivers have in common? They only ever won races in Newey cars. You could add Damon Hill, who scored 21 out of 22 wins with Newey, so its quite a large group, and until Vettel leaves that group you cannot blame people for questioning him.

If Newey was the golden ticket to winning, why did Alonso turn down a drive? Why did Alonso only become interested in this golden ticket when Vettel gave Newey the first WDC in 10 years?

 

that clears that up, already found it weird that Lewis would strike out at Seb, when they seem to be getting along so well recently

Lewis never said aniting against vettel personally, you might read his interviews not only what such Lufthupen like Humphreys say

People say that Lewis is turning into Cientology and climbing mountains.

Drivers say its impossible to talk to him latelly. His speach is too 'disconected'.

I don't think it's Scientology to praise Jesus for the things you have. You may look into religions closer.Hamilton is a very devoted christian

BTW Scientology is no religion

And whats wrong with climbing mountains as fittness training?

Edited by Raven8, 08 October 2013 - 08:16.

 

that clears that up, already found it weird that Lewis would strike out at Seb, when they seem to be getting along so well recently

Well there you go, even Lewis agrees with the Vettel fans and some of the non Vettel fans like myself about his quality as a driver and champion. No matter how good his car is Sebastian has performed consistently well and his in line for his fourth championship at such a young age. He may be in a great car but that car doesn't drive itself. As his race craft has improved over the years so has my respect for him. 

"Seb is a great champion" - Lewis Hamilton.

Glad we can finally put this one to bed. 

People say 'no matter how the car is he's performed consistently well'. Well I urge you to do a little experiment. Go to you local kart track with a bunch of friends and 'ask' the workers there to give you the best kart. If you're weight 10kg less than your friends even better. You'll be surprised how easy it is to waltz off into the distance like a champion while your friends get mired in the sh*t behind you. It says nothing of your driving ability, though I bet you'll still enjoy your friends saying 'how fast you were'.

It is just a common fact that if you have the best and most consistent car you will not be under the same intensity of pressure as your rivals. Whether it's your local indoor circuit or F1 its the same.

Now this is not a criticism of Vettel or RBR, this is just the way the sport should be reported. The media/fans have managed to somehow erase the concept of appreciating the technology of design of the cars without somehow demeaning the driver. The sport isn't reported correctly. The drivers really aren't the ultimate catalyst of performance, the designers and engineers are. if you don't think Vettel, Hamilton, Button or half the grid (not including Webber) could do what Seb is doing in that car you are deluding yourself.

Edited by rhukkas, 08 October 2013 - 08:55.

Humphrey is obviously a bit of a simpleton.

People say 'no matter how the car is he's performed consistently well'. Well I urge you to do a little experiment. Go to you local kart track with a bunch of friends and 'ask' the workers there to give you the best kart. If you're weight 10kg less than your friends even better. You'll be surprised how easy it is to waltz off into the distance like a champion while your friends get mired in the sh*t behind you. It says nothing of your driving ability, though I bet you'll still enjoy your friends saying 'how fast you were'.

 

It is just a common fact that if you have the best and most consistent car you will not be under the same intensity of pressure as your rivals. Whether it's your local indoor circuit or F1 its the same.

 

Now this is not a criticism of Vettel or RBR, this is just the way the sport should be reported. The media/fans have managed to somehow erase the concept of appreciating the technology of design of the cars without somehow demeaning the driver. The sport isn't reported correctly. The drivers really aren't the ultimate catalyst of performance, the designers and engineers are. if you don't think Vettel, Hamilton, Button or half the grid (not including Webber) could do what Seb is doing in that car you are deluding yourself.

Erm, why are we excluding Webber exactly?

And is Ricciardo included inn your "half the grid" assessment?

David Coulthard

Jacques Villeneuve

Mika Hakkinen 

Mark Webber

Sebastian Vettel

 

 

Want to know what these drivers have in common? They only ever won races in Newey cars. You could add Damon Hill, who scored 21 out of 22 wins with Newey, so its quite a large group, and until Vettel leaves that group you cannot blame people for questioning him.

Coulthard won 2 races in the 1997 McLaren which was not a Newey car.

Humphery obviously misses Vettel so much - I reckon he was having a crank when he decided to type that 

As did Webber. I mean you people act like Vettel raced Paul Belmondo and Jean-Denis Deletraz to his titles.

After Webber's last two seasons, it wouldn't have been much worse.

Humphrey is obviously a bit of a simpleton.

That's understatement IMO

It's pretty much the most idiotic statement a commentator, ex or current, could have made.  The truth is, even if ALO/HAM/RAK had the gig at RBR, it would still be boring watching whoever rack up a 10 second cushion, then spent 45 laps protecting their tyres.  If they had to push throughout the race, it would be better, better still, if they had someone who was acknowledged as quick (sorry Mark, but I don't think you're top drawer, as nice as you are), to slug it out properly with VET.  I have no doubts he's quick, nor do I ALO or HAM, but I'd love to see the RBR's have a proper fight for the front, which would make it exciting.  When the MP4/4 was monstering the opposition, at least we had two drivers take it to each other.  It's not seeing this happen, which is making it boring; the race is only exciting now, to see the lower positions on the steps, and even then, sometimes the racing is better for the lower points positions.  It's not great for the fans just now.  That's all I can see HAM is saying, and, if I am frank, it's caught the zeitgeist of F1 at the moment.

I am really hoping for some closer racing next year.

Well there you go, even Lewis agrees with the Vettel fans and some of the non Vettel fans like myself about his quality as a driver and champion. No matter how good his car is Sebastian has performed consistently well and his in line for his fourth championship at such a young age. He may be in a great car but that car doesn't drive itself. As his race craft has improved over the years so has my respect for him. 

Its paying lip service to being polite.  VET is simply using all that is underneath him to the best of his ability.  For that he has to be saluted, for he can only do what he is doing.  However, he cannot expect to be considered from the very top drawer until he has done this with a driver from the top drawer, or in a car that is clearly not the best.  Overall, since the middle of the 2009 season, he's, pretty much, been in the best car, overall.  You can only do what he is doing, but there will always be a suspicion he's not as good as the best, if he stays where he is, with team mates not cut from the same cloth.

Simon Lazenby came out with a cracker the other day about How Vettel would be 4th in the contructor championship if he alone were a constructor. Hardly a big deal given Alonso, Lewis, Kimi and a few others could all be sixth.

Simon Lazenby came out with a cracker the other day about How Vettel would be 4th in the contructor championship if he alone were a constructor. Hardly a big deal given Alonso, Lewis, Kimi and a few others could all be sixth.

 Sky/ BBC (ex) commentators seem to not the brightest lights in the universe

It is not a matter of whether Hamilton is right or wrong.  The point is, why don't Hamilton's fans find a race in which Hamilton is battling for position (any position) exciting?  And I am not a Hamilton fan; I found it exciting watching him and Alonso, him and Rosberg, him trying against the Hulk.  Why would Hamilton fans find it boring?  Not just Hamilton, but I use him as an example.  Alonso fans, Raikkonen fans, Merc fans, Ferrari fans, RBR fans, Lotus fans, Grosjean fans - they should have all been on the edge of their seats at times.  I don't understand.  Okay, maybe a Marussia fan is bored, but let's face it, they came in knowing what they were getting so...

Well I'm a Hamilton fan and I didn't find the race remotely exciting...in fact I found it frustrating. What is so "exciting" about a world-class driver like Lewis losing 4 seconds a lap because of stupid tyres? I want to see racing, not tyre conservation. I want to see Lewis and Alonso fighting for the lead, not for 5th place. This season reminds me of 2009...Lewis and Alonso fighting for 14th place while Button waltzed off into the distance...well forgive me for not finding that "exciting". It is beyond frustrating to me that only Newey seems to be able to design a decent F1 car. Why for goodness sake can't the likes of Mercedes, Ferrari and McLaren get their act together and produce a car that can challenge the Red Bull? There are so many great drivers in F1 today, yet their careers are being ruined by the relentless Red Bull juggernaut. 

As for Humphrey, well when was he ever interested in F1? I never liked him and I thought he was extremely biased towards Jenson Button...he always seemed to enjoy having a go at Lewis, especially after the 2010 Australian GP. I was so angry after that race that I even posted a couple of messages on the blog he had at the time. He always seemed to prefer football anyway. 

Well Hamilton made a series of tweets to clarify:

 

 

 

--------------------------

 

That's cool as it should hopefully cancel out some of the side issues being debated.  But I don't think that brings us any further on the 'boring races' issue.  They really are not, imo.

A Race is still boring if you already know who the winner will be - don't even know why Lewis had to clarify because it was obvious he likes and gets on well with Seb he was just saying races have become boring for the fans and this is backed up from the majority of feedback.

Well I'm a Hamilton fan and I didn't find the race remotely exciting...in fact I found it frustrating. What is so "exciting" about a world-class driver like Lewis losing 4 seconds a lap because of stupid tyres? I want to see racing, not tyre conservation. I want to see Lewis and Alonso fighting for the lead, not for 5th place. This season reminds me of 2009...Lewis and Alonso fighting for 14th place while Button waltzed off into the distance...well forgive me for not finding that "exciting". It is beyond frustrating to me that only Newey seems to be able to design a decent F1 car. Why for goodness sake can't the likes of Mercedes, Ferrari and McLaren get their act together and produce a car that can challenge the Red Bull? There are so many great drivers in F1 today, yet their careers are being ruined by the relentless Red Bull juggernaut. 

 

As for Humphrey, well when was he ever interested in F1? I never liked him and I thought he was extremely biased towards Jenson Button...he always seemed to enjoy having a go at Lewis, especially after the 2010 Australian GP. I was so angry after that race that I even posted a couple of messages on the blog he had at the time. He always seemed to prefer football anyway. 

The bolded is borderline schizo. First sentence is spot on. Second one is ridiculous. Redbull is ruining Alo and Ham's career?

A Race is still boring if you already know who the winner will be - don't even know why Lewis had to clarify because it was obvious he likes and gets on well with Seb he was just saying races have become boring for the fans and this is backed up from the majority of feedback.

 

Because the stupid media had a go on Lewis "not respecting" Vettel  enough

It's stupid but that's the way the media twists the words, makes wrong headlines, and most people do not even read the articles beyond

Edited by Raven8, 08 October 2013 - 12:27.