VETT5L V6TTEL and VE77EL, will Seb match Schumis records?

As for your discuss which vale statistics have, I copy and paste my earlier post:

And what about today? Their biggest problem was that Kimi clinched the fastest lap from Seb. I can imagine Seb whining and crying the whole night long about it. I am really waiting a time when Seb has bigger issues then choosing the latest helmet design or setting the fastest times at the end of the races: when he has to drive his a## out to get a 5th place on the grid as Alonso had to do in recent years or when he has to fight like hell to keep tyre deg under control like the Mercedes guys had to do earlier. Real racing and fight: when Seb is forced to do that and if he is able to master even in those times, than yeah, everyone will say he is doing a superb job.

China this year, who had the best car? Who had the most deg? Australia? 
He didn't have the best car in the first part of the season, Mercedes was faster i Q and Ferrari and Lotus in the race.

As for your discuss which vale statistics have, I copy and paste my earlier post:

And what about today? Their biggest problem was that Kimi clinched the fastest lap from Seb. I can imagine Seb whining and crying the whole night long about it. I am really waiting a time when Seb has bigger issues then choosing the latest helmet design or setting the fastest times at the end of the races: when he has to drive his a## out to get a 5th place on the grid as Alonso had to do in recent years or when he has to fight like hell to keep tyre deg under control like the Mercedes guys had to do earlier. Real racing and fight: when Seb is forced to do that and if he is able to master even in those times, than yeah, everyone will say he is doing a superb job.

In the first part of the season, he probably didn't have the best car and maximized his results.

You must be joking!

Yeah, he had three races where RB suffered from tyre deg more than Ferrari and Lotus: Australia, Spain, China, but even in those qualies they were tremendously fast: in Australia: RB dominated the wet session, they had a nice speed in Spain and China as well. So he had three races where he didn't have the best car. Alonso would beg to get such a "bad" car which Vettel had in China, Australia or China.

RB dominated Malaysia, Bahrain, Canada, Germany (overall, Lotus were strong in the race), Spa, Monza, Singapure, Korea, India, Suzuka. Oh, my god! Please, I beg you, don't claim Vettel had a hard time this season. At all the other races he was capable to get onto the podium. That was again a superb year for RB's technical staff.

Edited by Forma1, 28 October 2013 - 07:59.

You must be joking!

Yeah, he had three races where RB suffered from tyre deg more than Ferrari and Lotus: Australia, Spain, China, but even in those qualies they were tremendously fast: in Australia: RB dominated the wet session, they had a nice speed in Spain and China as well. So he had three races where he didn't have the best car. Alonso would beg to get such a "bad" car which Vettel had in China, Australia or China.

 

RB dominated Malaysia, Bahrain, Canada, Germany (overall, Lotus were strong in the race), Spa, Monza, Singapure, Korea, India, Suzuka. Oh, my god! Please, I beg you, don't claim Vettel had a hard time this season. At all the other races he was capable to get onto the podium. That was again a superb year for RB's technical staff.

I wasn't joking. I was referring to the races in the first part of the season - before the summer break. You can go through forum threads like this one: http://forums.autosp...-pecking-order/ Even in your own poll at http://forums.autosp...he-year-so-far/ you only have the RB9 leading due to late voters (it turned out to be the best car later) and phrasing it as "most consistent" (which the RB9 was indeed in my opinion).

We discussed the topic of RB domination in Germany (I think that was far from domination) in a different thread. Maybe it's better to leave it there. In Bahrain, Webber struggled with tyres and finished P7 with the Lotus in P2 and P3 - not really team domination either. The 6 last races you mention were after the summer break. It's clear the RB9 is the best car this season, but I don't think that was the case in the earlier part.

RB dominated Germany (overall, Lotus were strong in the race)

When someone acknowledges another car was strong, yet still chooses the word domination, it's a good indication said person doesn't know what he's talking about.

When someone acknowledges another car was strong, yet still chooses the word domination, it's a good indication said person doesn't know what he's talking about.

When some is desperately searching for one single expression which could be refined it is a good indication the person is lost.

Yeah, in Germany Lotus had a very good race car, but in qualy the RB were better, so overall the RB were the best car. It doesn't change the fast RB had a very strong car at every single weekend and dominated load of the races this year again. You can try and hang on one of my word, but won't change the fact Seb has been enjoying a shocking car advantage for four years.

When some is desperately searching for one single expression which could be refined it is a good indication the person is lost.

You keep using the word dominating because it makes you easy to fool people into thinking it was easy. No one in their right mind would use the word dominating when describing victories like in Germany (where most people not you agree Lotus was the best car), Bahrain or Hungary, to name a few. Your deliberate mislabeling makes it seems that Germany was a worthless win in a 'dominating car' while Hamilton only won in the 'best car'.

Michael Schumacher's point of view about this subject:

Michael Schumacher says he would be "pretty happy" if Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel went on to break his world records of wins and world titles.

Schumacher quit F1 with seven titles and 91 wins. Vettel is on course to win a fourth consecutive championship this year and has 31 wins at the age of 26.

He said: "A friend of mine achieving it, it stays 'in the family'."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/23961128

 

You keep using the word dominating because it makes you easy to fool people into thinking it was easy. No one in their right mind would use the word dominating when describing victories like in Germany (where most people not you agree Lotus was the best car), Bahrain or Hungary, to name a few. Your deliberate mislabeling makes it seems that Germany was a worthless win in a 'dominating car' while Hamilton only won in the 'best car'.

 

 

 

If such a simplistic viewpoint was correct, why do you list some of the races in which Mercedes was better as dominant by Red Bull. Or does your little double standard suddenly not apply anymore then?    

 

Most of your words are a load of bs, but if I were to hang onto some people's words, I'd rather hang on to the words of those people in the paddock who in increasing majority disagree with most everything you say. But I'm sure you keep telling yourself that as long as you apply a double standard consistently enough, you know it better than the people actually part of Formula One.

 

I have just read yor comments and how you assault other people in other topic. It was fair enough. If you can't admit RB's shocking dominance over the recent years, you haven't seen the past few seasons.

I have just read yor comments and how you assault other people in other topic. It was fair enough. If you can't admit RB's shocking dominance over the recent years, you haven't seen the past few seasons.

A much easier cop-out then owning up to your own words.

Michael Schumacher's point of view about this subject:

He said: "A friend of mine achieving it, it stays 'in the family'."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/23961128

LOL, I bet he'd've been spitting if Ralf had literally kept it in the family.

Unless he is driving Newey cars with a similar advantage to this era of F1 Regulations I doubt he'll reach 6 or 7 titles.

Newey has designed a few dogs in his time.  The new era may produce less dominant machinery if the aero/engine/chassis combination swings away from an aero dominant formula even a few percentiles.   Then we'll see if Vettel has what it takes to match his contemporaries. 

LOL, I bet he'd've been spitting if Ralf had literally kept it in the family.

I have no idea but next time I have a chance, I'll ask him. 

Well - it all depends, doesn't it? 

If Red Bull continues to make dominant cars, theh it stands to reason that Vettel will continue to win WDC's.. doesn't it? So the real question is, "can red bill continue to dominate"? 

Well - it all depends, doesn't it? 

 

If Red Bull continues to make dominant cars, theh it stands to reason that Vettel will continue to win WDC's.. doesn't it? So the real question is, "can red bill continue to dominate"? 

Or; is Ricciardo better than Webber and, more crucially, allowed to take the challenge to Vettel?

Unless he is driving Newey cars with a similar advantage to this era of F1 Regulations I doubt he'll reach 6 or 7 titles.

 

Newey has designed a few dogs in his time.  The new era may produce less dominant machinery if the aero/engine/chassis combination swings away from an aero dominant formula even a few percentiles.   Then we'll see if Vettel has what it takes to match his contemporaries. 

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 28 October 2013 - 12:02.

Or; is Ricciardo better than Webber and, more crucially, allowed to take the challenge to Vettel?

In a few months, we'll find out. 

I wonder how many people would have predicted, at the end of 2006, that Alonso would still only have two titles seven years later. It's very easy to get carried away given Red Bull's success, particularly in the last few races, but there are radical rule changes next year and it is very possible that a new team will emerge as the dominant force. If that happens, Vettel could still be on four titles in 2020.

I wonder how many people would have predicted, at the end of 2006, that Alonso would still only have two titles seven years later. It's very easy to get carried away given Red Bull's success, particularly in the last few races, but there are radical rule changes next year and it is very possible that a new team will emerge as the dominant force. If that happens, Vettel could still be on four titles in 2020.

I was going to raise this point.

I wonder how many people would have predicted, at the end of 2006, that Alonso would still only have two titles seven years later. It's very easy to get carried away given Red Bull's success, particularly in the last few races, but there are radical rule changes next year and it is very possible that a new team will emerge as the dominant force. If that happens, Vettel could still be on four titles in 2020.

Or he could double his titles to eight (8) by 2020. Nobody knows given the uncertain nature of formula engine for next year.

Or he could double his titles to eight (8) by 2020. Nobody knows given the uncertain nature of formula engine for next year.

Which all just proves the point I keep making - success is  down to the car. Same for Vettel as for everyone else.

it is highly possible that he will touch Schumi or surpass him...particularly if RB again shows upper hands in new regulation...

Which all just proves the point I keep making - success is  down to the car. Same for Vettel as for everyone else.

Were you saying the same about Alonso last year?

Were you saying the same about Alonso last year?

Alonso's inferior car in 2012 was visible, especially considering that he only won one race on merit alone (both Malaysia and Valencia were miracles).

I'm not so sure if I could say the same about the Red Bull's since mid-2009.

Michael Schumacher's point of view about this subject:

 

Michael Schumacher says he would be "pretty happy" if Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel went on to break his world records of wins and world titles.

Schumacher quit F1 with seven titles and 91 wins. Vettel is on course to win a fourth consecutive championship this year and has 31 wins at the age of 26.

He said: "A friend of mine achieving it, it stays 'in the family'."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/23961128

Top racer and a top bloke... it was heartbreaking when he retired.

Alonso's inferior car in 2012 was visible, especially considering that he only won one race on merit alone (both Malaysia and Valencia were miracles).

 

I'm not so sure if I could say the same about the Red Bull's since mid-2009.

Alonso should have properly won the WDC in 2010... last year, the car was piss poor in qualifying, but it wasn't so bad in races. Had he not cocked it up at Suzuka, he would have easily won the WDC. He was 29 points ahead of Vettel after Singapore with 6 races to go... would you like to explain what happened? Alonso only scored 84 points to Vettel's 116 in last 6 races... please don't tell me that Alonso got the maximum out of the package, as that doesn't include points lost at Suzuka. After Singapore GP last year, Alonso had 3 wins to 2 of Vettel (RBR had 4 wins to 3 of Ferrari, so not too bad eh?). Then, like it or not, it was a masterclass from Vettel, and Alonso was schooled. This is coming from a tifoso... well, take it for what it is worth. Do remember that Vettel retired twice last year with reliability issues... Alonso was unfortunate to be a passenger in one incident (and that was before Singapore), and in the other, is to be blamed for his actions. RBR may have been faster on occasions, but was more fragile, and Ferrari was not much far behind when it came to race pace. I mean, i believe Alonso is one of the best on the grid, but he couldn't do that in a Mercedes this year, if that is what you're trying to suggest...

Edited by garagetinkerer, 29 October 2013 - 03:00.

Alonso's inferior car in 2012 was visible, especially considering that he only won one race on merit alone (both Malaysia and Valencia were miracles).

 

I'm not so sure if I could say the same about the Red Bull's since mid-2009.

So it's not the "Same for Vettel as for everyone else".

I wonder how many people would have predicted, at the end of 2006, that Alonso would still only have two titles seven years later. It's very easy to get carried away given Red Bull's success, particularly in the last few races, but there are radical rule changes next year and it is very possible that a new team will emerge as the dominant force. If that happens, Vettel could still be on four titles in 2020.

I know there's probably a separate thread for this, but aren't we still getting formula aero next year? I trust Newey to stay way on top of things, and I don't see why Seb would all of a sudden have a dip in his performance. The dude's driven, hence my newly-acquired (and perhaps belated) respect for him.

Granted, the engines will change, but there's little in Renault's history to suggest they would produce an absolute dud. And even if they did, we will see the kinds of adjustments we saw in the last engine change. All about the equal playing field and all.

Having written this, I now feel compelled to go read the rules and regulations changes for next year. Yay, fun.

Edited by alpinesmuggler, 29 October 2013 - 08:32.

great job by both Vettel and the team!! Amazing to see Vettel get better and better every season.

He'll match them if RBR continues to provide him with the fastest car and lackluster teammates.

Alonso should have properly won the WDC in 2010... last year, the car was piss poor in qualifying, but it wasn't so bad in races. Had he not cocked it up at Suzuka, he would have easily won the WDC. He was 29 points ahead of Vettel after Singapore with 6 races to go... would you like to explain what happened? Alonso only scored 84 points to Vettel's 116 in last 6 races... please don't tell me that Alonso got the maximum out of the package, as that doesn't include points lost at Suzuka. After Singapore GP last year, Alonso had 3 wins to 2 of Vettel (RBR had 4 wins to 3 of Ferrari, so not too bad eh?). Then, like it or not, it was a masterclass from Vettel, and Alonso was schooled. This is coming from a tifoso... well, take it for what it is worth. Do remember that Vettel retired twice last year with reliability issues... Alonso was unfortunate to be a passenger in one incident (and that was before Singapore), and in the other, is to be blamed for his actions. RBR may have been faster on occasions, but was more fragile, and Ferrari was not much far behind when it came to race pace. I mean, i believe Alonso is one of the best on the grid, but he couldn't do that in a Mercedes this year, if that is what you're trying to suggest...

More stuffes to note

-did he cock it up in Suzuka? He was tangled by Kimi, it was a racing incident

-Vettel never crashes at starts. Let gimme time to laugh. Yes, cos he always starts from the front. Alonso is always right in the mix and starting from P5-8 involves much more risk. Don't feel the need to explain it any further.

-Rb were far better in every single qualy, and much better in terms of race pase as well in the second half of the season.

More stuffes to note

 

-did he cock it up in Suzuka? He was tangled by Kimi, it was a racing incident

 

-Vettel never crashes at starts. Let gimme time to laugh. Yes, cos he always starts from the front. Alonso is always right in the mix and starting from P5-8 involves much more risk. Don't feel the need to explain it any further.

-Rb were far better in every single qualy, and much better in terms of race pase as well in the second half of the season.

Yes, it was a monumental cock up... have you heard of managing the points gap? All he needed to do was that, and it was somewhat unnecessary for him to try and force the issue on Kimi as it was. It was very uncharacteristic of him... and that pretty much cost him the WDC.

Oh, so you think knocking on Vettel cause he qualifies better is appropriate? How is it Vettel's fault that he qualifies better? You must think Senna was properly **** then (65 pole positions, but only 41 wins)!

Far better? I think you have RBR confused with McLaren... but since you keep re-writing facts to your convenience, perhaps my time will be better off doing something else.

I know there's probably a separate thread for this, but aren't we still getting formula aero next year? I trust Newey to stay way on top of things, and I don't see why Seb would all of a sudden have a dip in his performance. The dude's driven, hence my newly-acquired (and perhaps belated) respect for him.

 

Granted, the engines will change, but there's little in Renault's history to suggest they would produce an absolute dud. And even if they did, we will see the kinds of adjustments we saw in the last engine change. All about the equal playing field and all.

 

Having written this, I now feel compelled to go read the rules and regulations changes for next year. Yay, fun. 

Despite engine homologation for next year, the engine manufacturers will have quite a leeway to play with the engine. Renault Sports are not in the best position financially to aggressively upgrade or fine-tune the engine, compared to Ferrari or Mercedes. Aero would take a backseat to engine as they are highly restricted and will not feature prominently on next year's car. I don't think Renault would prevail in an engine development war between them, Ferrari and Mercedes, and that may spell troubles for RB10 and RBR.

I believe Vettel would have done a better job with the Ferrari this year. As good a racer as Alonso is, he has never been a good qualifyer. If aVettel would have qualified the Ferrari an average of 3 places up, with the amazing Ferrari starts he would have been much closer to the front from the start. And the racepace from the Ferrari has not been that bad. The BB would have exploded with threads about launch control though

Why do you think Seb is a better qualifier than Fernando; And how the hell can you assume he is as good races as Alo?

Could he qualify 3 places higher? Yeah, in your dream. How can you think Seb would do the same starts and the same bolds, fantastic moves Alonso has been doing at the starts;

You practiacally discredit all the hard work Alonso has done and you consider all of them as something Vettel could easily do?

Ok, you hate Alonso, but discrediting all he has done is just a bit rubbish. That is why I behave so annoying sometimes, I just can`t stand people who are really in love with Sebastian and dimiss every other driver.

 

 

Far better? I think you have RBR confused with McLaren... but since you keep re-writing facts to your convenience, perhaps my time will be better off doing something else.

McLaren were woefully inconsistent in the second half of 2012, RB were much more consistent overall.

If you look at Lewis's second half, he either won the race, or was hindered/retired due to mechanical issues. The exception being Brazil where Hulky smashed into him, and India were RB was dominant.

In qualifying though, both were better than the Ferrari pretty much every weekend in the  2nd half if I recall right, maybe Monza was a exception.

Edited by sennafan24, 29 October 2013 - 15:45.

Why do you think Seb is a better qualifier than Fernando; And how the hell can you assume he is as good races as Alo?

Could he qualify 3 places higher? Yeah, in your dream. How can you think Seb would do the same starts and the same bolds, fantastic moves Alonso has been doing at the starts;

You practiacally discredit all the hard work Alonso has done and you consider all of them as something Vettel could easily do?

Ok, you hate Alonso, but discrediting all he has done is just a bit rubbish. That is why I behave so annoying sometimes, I just can`t stand people who are really in love with Sebastian and dimiss every other driver.

I don't do black and white, I don't hate people. That is plain stupid. I could answer I know this the same way you know Vettel's success is all about Red Bull, but that would be sad from me. Just following f1 and Alonso should make you realize qualifying was never his strongest point. He could compensate it in races, but not this year.

Ok, if you dare to claim Alonso is not a really good qualifier, I would say Seb is not a tremendously good racer. You can say he has showed lot of overtaking manoeures in the past two years, but we can not forget the fact he enjoyed 0,8-1,8 second advantage depending on the actual sitatuation, driver he fought against, etc.

Why did not win Seb in Australia, China or Barca? In the latter place he was beaten even by Felipe. I know it is hard to accept, but Seb has been enjoying a dominant car year after year after year, it is not a hard work for anyone to shine in such a dominant machinery.

 

Why did not win Seb in Australia, China or Barca? In the latter place he was beaten even by Felipe. I know it is hard to accept, but Seb has been enjoying a dominant car year after year after year, it is not a hard work for anyone to shine in such a dominant machinery.

The early parts of 2012 the RB was woefully inconsistent, so was Seb at times to be fair but he found a balance by the second half.

By years end it was the best overall car over the full year in my opinion, but it did struggle until the second half in spurts.

Edited by sennafan24, 29 October 2013 - 16:00.

McLaren were woefully inconsistent in the second half of 2012, RB were much more consistent overall.

 

If you look at Lewis's second half, he either won the race, or was hindered/retired due to mechanical issues. The exception being Brazil where Hulky smashed into him, and India were RB was dominant.

 

In qualifying though, both were better than the Ferrari pretty much every weekend in the  2nd half if I recall right, maybe Monza was a exception.

Inconsistent performance by team, lack of reliability doesn't make it a slow car mate, does it?

Ok, if you dare to claim Alonso is not a really good qualifier, I would say Seb is not a tremendously good racer. You can say he has showed lot of overtaking manoeures in the past two years, but we can not forget the fact he enjoyed 0,8-1,8 second advantage depending on the actual sitatuation, driver he fought against, etc.

 

Why did not win Seb in Australia, China or Barca? In the latter place he was beaten even by Felipe. I know it is hard to accept, but Seb has been enjoying a dominant car year after year after year, it is not a hard work for anyone to shine in such a dominant machinery.

What is Barca? A country, a city? 

Just kidding, Barça is our football team and if you want to shorten Barcelona, you must say Barna 

That's it! 

Inconsistent performance by team, lack of reliability doesn't make it a slow car mate, does it?

Sort of, depends on if you are just on about qualifying

Lewis had that anti roll bar thing in Korea 2012, and suspension problems throughout Japan 2012 weekend. Whilst none of these caused DNF's, they did slow the car down through unreliability.

What is Barca? A country, a city? 

 

Just kidding, Barça is our football team and if you want to shorten Barcelona, you must say Barna 

 

That's it! 

Common mistake under germans, every time I hear this, I have to laugh

Edited by SinStorm, 29 October 2013 - 17:17.

Common mistake under germans, every time I hear this, I have to laugh

I assure you that not only Germans...     

And to make things worse, a "barca" in English is a small boat.         

Despite engine homologation for next year, the engine manufacturers will have quite a leeway to play with the engine. Renault Sports are not in the best position financially to aggressively upgrade or fine-tune the engine, compared to Ferrari or Mercedes. Aero would take a backseat to engine as they are highly restricted and will not feature prominently on next year's car. I don't think Renault would prevail in an engine development war between them, Ferrari and Mercedes, and that may spell troubles for RB10 and RBR.

the trouble will be compensated by Vettel's talent of 2 sec speed advantage in qualifying, nothing to worry about

Well - it all depends, doesn't it? 

 

If Red Bull continues to make dominant cars, theh it stands to reason that Vettel will continue to win WDC's.. doesn't it? So the real question is, "can red bill continue to dominate"? 

I don't think Vettel needs dominant cars.   No one wins the championship in a midfield car, but a car "as good as the best" would give him a very good shot at the title imo.  Certainly if he kept to the form he demonstrated this season.

Edited by Winter98, 29 October 2013 - 18:38.

What is Barca? A country, a city? 

 

Just kidding, Barça is our football team and if you want to shorten Barcelona, you must say Barna 

 

That's it! 

Muchas gracias! Me gusta Barca muy, Barna no me gusta. Barca sound a bit better, but that's it. I think it's the very same with Milan. We call it Milano in Germany, in Italian it's called Milano, but many people here think it's called Milan, which the football team will be referred to with.

So I try to burn it into my brain: Barna.

Muchas gracias! Me gusta Barca muy, Barna no me gusta. Barca sound a bit better, but that's it. I think it's the very same with Milan. We call it Milano in Germany, in Italian it's called Milano, but many people here think it's called Milan, which the football team will be referred to with.

So I try to burn it into my brain: Barna.

Thanks for your Spanish, that was sweet.  

Well if you want to call my city "little boat" I won't get mad.

But for us, Barca sounds funny.

Edited by RosannaG, 29 October 2013 - 18:57.