Le Mans: How much do you care about the racing outside the outright works P1 battle?

As the title and poll questions say, what do you think of the other cars racing around La Sarthe.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 10 November 2013 - 15:19.

I voted for every class. It is multi class racing, part of the appeal is all the separate races and battles going on in one race. Besides, if you only focused on P1, Le Mans might not have been very interesting to follow some years, particularly when it was only really Audi/Peugeot in with a shot of winning it.

 

GT racing could be better, but it's fine as it is now really in my opinion. Same for class structure.

 

By the way, could I suggest we have a generic sports car racing thread? Most other forms of racing already have their own...makes it easier than having lots of individual threads.

By the way, could I suggest we have a generic sports car racing thread? Most other forms of racing already have their own...makes it easier than having lots of individual threads.

 

Probably yes but since there are literally millions of F1 threads around flooding this place completely*, it would sink below the radar faster than the speed of light without someone trying to bump it up every couple of days. And (unfortunately) there's not as much interest here towards sportscars as there is for say bikes. Furthermore, as you can see most of my threads here have polls which require multiple threads. Poll making is one of my primary reasons for not abandoning this forum yet to be honest

 

* which is why I hate the layout of Autosport forums, different racing categories should be separated into their own areas and not thrown into one big confusing basket

Edited by SonnyViceR, 10 November 2013 - 15:33.

I care about the "privateer" P1s and the P2s to some extent, but I mainly care about the GTE Pro class, because I‘m rooting for Ferrari. When I first started to take a serious interest in sportscars the FIA GT Championship had some awesome machinery in it. Very quickly, FIA GT got ruined by SRO and the cars began to resemble ordinary touring cars with a premium badge on them. I understand there‘s a desire to make GT cars more road relevant, but I‘m rather opposed to that. Roads are for transport. Racetracks are for racing. Neither the design of the roads nor the design of the cars ought to be alike in the very different realms of transport and racing. The GT cars that are raced now are pretty similar to their roadgoing cousins in many ways, and this involves compromises that make the road cars not particularly practical and the race cars not as quick and not as exciting as they used to be.

Only category I'm not that bothered about is GTE-Am. Just not interested by gentleman drivers trundling round for fun, and some of the driving standards have been sketchy at best the last few years at Le Mans with these guys.

 

P1 is interesting because it's for the overall win. P2 because of the tight field and high driving standard (for the most part), and GTE is the P1 of GT cars, manufacturers and pro drivers going at it.

 

Would like to see GT3 cars in place of GTE-Am... it might give some more pro drivers a chance and the cars are just as fast as the GTE ones.. also would love to see some small lightweight prototypes that perhaps would have a spec engine but freedom on chassis design or something similar.

I care for LMP2 and GT Pro and would definitely like a comeback of ligthweight prototypes

 

As you, I'm not a big fan of BOP as I'm not a fan of anything artificial but the GTs are still giving some good racing.

GTE-Pro needs a greater selection of cars, but same can be said of P1.

 

P2 and GTE-Am don't really interest me.

There's naturally more interest in the fastest cars and the cameras do mostly follow them, but as a neutral fan who watches only one sportscar race per year (Le Mans) my interest in the other classes depends upon how close they the competition is on the day.

GTE-Pro needs a greater selection of cars

 

No, it needs less models*... because more there is variety in GTE/GT2, the more it seems that ACO adds waiver exceptions and follows the stupid FIA GT3 model (= all comes down to Balance of freaking Performance)

 

* or better yet, rulebook that actually works! GT+/GT won't do that I'm afraid...

Edited by SonnyViceR, 11 November 2013 - 15:42.

I watch for the prototypes first and foremost, so P1 and P2 get most of my attention during any given race. The GTs then get my attention away from the prototypes when they're either in their way or when they decide to start the door-banging.

Overall, though, I'm always keeping up with the major battles in every class in multi-class racing. It's just that the prototypes interest me most (with the exception of LMPC). I like the GTE-Pro class, but if GTE-Am is anything like GTC was here in the States, then I'm afraid I'd rather see it replaced by GT3. A single-make GT-class is fun but I'd rather have a greater variety of cars given the choice.

The class system works quite well now, for the most part, I think. I wouldn't want to see any more than five classes, because that's the point where--for me personally, anyway--information overload starts.

Edited by Afterburner, 11 November 2013 - 17:47.

When GT1 and GT2 (as it was) were still out there, they were abso-freaking-lutely my main attraction for Le Mans: nothing, not even the factory LMP1s interested me as much. Two separate categories with distinctive machinery and great teams all around (not this pro-am crap all around). Now with the modern LMGTE it's just mismash-BoP-crap without rules, and don't even get me started about the GTE-AM... the only truly remarkable thing left in the category for me is Corvette Racing that I'm still fan of, despite all the messing around.

 

I've always liked P1 as sort of a side meal if you will, but after I fell out of love with the GT classes it has now got my primary attention. So if we count out the P1 factories, as per my own poll rules, the "category" I'm most interested about besides them is actually the P1 privateers! Which is why my big hope is that we'll see a better turnout from them when the new regs are introduced.

 

As for LMP2, never cared about (675 excluded). Except when the Porsche Spyders and Acuras were circulating around, but even then the ACO refused to give them any power when they came to visit from America. Now with all that cost cap proam orecanissan opentopsharkfin -stuff it's extremely hard to get excited.

 

G56? Hah! Okay, something like guest Super GT500 would be fun to see...

 

Of course, despite all of this, sometimes there are certain teams or cars in the other categories (like AM and P2) that genuinely get me excited, but in those cases I don't really pay attention to anything else but how they are doing up there.

Edited by SonnyViceR, 11 November 2013 - 19:36.

I miss the GT1's from the 2000's. I think LMP1, LMP2, GT+(1) and GT(am) should be the class structure. A single higher powered GT class is ideal imo. It might be closer to lmp2 pace, but lmp2 could get faster with less weight or a little more engine power. P1 should be fine with the hybrid power for the factory teams and lighter weight/fuel allowance for private teams.

the gt cars aren't much slower on the straights, a beast gt1 would probably be just as quick..

Thats why you drop weight or increase power on lmp2 in 2016/17 (when the new GT rules also hit). By that time lmp1 will have gotten faster as well and there wont be any fears of lmp2 getting too close. GT1 raced lmp2 before, things were fine!

I love it all, whatever is going on. Le Mans is the best thing ever for me

GT1 raced lmp2 before, things were fine!

 

Back in the day they were more reliable too, meaning that you had the chance of seeing GT1s in top5 overall at the end of the race - now that was fun. Too bad that as soon as the P2 guys started complaining about the superiority of the GT1 speeds on straights circa 2006-ish, the ACO slowened them down year after year. I don't get why the GT cars can't be on par with the prototypes

 

By the looks of things GT+/GT (or whatever name they come up with) sounds like another BoP class loosely tied with some sort of hollow rulebook, and I doubt the ACO allows them to be any faster than LMGTE currently is.

 

btw - I'm quite surprised that GT4 has gained five votes already on the third poll, tbh I was dead sure that no-one was going to go for that

Edited by SonnyViceR, 12 November 2013 - 17:35.

I remember when Dodge then Chevrolet won the Daytona 24 hrs.

 

Well that annoyed the GARRA so badly they changed the rules so that would never happen again.

 

I guess the ACO learned a lot from its dealing with Big Bill France in the seventies to the point of copying his son's rules that made real racing impossible.

Only the chosen few can finish high in the field, much less win the race.

I don't care for LMP2 at all. It's unfortunate that LMP1 is so expensive that there needs to be another class to have a reasonable amount of prototypes per race. 

 

GT1/GT2 of the 00s was great, though a single class could work too as long as it's not a bop farce.

GT1/GT2 of the 00s was great, though a single class could work too as long as it's not a bop farce.

 

There's smaller chance of that happening if it's not just single class.

Started this thread last year about it http://www.ten-tenth...ad.php?t=134258

 

Also, a more up-to-date version of my personal view from RLM forums (http://radiolemans.0...d-gt-class-2015) now that we also know of the GT+/GT planning (too tired to write it again so just copypaste):

 

 

AUDI: "There are some parties that are more focused on technical regulations, but if it's focused on that, the costs will go up. -- So if you really go into the details and rules, you are allowed to modify this or that in that way. Because in GT, the concepts of the cars are so different, it's almost impossible to find technical rules to combine cars that are following different concepts. All of these concepts are competitive. I think it's impossible."

 

1) Audi is a participant of a full BoP category so they cannot possibly have the fairest opinion on this
2) Again, WHAT IS SAID ABOVE WAS PERFECTLY POSSIBLE SOME FIVE YEARS AGO IN GT1 and GT2. There was some BoP (or success ballast particularly in FIA GT) yes but it was limited and not intended to act as a general helping hand. I already showed you what the regs said few years ago so you've got the picture.

 

It's very simple: more variety, more BoP comes to play (in the current way of thinking). And the way to fix that, as opposed to BoP lotteries is a multi class GT formula based on capacity and other figures. IT IS THE ONLY WAY TO HAVE DIFFERENT CARS AND PHILOSOPHIES ON TRACK WITHOUT RESORTING TO WWE GIMMICKS. It has always been a part of GT racing, you only hurt yourself if you throw everything into one basket. And that's exactly what has happened in the last few years. Different makes make different models for different purposes, making it extremely difficult to have all cars under one ruleset. You would have never justified a Lotus Evora or BMW M3 badged touring car competing for a GT1 victories when all the other cars were more or less exotic models. This new base car & kit thing sounds like an attempt to have some rules, but at the same times not - which sounds pretty familiar to me. And once again every single car manufacturer has to obey to one set of rules (or none at all if half of the manufacturers that want to follow the BoP only route get their wish granted) which makes the life very difficult.

 

You can see how the attitudes how changed at the ACO:

 

Vincent Beaumesnil, June 2013

 

ACO LM GT1 & LM GT2 technical 2009 regulation rulebook:

Edited by SonnyViceR, 12 November 2013 - 19:23.

Just looking at the poll options brings up the main problem with sportscar racing for someone like me. I enjoy watching it, but I'm not fanatical enough to watch year in-year out. Just taking a few years out I have no clue what any of the classes actually mean except for the headline grabbing LMP1s.

 

I usually take an interest in the top level Le Mans battle. So I tend to remain up to speed on what's going on there. The peak of my interest there recently was during the Peugeot/Audi battle.

 

When it comes to GTs I enjoyed the mid-2000s involving the Astons and Corvettes. The last time I really followed GT racing was a couple of years in the early 2000s when you had Lister Storms and Vipers and stuff in FIA GT (was that it? I can't even remember now).

 

I feel like at the moment it's just a major battle to understand who's in what class in what series.

I had interest in the GT categories for quite some time but lost it once USA style `big-block` engine with primitive valve technology took over and made smaller hi-tech engines with or without turbo no reasonable option anymore. Cheered for every team that beat Corvettes, Astons and that kind of bigblockers.
Wished more competitors (engine manufacturers in particular) took up LMP2 to make that category more interesting to compensate.
so I hope that neither Toyota, nor Audi will withdraw next year so we art last can see a threeway battle betwween top LMP1 teams again.

Henri

Edited by Henri Greuter, 13 November 2013 - 12:19.

Just taking a few years out I have no clue what any of the classes actually mean except for the headline grabbing LMP1s.

With Le Mans in particular, it's fairly easy to recognize the classes from each other. Both LMP1 and P2 have been there for over a decade now (they're the follow ups of the LMP900 and 675), and LMGTE is a follow up to LMGT2 (formerly known as LMGT, and before that as GT3). The only classes that has actually died this century is the 'new' LMGT1 (formerly known as LMGTS, and before that GT2), and LMGTP if you count that.

 

With series it's a bit more complicated

 

 

so I hope that neither Toyota, nor Audi will withdraw next year so we art last can see a threeway battle betwween top LMP1 teams again.

Henri

 

Both will be there, check

http://forums.autosp...r-le-mans-2014/

Edited by SonnyViceR, 13 November 2013 - 15:13.

With Le Mans in particular, it's fairly easy to recognize the classes from each other. Both LMP1 and P2 have been there for over a decade now (they're the follow ups of the LMP900 and 675), and LMGTE is a follow up to LMGT2 (formerly known as LMGT, and before that as GT3). The only classes that has actually died this century is the 'new' LMGT1 (formerly known as LMGTS, and before that GT2), and LMGTP if you count that.

 

With series it's a bit more complicated

 

Thanks. Still slightly confused but you did help.

 

Both will be there, check

http://forums.autosp...r-le-mans-2014/

 

Yup. But remember two years ago when Toyota announced they were coming in addition to Audi and Peugeot and when the new year had begun  all of a sudden Peugeot withdrew so it still was a twoway battle again?

And now, with Audi and Porsche under the same umbrella, Audi having an escape route already (DTM) I remain suspicious about Audi pulling out without a warning.

 

Henri

Another question.

Would you rather attend Le Mans Classic or 24 hr race?

Yup. But remember two years ago when Toyota announced they were coming in addition to Audi and Peugeot and when the new year had begun  all of a sudden Peugeot withdrew so it still was a twoway battle again?

And now, with Audi and Porsche under the same umbrella, Audi having an escape route already (DTM) I remain suspicious about Audi pulling out without a warning.

 

Henri

 

Believe me, I'm always one of the more skeptical ones, especially seeing as they're both VW brands (but then again they didn't have any problems with it in the Spyder LMP2 days). And Toyota, had they won LM this year I'm dead sure they had immediately withdrawn their cars immediately from racing...

 

However, when Pug pulled out it was al because of the massive financial downhill the French were/are fitnessing, Audi nor Toyota don't have those problems. Well okay Toyota/TMG sort of has since the parent company doesn't give them any budget for racing (hence their half-assed efforts currently) but that's just stupidity from their part

 

Another question.

Would you rather attend Le Mans Classic or 24 hr race?

 

24, any day... I mean I love the historics but the Classic is just not the same at all, and besides they don't really cover all the time periods... besides you get the vintage aspect of LM anyway on the Saturday morning Legends support race, even if the ACO is stubborn to only rotate between Group C and 1949-65 period.

Just looking at the poll options brings up the main problem with sportscar racing for someone like me. I enjoy watching it, but I'm not fanatical enough to watch year in-year out. Just taking a few years out I have no clue what any of the classes actually mean except for the headline grabbing LMP1s.

 

I usually take an interest in the top level Le Mans battle. So I tend to remain up to speed on what's going on there. The peak of my interest there recently was during the Peugeot/Audi battle.

 

When it comes to GTs I enjoyed the mid-2000s involving the Astons and Corvettes. The last time I really followed GT racing was a couple of years in the early 2000s when you had Lister Storms and Vipers and stuff in FIA GT (was that it? I can't even remember now).

 

I feel like at the moment it's just a major battle to understand who's in what class in what series.

 

The silent majority agrees with you.

Maybe it's different if you go there in person though?

Believe me, I'm always one of the more skeptical ones, especially seeing as they're both VW brands (but then again they didn't have any problems with it in the Spyder LMP2 days). And Toyota, had they won LM this year I'm dead sure they had immediately withdrawn their cars immediately from racing...

 

However, when Pug pulled out it was al because of the massive financial downhill the French were/are fitnessing, Audi nor Toyota don't have those problems. Well okay Toyota/TMG sort of has since the parent company doesn't give them any budget for racing (hence their half-assed efforts currently) but that's just stupidity from their part

 

 

As for the Porsche Spyder you mention: Don't forget that, at least at Le Mans, they were no direct opponents for the overall victory and thus no worry for Audi. Unlike in the USA but that's a different story.

 

Will be more confident in seeing a threeway battle at Le Mans once I see the official entry lists and even more when the warmup lap starts and we are certain that we have no repeats like 1987 (Sauber forced to withdraw after tire troubles) and 1999 (Mercedes not withdrawing an unstable car)

 

Don't get me wrong, I dearly hope to see them all but someting in my mind can't ignore that uncertain feeling.....

 

 

Henri

As for the Porsche Spyder you mention: Don't forget that, at least at Le Mans, they were no direct opponents for the overall victory and thus no worry for Audi. Unlike in the USA but that's a different story.

 

I was talking about the ALMS specifically yes. And Penske winning Sebring in particular in front of Audi proved everything

Those LMP1 Audi's are just awesome. In pure style and speed. Love them. But I think all the other categories mixed bring the real unique in the Le Mans Series. I enjoy to see it very much. I just can't figure the tech diference between LMP1 and LMP2.

Edited by Taxi, 14 November 2013 - 19:03.

As for the Porsche Spyder you mention: Don't forget that, at least at Le Mans, they were no direct opponents for the overall victory and thus no worry for Audi. Unlike in the USA but that's a different story.

Henri

How long can LeMans keep up with its contrived rules before it ends up as a -- who really cares-- series as the IMSA and road racing in the U.S. has become?

 

When Porsche won with a b class engine, many in the U.S. pulled for dumping ACO rules and return to-- best car wins-- rules that put road racing in the U.S. on the map.

 

It was GT cars in the BOP days that saved LeMans from becoming just another also ran series.

 

On another site, I told posters that the IMSA series was heading for belly-up status in 2004 when the GT cars were penalized for being too popular.

Most of the others just kept on saying-- wait till next year--then the next year-- wait till next year--  every year for year after year..

Now the IMSA combined with GARRA has more serious problems than usually let on but a few weeks ago, in Autoweek, the bucks up teams that kept GARRA from going belly-up, said they were losing money and really had no desire to keep on with the series.

 

I see LeMans, due to the ACO, heading that way.