Kubica talks about Massa's form, Vettel and Alonso

I like this quote:

 

"Put it this way -- Vettel is in a tunnel leading straight to victory, while Alonso is in a maze where you are trying to find the way at every turn,"

More in the article.

http://www.motorspor...decline-kubica/

Well Kubica is Alonso's friend.

Fair enough. If you also disregard everything Schumacher says about Vettel...

Fair enough. If you also disregard everything Schumacher says about Vettel...

Schumi actually drove against both Vettel and Alonso at their peaks.

What is the point of this thread, exactly? To compare Alonso and Vettel? Kubica said nothing noteworthy, and as Alonso's good friend and someone who hasn't been in F1 for ages and hasn't even driven against Vettel in his current form, is hardly unbiased and well-informed.

Edited by rasul, 17 December 2013 - 10:55.

I always struggle to understand why do we need a thread after a single quote or an interview.

I always struggle to understand why do we need a thread after a single quote or an interview.

Schumi actually drove against both Vettel and Alonso at their peaks.

 

What is the point of this thread, exactly? To compare Alonso and Vettel? Kubica said nothing noteworthy, and as Alonso's good friend and someone who hasn't been in F1 for ages and hasn't even driven against Vettel in his current form, is hardly unbiased and well-informed.

IOW, you don't like what he said.  Well, it happens.

IOW, you don't like what he said.  Well, it happens.

I actually agree with some of his words. But I'm not sure why his words warrant a thread. It's not like he has some interesting insight or anything.

I always struggle to understand why do we need a thread after a single quote or an interview.

Because this is what we ask people to do rather than hijacking other threads. You are welcome to ask any of the mods or admins about it by PM if you've got further questions about the board is run, but please don't derail threads by saying how you don't think they should be here.

I always struggle to understand why do we need a thread after a single quote or an interview.

If you don't like the topic or have anything to say why do you bother?.

This is the topic where a well regarded driver gives his insight about current F1 matters, and I tried to stick to the facts.

Edited by kosmos, 17 December 2013 - 11:09.

I always struggle to understand why do we need a thread after a single quote or an interview.

Good point.

Well, it's how the mods want it.

We have also taken the decision to ban the general driver threads. .... Threads can still be started to discuss issues affecting a single driver, but this must be with a specific remit or point of discussion

 

So if one wants to discuss something specific, he has to open a new thread.

Schumi actually drove against both Vettel and Alonso at their peaks.

 

What is the point of this thread, exactly? To compare Alonso and Vettel? Kubica said nothing noteworthy, and as Alonso's good friend and someone who hasn't been in F1 for ages and hasn't even driven against Vettel in his current form, is hardly unbiased and well-informed.

Indeed. You might as well call the thread 'Bob Bigs Up His Mate'. Nothing new or wrong with that, they're human like the rest of us, but it's hardly stunning new proof of how good drivers A or B really are.

It's definitely true to an extent and a nice way of putting it, though a little exaggerated. But the analogy would be more apt if they had accomplished equal things. They haven't.

By that logic Bianchi is even more impressive since his maze is even more convoluted and has a head wind and monkeys shooting missiles at him. But Bianchi hasn't won 4 WDCs in a trot, so the maze analogy is useless in helping us understand the relative performance of drivers. 

"Any driver in the top ten of F1, in that situation, would be invincible,"

I guess Kubica doesn't rate Webber in the top ten.

"Any driver in the top ten of F1, in that situation, would be invincible,"

 

I guess Kubica doesn't rate Webber in the top ten

Dont be silly Vettel and Webber have never driven the same car in their Redbull careers.Doesnt count.

Dont be silly Vettel and Webber have never driven the same car in their Redbull careers.Doesnt count.

You mean like Alonso and Massa? 

"Any driver in the top ten of F1, in that situation, would be invincible,"

 

I guess Kubica doesn't rate Webber in the top ten.

@AndrewHope did great image post where he shown that Webber had like 2 races in whole 2013 without any major/minor technical problem.

While Vettel most of the time had forced drama with "Your tyres are at their end", and boom last lap fastest lap by 1 sec.

Schumi actually drove against both Vettel and Alonso at their peaks.

 

What is the point of this thread, exactly? To compare Alonso and Vettel? Kubica said nothing noteworthy, and as Alonso's good friend and someone who hasn't been in F1 for ages and hasn't even driven against Vettel in his current form, is hardly unbiased and well-informed.

I always struggle to understand why do we need a thread after a single quote or an interview.

• Anderis, rasul and Shiroo like this

In the equivalent thread with Webber you posted this:

Interesting insight, thank you. Mark got nothing to lose at this point, so his comments are likely his real thoughts on the matter.  

What an unpredictable U-turn, I wonder where can possible be the difference

You mean like Alonso and Massa? 

Are you high today?Alonso and Massa have the same dog of a car from Ferrari but  the Samurai outdrives it race in race out! 

Lone you should realy brush up on your 'f1 double standards' knowledge!

 

• Anderis, rasul and Shiroo like this

 

In the equivalent thread with Webber you posted this:

 

 

 

What an unpredictable U-turn, I wonder where can possible be the difference

 

 

Huh?   Webber actually drove both against Alonso and Vettel at their peaks, and he hasn't been out of F1 for ages, like Kubica. Unlike Kubica, he's got insight on Red Bull's form in 2014 and the drivers.

Maybe you should look deeper into that than as a meaningless driver vs. driver comparison. Webber's interview is actually very interesting and he gives his views on many things. I don't know about you, but it's interesting to me to hear his thoughts on Red Bull's competitiveness next season, and on various drivers' weaknesses and strengths.

In comparison, Kubica says nothing noteworthy. And unlike Kubica, Webber is more unbiased and much more well-informed, as he's Alonso's good friend and someone from inside Red Bull who's got nothing to lose by saying the truth. Kubica is a spectator like we all are. Webber is someone from inside. 

Edited by rasul, 17 December 2013 - 12:12.

 

 

"Put it this way -- Vettel is in a tunnel leading straight to victory, while Alonso is in a maze where you are trying to find the way at every turn,"

Kubica is full of ****. Red Bull and Vettel work for very hard for their success. They are all in a maze. Some just are faster finding their way out.

Edited by Gorma, 17 December 2013 - 12:32.

Kubica is full of ****. Red Bull and Vettel work for very hard for their success. They are all in a maze. Some just are faster finding their way out.

Where did Kubica suggest Redbull and Vettel don't work very hard for their success? All Kubica meant was in races, Vettel's path to victory is a lot smoother and straight than Alonso, which is correct and accurate. 

Kubica is full of ****. Red Bull and Vettel work for very hard for their success. They are all in a maze. Some just are faster finding their way out.

Put it this way; Red Bull have turned Vettel's maze into a tunnel - his life is a lot easier with the Red Bull's than Alonso's life is driving the Ferrari's.

Huh? Webber actually drove both against Alonso and Vettel at their peaks, and he hasn't been out of F1 for ages, like Kubica. Unlike Kubica, he's got insight on Red Bull's form in 2014 and the drivers.
Maybe you should look deeper into that than as a meaningless driver vs. driver comparison. Webber's interview is actually very interesting and he gives his views on many things. I don't know about you, but it's interesting to me to hear his thoughts on Red Bull's competitiveness next season, and on various drivers' weaknesses and strengths.
In comparison, Kubica says nothing noteworthy. And unlike Kubica, Webber is more unbiased and much more well-informed, as he's Alonso's good friend and someone from inside Red Bull who's got nothing to lose by saying the truth. Kubica is a spectator like we all are. Webber is someone from inside.

In terms of driving in the same team, Webber is not a less of an spectator than Kubica regarding Alonso. One can also say that talking Vettel up makes him look better, so it goes both ways. Sorry but no cigar

No driver can have two teammates, so Webber, being Alonso's good mate and Vettel's teammate for 5 years, is the next best thing to well-informed and unbiased. He's certainly more well-informed than Kubica who hasn't even been in F1 for years. You're comparing incomparable, really. 

Where did Kubica suggest Redbull and Vettel don't work very hard for their success? All Kubica meant was in races, Vettel's path to victory is a lot smoother and straight than Alonso, which is correct and accurate. 

"In contrast, in the situation like Alonso where you are always pushing so hard to win, it's a constant struggle, and the same goes for the team"

Red Bull and Vettel are pushing harder and that is why they are winning. 

Put it this way; Red Bull have turned Vettel's maze into a tunnel - his life is a lot easier with the Red Bull's than Alonso's life is driving the Ferrari's.

Nope. Red Bull and Vettel have done a better job finding their way out of the maze. Ferrari and Alonso are lost.

No driver can have two teammates, so Webber, being Alonso's good mate and Vettel's teammate for 5 years, is the next best thing to well-informed and unbiased. He's certainly more well-informed than Kubica who hasn't even been in F1 for years. You're comparing incomparable, really. 

Kubica and Vettel were teammates at BMW Sauber in 2006 and  2007. In fact, Vettel, as the team's reserve driver, even replaced Kubica after his wicked 75G crash at the Canadian GP. Vettel showed very well at the US GP, where he became the youngest driver to score points in GP history. There was so much buzz after Vettel's debut as a teen that I was sure he'd replace Kubica or Heidfeld in the team, but instead, Mario Theissen chose to allow Vettel to leave for Toro Rosso. http://en.wikipedia....ebastian_Vettel

Point being, Kubica worked with Vettel as a teammate over 2 years -- not to mention, as a competitor at Renault -- so I think you're wrong to dismiss his POV as someone who has no insight into Vettel's performance. He's hardly a spectator, given his close proximity to Vettel. Granted, in those years Vettel was just getting started (So was Kubica, pretty much!), but was already quite impressive!

Edited by PoleMan, 17 December 2013 - 13:19.

How does Robert know how hard is for RB or Vettel to win races? Does he have an insight on how much work they have to do behind the scenes to reach that level?

He only sees what we all see and for all this his opinion on this matter is perfectly respectable and even more as a racing driver but it's hardly a fact.

Kubica and Vettel were teammates at BMW Sauber in 2006 and  2007. In fact, Vettel, as the team's reserve driver, even replaced Kubica after his wicked 75G crash at the Canadian GP. Vettel showed very well at the US GP, where he became the youngest driver to score points in GP history. There was so much buzz after Vettel's debut as a teen that I was sure he'd replace Kubica or Heidfeld in the team, but instead, Mario Theissen left Vettel leave for Toro Rosso. http://en.wikipedia....ebastian_Vettel

 

Point being, Kubica worked with Vettel as a teammate over 2 years -- not to mention, as a competitor at Renault -- so I think you're wrong to dismiss his POV.

I remember all of that. I watched it too.

Only they weren't teammates. Vettel was a test driver--a rookie who hasn't even made a proper F1 debut yet. Do you really think Kubica's opinion on the team's test driver from 8 years ago has any relevance now? That a reserve driver Vettel-2006=4xWDC Vettel-2013? I think Vettel really grew as a racing driver in the last few years. Before that, he just had the speed, but didn't impress me with anything else. He was too green and his spatial awareness wasn't that great(IMO). He's a much smarter driver now. But that's beside the point.

My point is, Kubica doesn't even have a fresh information on Alonso's driving, much less on Vettel, since he's been out of F1 for years. He's a spectator, like you and me. "An inside" information is always much more interesting to me.

How does Robert know how hard is for RB or Vettel to win races? Does he have an insight on how much work they have to do behind the scenes to reach that level?
He only sees what we all see and for all this his opinion on this matter is perfectly respectable and even more as a racing driver but it's hardly a fact.

How does Robert know how hard is for RB or Vettel to win races? Does he have an insight on how much work they have to do behind the scenes to reach that level?

He only sees what we all see and for all this his opinion on this matter is perfectly respectable and even more as a racing driver but it's hardly a fact.

I haven't seen anyone say what Robert expresses is A FACT. It's just his opinion. What I challenge are those who try to liken him to an Autosport Forummer. I also added that he and Vettel were actually teammates for a short time early in their careers.

Sometimes reading some topics on this forum I think that I am reading posts of children.... Kubica received question and he just answered what he thinks, and now everyone is discussing this like it would be the end of the world, because he have his own opinion diffrent to for example Vettel fanboys.

He just said that Vettel have easier way to winning in best car than Alonso in *** car. Nothing about how much ho works. Oh...

Edited by Domi, 17 December 2013 - 13:30.

In his only two wins this season Alonso was rather in the straight tunnel than in the maze, leading easily for most of the race.... This is what happens when all pieces fall in place, everything looks so easy. He had the best car on both occasions and did 'Vettel' wins.

Edited by grichka, 17 December 2013 - 13:35.

I remember all of that. I watched it too.

Only they weren't teammates. Vettel was a test driver--a rookie who hasn't even made a proper F1 debut yet. Do you really think Kubica's opinion on the team's test driver from 8 years ago has any relevance now? That a reserve driver Vettel-2006=4xWDC Vettel-2013? I think Vettel really grew as a racing driver in the last few years. Before that, he just had the speed, but didn't impress me with anything else. He was too green and his spatial awareness wasn't that great(IMO). He's a much smarter driver now. But that's beside the point.

My point is, Kubica doesn't even have a fresh information on Alonso's driving, much less on Vettel, since he's been out of F1 for years. He's a spectator, like you and me. "An inside" information is always much more interesting to me.

Kubica has been out of F1 for 3 years. Not exactly eons ago. The current F1 cars are still operating under the same formula as when he was driving, to a large extent. They WERE TEAMMATES, though they didn't RACE against one another. Was Vettel not employed by BMW Sauber? Don't know why you are trying so hard to discredit Kubica, who, like Vettel, was considered one of the finest talents to come into the sport in recent years? I think his skill as a driver allows him to see and understand things that we can't.

But in the end it's just his opinion. Why do some feel the need to savage it?

Edited by PoleMan, 17 December 2013 - 13:40.

They should have asked him if he believes every team is starting from a clean slate in 2014.

I haven't seen anyone say what Robert expresses is A FACT. It's just his opinion. What I challenge are those who try to liken him to an Autosport Forummer. I also added that he and Vettel were actually teammates for a short time early in their careers.

Some seem to think it is or maybe it's just my interpretation. His opinion is more valid than forumers', of course, because he's a racing driver and actually knows the drivers, but I doubt he has much more data or information about how they can compare with each other being in different teams than us.

I don't think Robert insights about Vettel from 2006-2007 when he was 20 and almost no experience in F1 have too much relevance now, for example, in his first test in F1 for Williams in 2005 he was 3 seconds off Webber's pace, and we know how that turned out  

Edited by st99, 17 December 2013 - 13:44.

Kubica has been out of F1 for 3 years. Not exactly eons ago. The current F1 cars are still operating under the same formula as when he was driving, to a large extent. They WERE TEAMMATES, though they didn't RACE against one another. Was Vettel not employed by BMW Sauber? Don't know why you are trying so hard to discredit Kubica, who, like Vettel, was considered one of the finest talents to come into the sport? I think his skill as a driver allows him to see and understand things that we can't.

 

But in the end it's just his opinion. Why do some feel the need to savage it?

That's exactly my point. He's entitled to his opinion--like we all spectators are. I simply replied to a person who asked me why I value Webber's insight more.  

Edit: Don't get me wrong: Kubica is certainly closer to F1 world than you and me, but in the ways that matter--when it comes to giving an inside information on how drivers compare to each other and how hard(or not) they work for the wins--he's as much of a spectator as you and me, and his opinion can hardly hold the same value as Webber's, who actually knows a thing or two about what's going on at Red Bull and how much work it takes(or doesn't).

Edited by rasul, 17 December 2013 - 14:36.

Sometimes reading some topics on this forum I think that I am reading posts of children.... Kubica received question and he just answered what he thinks, and now everyone is discussing this like it would be the end of the world, because he have his own opinion diffrent to for example Vettel fanboys.

 

 

He just said that Vettel have easier way to winning in best car than Alonso in *** car. Nothing about how much ho works. Oh...

This.

Though I'd say the OP put fuel to the fire by quoting the one mention Vettel got - of course making Vettel fans jump out of their pants -  happens all the time on internet forums. Better to read the whole article.

I find it more interesting what he says about Massa. If he's correct we'll see a great deal of improvement from Massa next year and it will also be interesting to see how "The cannibal" deals with Kimi (who's probably unedible)

Edited by Suntrek, 17 December 2013 - 13:53.

Fair enough. If you also disregard everything Schumacher says about Vettel...

This is a pretty good point in general, as I think you have to be consistent in how you judge drivers. If we are going to dismiss a one driver being credited by a close friend, we should also dismiss the other. Or be consistent and accept the value of both compliments.

I am firmly in the middle of the Seb/Alonso debate, so comments from other drivers I do greatly value, as its no skin of my teeth.

Kubica is just giving a opinion, take it how you like. If you want scientific analysis, you are not going to get it, but freedom of speech based on your observations and perceptions will always be present. 

Do I agree with Kubica's perception? Not entirely, it is too much of a absolute view. Alonso does have it harder in my opinion than Seb, I think a lot of fans agree the RB has been the best overall package for a driver to have in the past 4-5 years. But, it is not as easy for Seb as the quote implies, the RB has been underdeveloped in at the start of 2012 and 2013, and in the latter Seb scraped for some meaningful points against faster cars.

Either way guys, I think we should be a little less defensive of other opinions, no matter who we support.

Edited by sennafan24, 17 December 2013 - 14:16.

I think Robert makes some really good points in the article, especially about Felipe, if it is the case that Fernando affected his performance I guess we can expect a return to form in the Williams next year when he will see himself as top dog, and if not then maybe there is something more to it from the accident.

 

...

Anyway it was a nice article to read and probably not one I would have come across without it being linked on here so thanks for posting.

I'm not sure RK really meant that Alonso was affecting Massa's performance so much as Alonso's relatively superior performance was making Massa's performance appear to be affected in comparison. 

Also, thanks to the OP for the link. It's a good piece about one respected driver's interesting observations. Some people here need to relax.

Oh lord. It is amazing how many widows it creates when someone gives an opinion praising Alonso.

Poor Kubica, his ear must be burning right now

 I'm not even sure Kubica praises Alonso. 

He just states Alonso have had a more difficult road to climb compared to Vettel - IE Vettel had a better car.

Not taking anything away from Vettel and his achievements but you've got to be pretty brain-damaged not to agree on that.

Asked what those factors might be, Kubica answered: "The bad luck to have a cannibal as a teammate."

Obviously Kubica has been looking in the photoshop thread!

Kubica is not at all referring to who is better. He talks about the role of confidence. Confidence plays a big role in any undertaking.

"...so competitive, then it gives you an unbelievable confidence"

 I'm not even sure Kubica praises Alonso. 

 

He just states Alonso have had a more difficult road to climb compared to Vettel - IE Vettel had a better car.

 

Not taking anything away from Vettel and his achievements but you've got to be pretty brain-damaged not to agree on that.

The problem is, its hard to come across as not slagging Seb if you say he has had the best car the past 4 years.

Not everyone who says that is outright out to get Seb or anything, sadly, a small minority of fans are, and a small portion of Vettel fans get defensive and take the bait. leading to a circular argument.

I think Kubica is praising Alonso, more than slagging Vettel, but others will not see it that way. Its easy to forget that Alonso has been questioned a lot lately.

Oh lord. It is amazing how many widows it creates when someone gives an opinion praising Alonso.

Poor Kubica, his ear must be burning right now

I don't think anyone has problem with praising a driver... I just don't like when it involes taking a dig a someone else. 

That's exactly my point. He's entitled to his opinion--like we all spectators are. I simply replied to a person who asked me why I value Webber's insight more.  

 

Edit: Don't get me wrong: Kubica is certainly closer to F1 world than you and me, but in the ways that matter--when it comes to giving an inside information on how drivers compare to each other and how hard(or not) they work for the wins--he's as much of a spectator as you and me, and his opinion can hardly hold the same value as Webber's, who actually knows a thing or two about what's going on at Red Bull and how much work it takes(or doesn't).

Serioursly...this is the most foolish comment I've read in a long long time.

Edited by doc83, 17 December 2013 - 17:48.

Serioursly...this is the most foolish comment I've read in a long long time.

"Serioursly"? If you really think that a racing driver who had nothing to do with F1 for 3 years knows the inside workings of the teams and knows how exactly various drivers compare to each other and how much hard work their wins require, that's  the most foolish thing I would read in a long time. He can only speculate. "Serioursly." 

Edited by rasul, 17 December 2013 - 17:57.

I don't think anyone has problem with praising a driver... I just don't like when it involes taking a dig a someone else.