Kimi's 2014 new race Engineer

Oh look. Another thread that's inevitably going to turn into a Kimi vs. Alonso dick measuring contest by the fans, in which both parties will claim to know a lot about who's going to beat who. Why doesn't Ferrari hire these forumers, srsly? They'd be winning championships by now. 

Don't worry they will be fine.

He has already Raikkonen as a favorite sportsman : https://www.facebook...o.spagnolo.9469

Edited by ArkZ, 18 December 2013 - 11:34.

Oh look. Another thread that's inevitably going to turn into a Kimi vs. Alonso dick measuring contest by the fans, in which both parties will claim to know a lot about who's going to beat who. Why doesn't Ferrari hire these forumers, srsly? They'd be winning championships by now. 

No point in measuring, everyone knows Alonso is packing an extra 6 tenths of inch. Etc...

Why should there be a solution, and why is he responsible for coming up with it?

It may be a simple resource constraint that all parties have to live with. It's totally OK to air the concern though.

then why put up a question where no solution is obvious..?

Edited by aray, 18 December 2013 - 12:39.

Well, yes. Happy to. I agree with it too. Just try to get em right the first time, so I don't have to take you to task again.

You can be a really funny person, did you knew that?

Don't worry they will be fine.

He has already Raikkonen as a favorite sportsman : https://www.facebook...o.spagnolo.9469

So he's a fan. Fellow fans should be happy then, shouldn't they?

I think that it's interesting that Kimi has a so-called newbie race engineer. It could be awful but Antonio+Kimi could as well be the best combo there is. I'm predicting something in between. Someone reminded earlier in this topic that most likely Kimi had some say in this decision; maybe he knows what he's capable engineering-wise and they might already be friends from Kimi's last Ferrari stint.

From Ferrari's point of view, this is a good decision. It's more than important that those who have been loyal and showed promise gets the promotions inside the team/corporation. It gives continuity and confidence to those who work there; hard work will be rewarded. Spagnolo with his +8 year experience in the team, knows the team and probably everyone who works there. That's a one hell of a advantage when compared to the situation where Slade would have joined Ferrari as an "outsider".  

Edited by Iranie, 18 December 2013 - 13:59.

And you covered the obvious standard Alonso-fan answer to the OP already in the fifth post. Well done ;) He was merely stating that it could be a disadvantage compared to the Alonso-Stella combo which has almost become the equivalent of the Räikkönen-Slade partnership over the last few years.

No doubt the new race engineer will be competent and won't be an excuse if Alonso gets the better of Kimi, however I wonder why he couldn't bring Slade along as he is obviously Räikkönen's prefered engineer (and no I don't imply favouritism towards Fernando).

Maybe Slade said "never in Red" and actually meant it 

Spagnolo, from the little i've seen/read seems like a pretty chilled out character, if he enjoys a beer thats a bonus, i predict a great working relationship, in fact, the only problem i forsee is the 2 RE's getting their headphones mixed up. 

Kimi was always going to have a new race engineer. A team like Ferrari is not going to hand over the race engineer position to an outsider like Slade. Stella obviously cannot be the race engineer for two drivers at the same time. So what else do you expect? This is always going to be the case.

Would it not be fair to assign Stella to Kimi?

Ha ha, he is already following an Italian Kimi fan-page.. He sure is a fan..

wonder why nobody has said this is unfair to alonso as they are taking away from his engineers to give one to kimi, these ferrari backstabbers

It shouldn't be an issue at all, but I'm sure we'll hear plenty about it if Kimi isn't on Alonso's pace. 

It shouldn't be an issue at all, but I'm sure we'll hear plenty about it if Kimi isn't on Alonso's pace. 

Yeah, like you are going to apologize if Kimi is on Alonso's pace.
 

Well he's Alonso's former chassis guy, so I'm sure he'll provide Kimi with Fernando's prior set up preferences if Kimi asks. How much use they'll be with the new formula... 

I'll be pretty damn happy if Kimi is on Alonso's pace, actually.  Not only would that mean Kimi is in good form, but it would also be great for Ferrari.

I don't have a personal stake in this like you, man. 

Race-engineer is just a guy who tells forward what Kimi is saying and answers to Kimi if he wants to know something. He won't make any decisions by himself.

I'm sure he's a good guy for the job. 

Edited by Miggeex, 18 December 2013 - 18:30.

Race-engineer is just a guy who tells forward what Kimi is saying and answers to Kimi if he wants to know something. He won't make any decisions by himself.

 

I'm sure he's a good guy for the job. 

I think a rookie race engineer is a good thing. Kimi is excentric and for Smedley or Stella or such could be very different from former drivers and thereby alienate and not fit in the way they worked before. A new hungry engineer wanting to prove himself will have a very diferent viewpoint and learn to work "kimi way". He knows what he's getting into and yet it is a big chance for him so he will adapt to Kimi in a very different way than somebody who already has the position and suddenly has to stand Kimi.

OK, we can have speculations about this new line-up, but anyway, we should wait until a couple of races and of course till some tough situation (rain race, safety car, etc.) to make any real comment, is/was it a good decision or not. Now it's storm in teaspoon to blame Ferrari to appoint a 'rookie' next to Kimi.

Sorry guys (and ladies), but be patient, we'll get the answers, but not as Xmas present on next week. 

Much ado about nothing, imo.

 

They could give Kimi a Tonka truck with bent axles and he'd still be competitive.

Without a doubt!

But Kimi is there to win the title so he needs to be more than just competitive, he needs to find a way past Alonso which will require a top performing engineer amongst other things.  The first few races will tell the tale.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 18 December 2013 - 22:03.

I think people are quite misled about what a race engineer does.  They are not simply the person who talks a driver through a race.  Their most important role comes from working with a driver to get the car setup throughout a weekend.  Its the race engineer who is largely the person in charge of making decisions about what to do with the car and from what I've read, they can also even have power in determining what sort of program to run during free practice. 

I see it the same way. We have heard different things about Kimis ability as a "developer", but my impression is that those who have an insight has the impression that Kimi knows exactly what he wants. A race engineer with no record will simply be forced to be very open minded since his career is most likely to be defined by this opportunity. If they fail, they'll fail together and if they win, they both win. There is no magic to a race engineer, he is not alone. He is just the tip of the iceberg.

I think a rookie race engineer is a good thing. Kimi is excentric and for Smedley or Stella or such could be very different from former drivers and thereby alienate and not fit in the way they worked before. A new hungry engineer wanting to prove himself will have a very diferent viewpoint and learn to work "kimi way". He knows what he's getting into and yet it is a big chance for him so he will adapt to Kimi in a very different way than somebody who already has the position and suddenly has to stand Kimi.

There are some quotes around by Stella on Kimi.

There are some quotes around by Stella on Kimi.

There are some quotes around by Stella on Alonso too...

Antonio Spagnolo was part of Kimi´s engineering group on his last Ferrari visit (source Turun Sanomat), so they know each other very well, Domenicali made the decision after discussing with Kimi and Spagnolo.

This is hilarious. All of a sudden Ferrari know what they're doing. But in the other thread Ferrari is "stabbing in the dark" and has a terrible engineering team. 

 

It's a very relevant question though, since it turned out Chris Dyer was so bad that he had to be removed entirely from the race team and given a desk job. 

 

I agree though. I don't expect this to be a major issue, and I think it is incumbent upon Kimi to communicate his wishes clearly and let his engineer help him do his thing. 

I don't think anyone has argued that Ferrari's track team left anything to be desired recently.
 

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 19 December 2013 - 07:17.

I don't think anyone has argued that Ferrari's track team left anything to be desired recently.
 

Its a plot, Räikkönen's race engineer is, well sort of, Spanish.

Antonio Spagnolo was part of Kimi´s engineering group on his last Ferrari visit (source Turun Sanomat), so they know each other very well, Domenicali made the decision after discussing with Kimi and Spagnolo.

http://www.ts.fi/moo...lpainsinooriksi

Actualy the article says that Stella was a part of Kimi's engineering group, not Spagnolo.

In short:

As Stella continues as Alonsos RE Kimi has been named a new one, Spagnolo. Spagnolo came from Minardi to Ferrari in 2005 and worked in Alonsos group of engineers. Kimi visited Maranello on Tuesday and met with Domenicali and the engineers so he also had a chance to get acquainted with Spagnolo (seems they didn't know from before).

Raikkonen won the WDC with RE Dyer, Stella was at that point his dataengineer and moved to be Kimis RE for the next year as Dyer was promoted.

Raikkonens recovery from the operation has gone normaly

I don't think anyone has argued that Ferrari's track team left anything to be desired recently.
 

Didn't Alonso call them "geniuses" at one point? Assuming you agree he was sarcastic, it's clear that one of the Ferrari drivers himself thinks there's some room for improvement in certain situations. There are other examples, but I'm assuming this one suffices since it carries more weight than just "anyone". 

I personally think they're very good. But you can't blame others for being worried. My point is that the question and original poster should not have been dismissed as easily as it was. 

Edited by boldhakka, 19 December 2013 - 08:17.

yes the site says so but magazine tells differently and more accurate article about the matter

http://www.ts.fi/moo...lpainsinooriksi

 

Actualy the article says that Stella was a part of Kimi's engineering group, not Spagnolo.

 

In short:

 

As Stella continues as Alonsos RE Kimi has been named a new one, Spagnolo. Spagnolo came from Minardi to Ferrari in 2005 and worked in Alonsos group of engineers. Kimi visited Maranello on Tuesday and met with Domenicali and the engineers so he also had a chance to get acquainted with Spagnolo (seems they didn't know from before).

 

Raikkonen won the WDC with RE Dyer, Stella was at that point his dataengineer and moved to be Kimis RE for the next year as Dyer was promoted.

 

Raikkonens recovery from the operation has gone normaly

yes the site says so but magazine tells differently and more accurate article about the matter

Could you please write some of the mainpoints as I don't have the paper?

Edited by jedioriginal, 19 December 2013 - 11:00.

I don't think there would be too much cause for concern. Considering major factors in a race engineer's performance:

1 - Engineering competance. I have no doubt that he'll be capable in this regard or Ferrari wouldn't have promoted him to the job. I'm sure he'll have a full understanding of how changes to the car's settings will affect performance.

2 - Communication. Here's where there's more room for doubt. He'll only be able to do his job effectively if he and Kimi can work together well. Yet at the same time he and Kimi are both well known within Ferrari and I'm sure his ability to create the right relationship with Kimi has been taken considered.

3 - Experience. He's one situation where he might be at an advantage with the new regulations. All drivers and their REs this year are going to be in the same boat, relying more on their knowledge and ability for figure out solutions to problems than knowing what worked in the past few years. He also has no baggage from working as an RE for other drivers either.

It will obviously take a few races for the relationship to fully gel, but I don't think there's any real reason to worry. But good to know that the excuses are ready ;)

Didn't Alonso call them "geniuses" at one point? Assuming you agree he was sarcastic, it's clear that one of the Ferrari drivers himself thinks there's some room for improvement in certain situations. There are other examples, but I'm assuming this one suffices since it carries more weight than just "anyone".

It carries as much weight and has the same credibility to draw a general conclusion from as Hamilton accusing his team of not giving him enough info frequently, or Vettel shouting how the eff Webber could be in front of him, or Raikönnen being rude on the radio.

You either conclude that all those race teams aren't worth much, or you take such driver outbursts for what they are, i.e. well and truly insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Isn't it obvious? Assign Stella to Kimi and let Alonso run without a race engineer. Tweak his ear a bit just to be sure...

Didn't Alonso call them "geniuses" at one point? Assuming you agree he was sarcastic, it's clear that one of the Ferrari drivers himself thinks there's some room for improvement in certain situations. There are other examples, but I'm assuming this one suffices since it carries more weight than just "anyone". 

 

I personally think they're very good. But you can't blame others for being worried. My point is that the question and original poster should not have been dismissed as easily as it was. 

I think it was childish when some forum members wetted themselves over a grown-up professional making a sarcastic remark toward his team mates in a high-pressure situation. Anyone who actually has a work history has seen much, much worse. I'm sure Alonso was overall very happy with his track team, but am too lazy to search for quotes for something that is very obvious anyway.

Edit: And yeah, I am sure Alonso thinks that "there's some room for improvement in certain situations" because that is always true. But it has nothing to to with what I replied to, which was 'in the other thread Ferrari is "stabbing in the dark" and has a terrible engineering team.'

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 19 December 2013 - 17:18.

Kimi has been driving F1 cars for so long that his driving style is hardly a secret anymore.

.

Edit: And yeah, I am sure Alonso thinks that "there's some room for improvement in certain situations" because that is always true. But it has nothing to to with what I replied to, which was 'in the other thread Ferrari is "stabbing in the dark" and has a terrible engineering team.'

Ah ok.

I think the premise that there's a tight divide between the track operations team and the car design engineering team, is questionable. I'm sure there's some overlap. As evidenced by the name "chassis engineer". I'm sure he would have overlapping roles between helping the design team develop the car as well as in setup and race weekend work.

So if the argument in the other thread is that Ferrari's design and development engineers are poor (I'm assuming you've seen these post and I don't have to link them), then it seems natural to question the competence of someone who might have had overlapping responsibilities. And yes, the phrase "stabbing in the dark" was used in the car thread to describe Ferrari's engineering efforts. The author has posted in this thread too.

A race engineer plays a significant role in helping a driver get the most out of any updates that end up on the car. Lately in the car thread it's even been suggested that the on-track team (driver + race engineer etc.) may be responsible for not getting the most out of the updates (or not giving the appropriate feedback on the updates). It's been considered credible by the likes of CrucialXtreme etc. So again some suggestions from the car thread that the race engineering team may have deficiencies. 

I think you'll agree that Kimi is, shall we say, "special needs" in this regard (2008, LWB). So even the possibility that a rookie Ferrari race engineer - who works side-by-side with the engineers who "stab in the dark" in the design team, and potentially as part of a team of race engineers who are unable to get the most out of updates, both as suggested in the car thread - will pair up with this special-needs driver is cause for concern. 

Edited by boldhakka, 20 December 2013 - 04:00.

It carries as much weight and has the same credibility to draw a general conclusion from as Hamilton accusing his team of not giving him enough info frequently, or Vettel shouting how the eff Webber could be in front of him, or Raikönnen being rude on the radio.

 

You either conclude that all those race teams aren't worth much, or you take such driver outbursts for what they are, i.e. well and truly insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Really? Credibility and weight are informed and conditioned by past comments by the respective parties. Do you really want to equate Alonso and Hamilton in this regard? Be my guest. 

Edited by boldhakka, 20 December 2013 - 05:09.

I think the premise that there's a tight divide between the track operations team and the car design engineering team, is questionable. I'm sure there's some overlap. As evidenced by the name "chassis engineer". I'm sure he would have overlapping roles between helping the design team develop the car as well as in setup and race weekend work.

So if the argument in the other thread is that Ferrari's design and development engineers are poor (I'm assuming you've seen these post and I don't have to link them), then it seems natural to question the competence of someone who might have had overlapping responsibilities. And yes, the phrase "stabbing in the dark" was used in the car thread to describe Ferrari's engineering efforts. The author has posted in this thread too.

 

A race engineer plays a significant role in helping a driver get the most out of any updates that end up on the car. Lately in the car thread it's even been suggested that the on-track team (driver + race engineer etc.) may be responsible for not getting the most out of the updates (or not giving the appropriate feedback on the updates). It's been considered credible by the likes of CrucialXtreme etc. So again some suggestions from the car thread that the race engineering team may have deficiencies.

 

I think you'll agree that Kimi is, shall we say, "special needs" in this regard (2008, LWB). So even the possibility that a rookie Ferrari race engineer - who works side-by-side with the engineers who "stab in the dark" in the design team, and potentially as part of a team of race engineers who are unable to get the most out of updates, both as suggested in the car thread - will pair up with this special-needs driver is cause for concern. 

Well, if you want to see it from that angle,  it's all a big old "cause for concern", the whole process of "special needs" Raikönnen being employed by a team in which, according to you, "stabbing in the dark" spreads like a virus. Despite your strategic use of 'rookie' for a man who worked in Ferraris trackside engineering team for almost a decade and your adventurous guesses of overlapping responsibilities, your concerns would apply to Andrea Stella just the same, wouldn't they? So there really is no solution, all doom and gloom?

And all that before a wheel has turned and from a poster who, in another context, propagates that Ferrari (and other teams) aren't really that bad compared to Red Bull and they'll all catch up and succeed in time:

Ferrari and other teams will work hard, hire the right people, apply technical ingenuity, innovate, interpret the rules of the formula well, stay focussed and bring home the results.

So what is it now?

Edited by as65p, 20 December 2013 - 07:02.

Ah ok.

I think the premise that there's a tight divide between the track operations team and the car design engineering team, is questionable. I'm sure there's some overlap. As evidenced by the name "chassis engineer". I'm sure he would have overlapping roles between helping the design team develop the car as well as in setup and race weekend work.

So if the argument in the other thread is that Ferrari's design and development engineers are poor (I'm assuming you've seen these post and I don't have to link them), then it seems natural to question the competence of someone who might have had overlapping responsibilities. And yes, the phrase "stabbing in the dark" was used in the car thread to describe Ferrari's engineering efforts. The author has posted in this thread too.

 

A race engineer plays a significant role in helping a driver get the most out of any updates that end up on the car. Lately in the car thread it's even been suggested that the on-track team (driver + race engineer etc.) may be responsible for not getting the most out of the updates (or not giving the appropriate feedback on the updates). It's been considered credible by the likes of CrucialXtreme etc. So again some suggestions from the car thread that the race engineering team may have deficiencies. 

 

I think you'll agree that Kimi is, shall we say, "special needs" in this regard (2008, LWB). So even the possibility that a rookie Ferrari race engineer - who works side-by-side with the engineers who "stab in the dark" in the design team, and potentially as part of a team of race engineers who are unable to get the most out of updates, both as suggested in the car thread - will pair up with this special-needs driver is cause for concern. 

Sure, I've seen the posts claiming incompetent engineering and so forth. I don't doubt that somebody used the words "stabbing in the dark" either, But of course the suggestion of the track team being incompetent wrt to evaluating upgrades came from one person, Anderson, and did not not gain much traction in the other thread.

Personally I am of the opinion, and I argued this frequently in various Ferrari threads - that the car development trouble is down to mistakes of the past wrt to switching, in time, to the new methods required by test limitations. I believe that there are sufficiently different requirements between development and on-track engineering that it's perfectly possible to have problems in development and still be great when working with what you have at the track. And at least wrt to strategy, pit stops, etc. Ferrari has done a great job. So yeah, it can IMHO be logically consistent to be of the opinion that Ferrari's current team knows what they are doing, but nevertheless think they have deficiencies; that goes for development and even more so when comparing trackside aspects to factory aspects.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 20 December 2013 - 07:12.

So yeah, it can IMHO be logically consistent to be of the opinion that Ferrari's current team knows what they are doing, but nevertheless think they have deficiencies; that goes for development and even more so when comparing trackside aspects to factory aspects.

Indeed it is logically consistent, and I even agree with it/you. My point was that there have been substantial arguments and what appears to be evidence to the contrary in that very thread (we possibly disagree on the extent of it), which can legitimately concern those who follow the new driver who will be joining the team. I.e. it is logically consistent to connect the dots in the other direction too. 

Just to be clear: I'm not one of those who is concerned. 

Edited by boldhakka, 20 December 2013 - 07:38.

Really?

Yep.

Credibility and weight are informed and conditioned by past comments by the respective parties. Do you really want to equate Alonso and Hamilton in this regard? Be my guest.

 

Thanks. Yes, I want to equate all drivers when it comes to weighing up what they might say over the radio in the heat of a race or qualifying session.

your concerns would apply to Andrea Stella just the same, wouldn't they? 

 

Possibly. Alonso's last race engineer at Ferrari was replaced. I hear Alonso has been overdriving the car (again, from the car thread). And he's been praised by Ferrari for being particularly good at "reading a race". So it's quite possible that he's been doing the heavy lifting with respect to setup and driving around the deficiencies of the race engineering team. When in the rare occasion it's out of his hand, we have seen him sarcastically call them "geniuses". 

So a case can be made that it applies to Stella, too. I'm not making it, but I can see how one could make it. Yes.

You tell me. You were the one talking about the "Roman era of dominance" by that other team. I remain very positive about Ferrari's engineering capabilities. 

Edited by boldhakka, 20 December 2013 - 07:37.

 

Possibly. Alonso's last race engineer at Ferrari was replaced. I hear Alonso has been overdriving the car (again, from the car thread). And he's been praised by Ferrari for being particularly good at "reading a race". So it's quite possible that he's been doing the heavy lifting with respect to setup and driving around the deficiencies of the race engineering team. When in the rare occasion it's out of his hand, we have seen him sarcastically call them "geniuses". 

 

So a case can be made that it applies to Stella, too. I'm not making it, but I can see how one could make it. Yes.

 

 

You tell me. You were the one talking about the "Roman era of dominance" by that other team. I remain very positive about Ferrari's engineering capabilities. 

 

My position remains the same. Ferrari has good engineers, and they're hiring even better ones. Kimi has little to be concerned about, and most of the responsibility falls on him to get the setup and related matters right.

 

I'm just pointing out that there is enough evidence and arguments (made by you and others) made in other threads to support some followers of the new driver being concerned by the choice of race engineers. 

 

I'm not concerned at all though. 

 

Hm, that's a funny concept, not sharing opinions but nevertheless arguing them.  Member of any debating clubs, by any chance?

I remain very positive about Ferrari's engineering capabilities.

 

That must be a relief for those whose freedom to be concerned you defend so selflessly.

Indeed it is logically consistent, and I even agree with it/you. My point was that there have been substantial arguments and what appears to be evidence to the contrary in that very thread (we possibly disagree on the extent of it), which can legitimately concern those who follow the new driver who will be joining the team. 

 

Just to be clear: I'm not one of those who is concerned. 

All good then

Hm, that's a funny concept, not sharing opinions but nevertheless arguing them.  Member of any debating clubs, by any chance?

 

 

That must be a relief for those whose freedom to be concerned you defend so selflessly.

It annoyed me that you made a broad sweeping negative generalization in the car thread about Ferrari's engineering capabilities, but then admitted to making fun of and mocking the original poster of this thread for being "scared" and "not smart" to worry that Kimi's engineer may not be good. My hypocrisy detector went off. He had every reason to connect the dots in the manner that he did. You may disagree with that but there are better ways to get it across. 

Edited by boldhakka, 20 December 2013 - 08:01.

It annoyed me that you made a broad sweeping negative generalization in the car thread about Ferrari's engineering capabilities, but then admitted to making fun of and mocking the original poster of this thread for being "scared" and "not smart" to worry that Kimi's engineer may not be good. My hypocrisy detector went off. He had every reason to connect the dots in the manner that he did. You may disagree with that but there are better ways to get it across. 

When did it get his last service? Also it might help if you reverse the detection direction once in a while, to calibrate it.

Besides, I have pretty consistently held Ferraris trackside team in very high regard and the engineering team in distinctivly lesser, and always said so. Not really a unique view on the current state of affairs in Maranello, mind you. Given that, I still don't see any discrepancies in highlighting Red Bulls engineering superiority and disregarding premature concerns about a choice of race engineer for a driver by Ferrari.

Edited by as65p, 20 December 2013 - 08:13.