Massa suspects Alonso knew about crashgate..

Is this myth really still alive?

What myth? Do you have evidence to prove one or the other way? Can you even produce a reasoning why Glock would let Hamilton bye?
 

What myth? Do you have evidence to prove one or the other way? Can you even produce a reasoning why Glock would let Hamilton bye?
 

Mother of god. 5 years on the myth really is still alive. 

I can only assume you merely watched the highlights of that race, and missed how Glock indicated that he wanted to help his old GP2 buddy. He didn't lose control.

There was a discussion prompted by Luca's comments before the Christmas where Alonso was lifted among the greats. It is funny how short lived the minds of men are.

This whole Singapore 2008 episode combined with all events in 2007 are reasons why I refuse to elevate Alonso to be one of the greats regardless of how many Championships he brings to Ferrari (so far none). Let's remember that the verdict of the World Motorsport Coucil was announced just few days prior to Singapore 2009 GP and yet Alonso insisted the decision was just an "interpretation" of the events and it did in his view not dismay his victory at all. Also what he did in 2009 Singapore GP was to dedicate his 3rd place podium to Briatore regardless of that Flavio had been just few days ago been found to be the main contributor of the arguably biggest scam in the F1 history.

This.  How Alonso justifies vindicating Flavio, to this day, I do not know.  The man and his cohorts endangered lives.  Remorse is due from all over the events.

Alonso counts the win as valid because he did not know about it. So in his mind the win was earned.

People are outraged at a crash changing the outcome of a race. Yet Senna purposly caused a crash to change the outcome of a championship. Somehow that was proper, heroic and ethical racing.

I think this is just an excuse for people who hate Alonso by sinking their nails in the sewer with hopes they can find something to throw at him.

Not even the FIA can change the results of 2008 Singapore now.

Instead of crying about Singapore, Massa should remember Monza 2006, where he got Alonso a bullshit penalty. Karma can be a beotch sometimes.

I've very rarely seen Senna's Suzuka 1990 actions described as "proper heroic and ethical". Would you please back up that statement? 

"The other guy did it too and got away with it," is not a defence.

Anyway, my position is that the Renault team should have been disqualified from the event, and Alonso, even if he was totally innocent, should have lost the win because he's part of the team. It's not about hating Alonso.

Edited by PayasYouRace, 11 January 2014 - 09:29.

Alonso - the master of knowing and controlling what's happening during a race - did not question why he was brought in so obviously too early? (He still had several seconds to Nagajima who he was catching ~0.5 s per lap.) That seems unlikely unless he knew what was going on. Possible, if he was somehow distracted. But I suppose we'll never know for sure unless Flavio or Pat say something. Unsubstantiated allegations are pointless though.

Massa should really really stop crying over this... He is starting to sould like Rubens Barrichello... Forget about it man!

Massa, living proof that from sour grapes comes a lot of whine.

Mother of god. 5 years on the myth really is still alive. 

 

I can only assume you merely watched the highlights of that race, and missed how Glock indicated that he wanted to help his old GP2 buddy. He didn't lose control.

Well, your assumptions aren't worth sh*t. I've watched every race since 1992.
 

Massa, living proof that from sour grapes comes a lot of whine.

Sour grapes? Are you saying Massa didn't want to win the 2008 WDC? I'm confused here of waht you are talking about.

Sour grapes? Are you saying Massa didn't want to win the 2008 WDC? I'm confused here of waht you are talking about.

Put the bottle down and go to bed.

Well, your assumptions aren't worth sh*t. I've watched every race since 1992.
 

Yet you missed how Glock was on dry tires and Hamilton on intermediate tires?

Edited by Lights, 11 January 2014 - 10:32.

Massa should really really stop crying over this... He is starting to sould like Rubens Barrichello... Forget about it man!

Maybe he hopes to whine his way to a lucrative pundit contract? Seems to work ...

And, since he will work with Symonds now, he's been asked if he would discuss crashgate with him: What should he actually answer?

I think the 'stuff people will always argue about without changing anyone's minds' quota is more than met in this thread by Massa repeating how he reckons Alonso knew about Crashgate.

Please don't use it to start arguing all over again about Glock as well. Discuss it over PM with each other if needs be, thanks guys.

The FIA should have disqualified Alonso from the race because the team specifically cheated to enable the win for him.   However, matriculating up a spot would not have helped Massa.

 

I understand why Massa is upset, the scheme was purposefully done by Renault, specifically on Alonso's behalf and if it had not taken place, it is very likely he would have come in the top 5 and been awarded enough points to win the title.  He pinpoints Alonso, perhaps because he feels he is not admitting his guilt and took the spoils besides - we'll never know - but I would reckon that Massa is angry at the entire gang of cheaters.  They did mess him up.

That's a nice theory. Unfortunately there are no facts to support it. I'm sure that wouldn't concern you though.

Edited by f1RacingForever, 11 January 2014 - 13:30.

Alonso - the master of knowing and controlling what's happening during a race - did not question why he was brought in so obviously too early? (He still had several seconds to Nagajima who he was catching ~0.5 s per lap.) That seems unlikely unless he knew what was going on. Possible, if he was somehow distracted. But I suppose we'll never know for sure unless Flavio or Pat say something. Unsubstantiated allegations are pointless though.

With this in mind, I think the only situation in which he would not know of it, is that if he *chose* not to, or the crooks from above *chose* to deliberately withhold it from him so that he can't know and therefore, cannot lie about it. Plausible deniability.

Why is Massa still bitter about the whole crashgate thing when it was his teams stupid traffic lights system that dropped him down into last place...

Whether Alonso knew or not is irrelevant to the poor outcome of Massa's race.

This.  How Alonso justifies vindicating Flavio, to this day, I do not know.  The man and his cohorts endangered lives.  Remorse is due from all over the events.

Most drivers have iffy moments, Schumi, Senna, et. al. but can we ultimately prove that Senna "drove into Prost" at Suzuka 1990 for example? This case is a bit more clear cut IMO. Flavio did a dirty deed, was convicted, the race was deemed a farce and yet FA still sees this win as worthy and he still vindicates Flavio? If he had more integrity he'd have, at least, not defended his victory that time and broken ties with Flavio.  

Why is Massa still bitter about the whole crashgate thing when it was his teams stupid traffic lights system that dropped him down into last place...

 

 

Whether Alonso knew or not is irrelevant to the poor outcome of Massa's race.

His ego is shattered. Now he trying to save face. I remember that race. Ferrari really dropped the ball. Massa could have been WDC had he been less unfortunate.

Maybe he hopes to whine his way to a lucrative pundit contract? Seems to work ...

And, since he will work with Symonds now, he's been asked if he would discuss crashgate with him: What should he actually answer?

I don`t know. Maybe "I screwed up that title myself and I will totally forget about that because I'm the one to blame." I know, he will never leave that behind. Just because of his "loser" pesonality. There's thousands of people to discuss that. Massa should shut up, IMO.

I don`t know. Maybe "I screwed up that title myself and I will totally forget about that because I'm the one to blame." I know, he will never leave that behind. Just because of his "loser" pesonality. There's thousands of people to discuss that. Massa should shut up, IMO.

Theoretically if someone starts a fire in a house purposely and a person or many within said house cannot escape without incident.... Tough luck eh ?  Massa knows Alonso...Posters on here do not....   Therefore i feel his opinion holds a little weight. I'm sure he is by far not the only one in the paddock with the same opinion of involvement.

To me the problem is that he spent the last years with Alonso and probably NEVER had the guts to ask in a definitive way. Now that he is away, tries to defrost the story with no new evidence whatsoever. That's the "skew" side of his statement that I don't like. It would be better if he had said something like "Alonso told me he didn't have anything to do with that, but I don't believe it", not "I suppose that Alonso knew all about it." That is useless.

Edited by dutra, 11 January 2014 - 17:03.

This.  How Alonso justifies vindicating Flavio, to this day, I do not know.  The man and his cohorts endangered lives.  Remorse is due from all over the events.

There was a discussion prompted by Luca's comments before the Christmas where Alonso was lifted among the greats. It is funny how short lived the minds of men are.

This whole Singapore 2008 episode combined with all events in 2007 are reasons why I refuse to elevate Alonso to be one of the greats regardless of how many Championships he brings to Ferrari (so far none). Let's remember that the verdict of the World Motorsport Coucil was announced just few days prior to Singapore 2009 GP and yet Alonso insisted the decision was just an "interpretation" of the events and it did in his view not dismay his victory at all. Also what he did in 2009 Singapore GP was to dedicate his 3rd place podium to Briatore regardless of that Flavio had been just few days ago been found to be the main contributor of the arguably biggest scam in the F1 history.

In modern Formula one bar Kimi, it's hard to find a champion that has not done the dirty. If you went by this logic the likes of Schumacher, Hamilton , Vettel, Hakkinen, Prost, Senna, and a few more would never have the chance of being classed as a great.

Money talks.

Also I think the reason Massa is bringing this up again, is to put Alonso under-fire (and under-pressure from the media) for the upcoming F1 season.

Most drivers have iffy moments, Schumi, Senna, et. al. but can we ultimately prove that Senna "drove into Prost" at Suzuka 1990 for example? This case is a bit more clear cut IMO. Flavio did a dirty deed, was convicted, the race was deemed a farce and yet FA still sees this win as worthy and he still vindicates Flavio? If he had more integrity he'd have, at least, not defended his victory that time and broken ties with Flavio.  

Yes, Senna admitted it a year later. Maybe, that he did not "drive into Prost" but that he knew what he was doing and what the result would be.

Flavio actually disputes his guilt, I will not bother trying to say it is debatable though, because in his case unlike Alonso, there is evidence to suggest otherwise.

In modern Formula one bar Kimi, it's hard to find a champion that has not done the dirty. If you went by this logic the likes of Schumacher, Hamilton , Vettel, Hakkinen, Prost, Senna, and a few more would never have the chance of being classed as a great.

Edited by Jvr, 11 January 2014 - 20:49.

You have raised a good point, I like Alonso but the guy was mentally unstable around 2006-2010. Not to say he was always at fault when he was pushed over the edge, but events like threatening to lie on the track at Monaco 2006 if Schumi was not punished were mildly disturbing to say the least/

(...)

This seems an odd thing to say for "sennafan24".

 

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 11 January 2014 - 21:39.

This seems an odd thing to say for "sennafan24".

 

I will presume you think that is a double standard as a Senna fan, given his actions at Japan 1990? If so that's cool, I have never tried to justify what he did there, just because you are a fan of a driver, does not mean you have to defend or support every action they partake in. 

Care to remind me what dirty tricks has Vettel done outside of disobeying "Multi 12" team order early last year? What about Häkkinen? What dirty did he do? Also I cannot recall anything dirty Hamilton would have done on purpose. Yes he has been reckless and had his brainfarts such as crashing Bottas in Austin but something really sinister?

Examples please?

Edit: I forgot Hamilton's Liegate Melbourne/Sepang 2009

Well his first two wins are not really a thing to be proud of really.

I will presume you think that is a double standard as a Senna fan, given his actions at Japan 1990? If so that's cool, I have never tried to justify what he did there, just because you are a fan of a driver, does not mean you have to defend or support every action they partake in. 

Japan 90 was not the only time Senna appeared unhinged, and I think Alonso's 2006 "threat" was actually quite mild, considering the events. It just seems to me to be odd, for a Senna fan, to bring that one up as a sign for Alonso being unstable.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 11 January 2014 - 22:35.

so basically massa is expecting  symonds to admit to him that he lied to the whole world when he said that alonso didnt know, really sure symonds cant wait to get on the wrong side of the fia again, massa is either dumb or naive

Japan 90 was not the only time Senna appeared unhinged, and I think Alonso's 2006 "threat" was actually quite mild, considering the events. It just seems to me to be odd, for a Senna fan, to bring that one up as a sign for Alonso being unstable.

Who is to say, that I do not think Senna was unhinged at other times? Japan 1990 is one that stands out, but yes when he punched Irvine would be another example. You seem to assume just because I am a Senna fan, I would be line in the sand and defend everything he ever did. I know some posters are like that, but you should not assume that everyone is. I love Lewis Hamilton but ask me about 2011, and I am hardly going to say its was a crowning year because he is a bloody great chap!

Sometimes you have to forget who a poster is a fan off, there were times that Schumi was unhinged as well, same with Prost to a lesser degree. F1 is a sport that brings out the best and worst in people. Alonso is a driver who I admire as well, and I do like him and have defended him to a extent in this thread, but to state he would lie on the track in this P.R ridden age is madness. As was when he tried to blackmail Ron Dennis (for the record guys, I do not fully take McLaren's side in the Alonso vs McLaren debate, before anyone chirps in)

To say it is "odd" for me to note these events based on which driver I support, is a bit silly in my opinion.

Edited by sennafan24, 11 January 2014 - 23:03.

Whether Alonso did or did not know about it, what does it matter now? It was more than five years ago. Massa still comes across as very bitter, and it's no coincidence that he drags this up again now that he has left Ferrari. It happened, it's over, it's time to move on.

he's bitter and he should be about it. if alonso knew and went ahead with this he should have received some sort of penalty for cheating.

Who is to say, that I do not think Senna was unhinged at other times? Japan 1990 is one that stands out, but yes when he punched Irvine would be another example. You seem to assume just because I am a Senna fan, I would be line in the sand and defend everything he ever did. I know some posters are like that, but you should not assume that everyone is. I love Lewis Hamilton but ask me about 2011, and I am hardly going to say its was a crowning year because he is a bloody great chap!

 

Sometimes you have to forget who a poster is a fan off, there were times that Schumi was unhinged as well, same with Prost to a lesser degree. F1 is a sport that brings out the best and worst in people. Alonso is a driver who I admire as well, and I do like him and have defended him to a extent in this thread, but to state he would lie on the track in this P.R ridden age is madness. As was when he tried to blackmail Ron Dennis (for the record guys, I do not fully take McLaren's side in the Alonso vs McLaren debate, before anyone chirps in)

 

To say it is "odd" for me to note these events based on which driver I support, is a bit silly in my opinion.

I agree with all of that, but the argument is a bit beside my point, which - maybe badly made - was that the Monaco 2006 statement by Alonso is IMHO by far not on par with things other drivers said or did (which, as a Senna fan, you are aware of), and therefore it's a strange example to bring up to argue his being unstable.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 11 January 2014 - 23:42.

how bored we are without races that we need to discuss 5 years back in time, and argue on hearsays and beliefs.

 and therefore it's a strange example to bring up to argue his being unstable.

This is where we disagree, I am surprised it gets forgotten so much. It showed the extremes Alonso was willing to go if Schumi was not punished. If Lewis, Seb or even Alonso said this in 2014, the media would have a field day. To threaten to physically lie in front of a F1 car in protest is not something that sounds like a stable man. 

Alonso has calmed down in the past few years, but before 2010 time, I would not want to get on the wrong side of him. I think it shows he might be capable of going to extremes (like cheating) to win, but I do not have any evidence of his involvement, and neither do others. I like Alonso, I respect how he speaks his mind, but the man was capable of doing some unstable things in his younger days.

Lol, on the wrong side of Alonso! That's like getting on the wrong side of a crying 3 year old baby, who gives a damn? Freaking baby. I never had any doubts that Alonso knew about all this all along. I wouldn't go as far as suggest that he was the one who had the idea, but I wouldn't be surprised. He held up Hamilton on purpose in Hungary 2007... He cried every time Massa got in front of him... He's just a pathetic weak man that has had his whole life people bending backwards for him, that's pitiful! He may be a brilliant driver, but he's a hateful human being.

Gloves off!

 

http://www.f1fanatic...crashgate-plan/

 

Interesting that Felipe's commented and that he's going to speak to Pat Symonds about it, I would have thought it would have been swept under the carpet by now. I guess it did potentially lose him a WC though..

Man he sure is weak in the mind.  He is convinced that Alonso is responsible for him losing the WDC, instead of his **** driving, mistakes and bad luck he had in 2008.

Edited by fabr68, 12 January 2014 - 00:51.

 He's just a pathetic weak man that has had his whole life people bending backwards for him, that's pitiful! He may be a brilliant driver, but he's a hateful human being.

That is a bit strong, like I said F1 brings out the best and worst in people. I consider Senna, Prost and Schumi all nice blokes from what I have heard away from the track, but they all did deviant things on it. I have no idea if Alonso is a nice guy away from F1, as you do not hear much to be honest. "whole life people bending over backwards" is also incorrect, he is meant to have come from very a quite poor family, I doubt his family were in a position to give him the world and spoil him.

The reason I say "wrong side" is because the man was not afraid to drag people in the mud, even if it meant he looked bad in the process. He has been happy in the past to openly slate his team, other teams, and drivers to get his point across, even if his own reputation took a hit, so did others.

My case in point pretty much is that he seems to do whatever it takes to win, so I think he would have it in him to be on something like this.

Edited by sennafan24, 12 January 2014 - 00:55.

Well his first two wins are not really a thing to be proud of really.

Who are you talking about here?

Who are you talking about here?

At a guess I think he means Mika Hakkinen who needed DC to pull over twice to give him his first two wins. (Ok he could have got wins before that without the merc engine going bang but this is what happened in the end). I suspect if Alonso or Lewis did this it would be another thing used to bash them constantly on here.

 I suspect if Alonso or Lewis did this it would be another thing used to bash them constantly on here.

Yeah! And Jesus Christ has made wine without having a licence, that could help to "justify" Spygate, Crashgate and Liegate... 

Lol, on the wrong side of Alonso! That's like getting on the wrong side of a crying 3 year old baby, who gives a damn? Freaking baby. I never had any doubts that Alonso knew about all this all along. I wouldn't go as far as suggest that he was the one who had the idea, but I wouldn't be surprised. He held up Hamilton on purpose in Hungary 2007... He cried every time Massa got in front of him... He's just a pathetic weak man that has had his whole life people bending backwards for him, that's pitiful! He may be a brilliant driver, but he's a hateful human being.

First of all:

At least in Interlagos 2013, when he saw Massa in his mirrors, Alonso was even looking forward to letting him by in Massa's last race for Ferrari. Did this overhyped and overestimated RedBull driver ever considered that in his teammate's last f1 race?

And second: I don't know whose fan you are, but fans of drivers who never had to face such genius-teammates or at least super-strong-teammate competition as Alonso did with Hamilton (and vice versa) or Senna did with Prost (and vice versa) (and Vettel or Schumacher didn't have to), have to stop complaining about drivers' behaviour when having those teammate calibers. The probability is very high that Vettel or Schumacher would have behaved very very similarly (i.e. bitchy), if they drove against Senna or Alonso or Hamilton or Prost as teammates for one or two seasons, if not worse (when you have in mind how Vettel already behaved in Sepang 2013 against only someone like Webber).

What part of "Fred didn't know before the race" do you not understand, there's nothing to backfire on Fred, he didn't know and certainly wasn't going to cheat for a few points in a lost season - flav and the boys wanted a victory to fred in order to keep him happy within the team, when fred figured it out afterwards so what... what was he supposed to do.

 

That's rubbish about "Renault not backing red bull" and "what if Singapore didn't happen" - red bull won with Newey's car despite the fact it had a Renault engine, they won because it was Newey's car.

I can see the point of not telling the driver. It might have distracted his racing or podium celebrations. But it is also possible the idea came from Alonso. In that case it wouldn't distract him, if he was fully behind the strategy. He is also able to talk half truths with a serious face. And his comments of it being a deserved victory... Quilty.

Edited by Mauseri, 12 January 2014 - 11:25.

Yeah! And Jesus Christ has made wine without having a licence, that could help to "justify" Spygate, Crashgate and Liegate... 

He was good in the wet though.

He was good in the wet though.

And had a very successful comeback too.

That is a bit strong.

It is a bit, I'm sorry. It was a bit late, I didn't measure my words

 

I don't know whose fan you are

I'm a fan of Button, Rosberg and a bit of Sutil. I like most drivers though. Not Alonso and Maldonado though.

 

fans of drivers who never had to face such genius-teammates or at least super-strong-teammate competition as Alonso did with Hamilton (and vice versa) or Senna did with Prost (and vice versa) (and Vettel or Schumacher didn't have to), have to stop complaining about drivers' behaviour when having those teammate calibers. The probability is very high that Vettel or Schumacher would have behaved very very similarly (i.e. bitchy), if they drove against Senna or Alonso or Hamilton or Prost as teammates for one or two seasons, if not worse (when you have in mind how Vettel already behaved in Sepang 2013 against only someone like Webber).

Yeah, I agree to an extent, but Hamilton didn't act like that, for example. And the poignant issue is that Alonso behaves like that EVEN when his team mate isn't competitive. Piquet? Massa? I'm sorry but those drivers aren't good enough (in comparison to Alonso) to justify his bitchiness. Though, again, I do agree with you, up to a point.

Edited by Morbus, 12 January 2014 - 12:12.

Who are you talking about here?

Hakkinen.

He has been happy in the past to openly slate his team, other teams, and drivers to get his point across, even if his own reputation took a hit, so did others.

Funny thing is: if others complain about their cars/Ferraris (i.e. "truck") already in the first season of its sh**ness (1991) and Alonso does it in the third or fourth season of its sh**ness ("fourth" if you include the 2010 season where the car has already been sh**) then I don't know why Alonso is considered to be such a crybaby compared to others.

If Prost already did it in 1991 after a great car in 1990, then Alonso had every right to complain in 2013 after having rubbish cars for multiple seasons without fearing getting his ear tweaked.

And compared to the 2011 Ferrari the 1991 version was probably not worse (Alesi got some podiums and Massa none... Prost could qualify a few times as second and Alonso one time) so that Alonso had all the right in the world to complain even back in 2011.