What's happened to Martin Whitmarsh?

And that's exactly the reason why Whitmarsh wasn't a good TP - he doesn't come across as competitive, or a racer.

 

2007 was an epic failure for Ron Dennis, but he did it chasing a F1 Championship with a superstar rookie he had been grooming since childhood. Dennis saw an opportunity and had the balls to go for it. Think about that Senna quote everyone likes to use: "If you no longer go for a gap that exists, then you are no longer a racing driver". Guys like Dennis, Brawn, Horner, Boullier and Todt play to win. Whitmarsh seems to be happy collecting points.

Putting it in context Ron hadn't won a wcc in more than a decade and only won one wcc in almost his last two decades of leadership at McLaren and at the end in 2009 he was no longer a force. I would say that If McLaren wins this season most of the credit certainly will have to go to Whitmarsh as this season is all about the car which Whitmarsh has apparently delivered in spades long before the Dennis coup d'etat.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 22 February 2014 - 17:06.

Whatever has happened, it is clear to me that there is only one man to blame for Martin Whitmarsh's disappearance...

Whatever has happened, it is clear to me that there is only one man to blame for Martin Whitmarsh's disappearance...

 

You mean this guy...

Edited by garagetinkerer, 22 February 2014 - 20:58.

In breaking news, I think I saw Mr. Whitmarsh here in Canada.  He does seem to have taken things rather badly, and let himself go somewhat.  Either that or he's in witness protection after turning over some stuff he photocopied in Woking.

Neil

 

 

What's happened to Martin Whitmarsh?

I ate him with some fava beans and a nice chianti,

I heard Whitmarsh turned to a life of vigilante crime-fighting as a superhero.

Before we call McLaren renewd again lets remember they're only the 2nd best out of 4 teams as the other 7 have a crappy engine

Ferrari engine looks fine to me.

Putting it in context Ron hadn't won a wcc in more than a decade and only won one wcc in almost his last two decades of leadership at McLaren and at the end in 2009 he was no longer a force. I would say that If McLaren wins this season most of the credit certainly will have to go to Whitmarsh as this season is all about the car which Whitmarsh has apparently delivered in spades long before the Dennis coup d'etat.

First of all, it's never 'all about the car'. If it were, how do you explain Ferrari winning the WCC in 2008, but losing the WDC to Lewis? or the disparity between Webber and Vettel? It's about the entire team performing as unit, and maximizing the opportunities they get.

You're right though. Ron Dennis hadn't won a WCC in more than a decade, but if you're going to put it in context, at least be fair about it.

Let's list Ron's accomplishments at McLaren/ Project 4

1. Pioneered the use of the carbon fiber tub

2. Successfully merged 2 small privateer teams into a world-class engineering organization

3. Oversaw 4 hugely successful road car projects as group CEO

4. Under his leadership, 5 different drivers have become WDC

Granted, as you rightly pointed out, that success trailed off in the later years. However, in terms of professional success, Whitmarsh isn't even in the same class.

But that's not my point.

My point is that Whitmarsh, in my opinion, doesn't have the right personality to be a top TP. He reminds me of Dr. Mario Theisson of BMW: the people management and technical skills are there, but lacking in leadership and too risk-adverse so that they don't go for the opportunity when it presents itself. Granted, both Theisson and Whitmarsh only had 1 chance (2008, and 2012 respectively), but when competing at the world-class level, most of the time, you're lucky to even get that.

In contrast, Brawn could be the prototypical F1 TP. In 2009, no one could have faulted Brawn for packing it in. Huge global recession, his manufacturer (and funding) pulled out of the sport, along with 2 other major manufacturers. You couldn't have picked a worse time to start a racing team, never mind a privately backed one. He knew the Honda chassis was special, so he put all his chips on the table. Don't have an engine? Get a deal done with Mercedes. Have no sponsors? No problem: fund the team out of your own pocket till you can get some help. Other teams pass you in the development race? Don't have the money to compete? Back your better driver early on, and strategize to maximize his point  haul per weekend. The result? 2009 WDC and WCC.

That being said, I'm curious as to where he will end up. He has way too much talent for McLaren to let him go. I could see him heading a technical department or something similar.

First of all, it's never 'all about the car'. If it were, how do you explain Ferrari winning the WCC in 2008, but losing the WDC to Lewis? or the disparity between Webber and Vettel? It's about the entire team performing as unit, and maximizing the opportunities they get.

 

You're right though. Ron Dennis hadn't won a WCC in more than a decade, but if you're going to put it in context, at least be fair about it.

 

Let's list Ron's accomplishments at McLaren/ Project 4

 

1. Pioneered the use of the carbon fiber tub

2. Successfully merged 2 small privateer teams into a world-class engineering organization

3. Oversaw 4 hugely successful road car projects as group CEO

4. Under his leadership, 5 different drivers have become WDC

 

Granted, as you rightly pointed out, that success trailed off in the later years. However, in terms of professional success, Whitmarsh isn't even in the same class.

 

But that's not my point.

 

My point is that Whitmarsh, in my opinion, doesn't have the right personality to be a top TP. He reminds me of Dr. Mario Theisson of BMW: the people management and technical skills are there, but lacking in leadership and too risk-adverse so that they don't go for the opportunity when it presents itself. Granted, both Theisson and Whitmarsh only had 1 chance (2008, and 2012 respectively), but when competing at the world-class level, most of the time, you're lucky to even get that.

 

In contrast, Brawn could be the prototypical F1 TP. In 2009, no one could have faulted Brawn for packing it in. Huge global recession, his manufacturer (and funding) pulled out of the sport, along with 2 other major manufacturers. You couldn't have picked a worse time to start a racing team, never mind a privately backed one. He knew the Honda chassis was special, so he put all his chips on the table. Don't have an engine? Get a deal done with Mercedes. Have no sponsors? No problem: fund the team out of your own pocket till you can get some help. Other teams pass you in the development race? Don't have the money to compete? Back your better driver early on, and strategize to maximize his point  haul per weekend. The result? 2009 WDC and WCC.

 

That being said, I'm curious as to where he will end up. He has way too much talent for McLaren to let him go. I could see him heading a technical department or something similar.

Your comparison is very flawed mate. It is like comparing Enzo Ferrari (or pick some other random more successful person) and Ron Dennis. You could only compare their success at the given thing which they both have had done. Otherwise, one could argue that it is a biased/ not neutral opinion to begin with, which colours the perspective.

Edited by garagetinkerer, 22 February 2014 - 21:03.

Your comparison is very flawed mate. It is like comparing Enzo Ferrari (or pick some other random more successful person) and Ron Dennis. You could only compare their success at the given thing which they both have had done. Otherwise, one could argue that it is a biased/ not neutral opinion to begin with, which colours the perspective.

I see what you're saying, but I'm not comparing Whitmarsh to Dennis. As I said in my post, they're not in the same class. 

I'm comparing the Whitmarsh/Theisson personality type to Ross Brawn (and Eric Boullier/Christian Horner in my earlier post) - specifically to what they've done in their direct capacity as TP.

The take home message from my example is that in one case, Brawn had half a chance in 2009, Horner had a chance in 2010 and both of their teams made the most of the opportunity. Whereas Whitmarsh had a chance in 2012, and his team threw it away through operational errors.

I see what you're saying, but I'm not comparing Whitmarsh to Dennis. As I said in my post, they're not in the same class. 

 

I'm comparing the Whitmarsh/Theisson personality type to Ross Brawn (and Eric Boullier/Christian Horner in my earlier post) - specifically to what they've done in their direct capacity as TP.

The take home message from my example is that in one case, Brawn had half a chance in 2009, Horner had a chance in 2010 and both of their teams made the most of the opportunity. Whereas Whitmarsh had a chance in 2012, and his team threw it away through operational errors.

What you are doing is taking a viewpoint and cherry picking facts to suite your argument around them. Everybody does that to an extent, but yours is rather a textbook example.

Now. Let's examine it a little. Brawn at 2009. The car that he had was arguably the most expensive car development project at Formula One history, costing approximately 1 billion, yes, with a b, dollars to make. Somehow, when that advantage was taken from him and even though he ran a factory team, it took him 3 years to win race one after that. We are not talking about championship contenders. We are talking about winning ONE race in a team with comparable resources to McLaren. In the meantime McLaren won about 12.

Our new best friend Eric. For all his supposed genius during his reign at the Lotus team he has managed to win exactly 2 races. Now, for all we know the guy might be a real deal and he probably is, but to say he has a "winners personality" while the guy that made McLaren a contender 2010 and 2012, and second in the  WDC between those years, with two different drivers doesn't... I guess that goes firmly to one's belief system... The religious kind at that.

With Horner you might have an argument as the guy has undoubtedly been the most successful team principal over the last 6 years. The way you chose to present it is quite funny however as Horner had about as much of a chance to win the WDC in 2009 as had Brawn. And to lose the championship in 2010 something rather weird must have had happened and it almost did.

Comparing Whitmarsh to Theissen, a guy that despite massive arrogance and vast funds managed to write exactly ONE race win to his CV and was forced to leave with his tail between his legs the sport altogether, almost taking the team down with him, well. We truly see what we want to see, don't we.

Tbh I was starting to feel sorry for him...

 

 

 

Until I remembered how chummy he was with JB back in 2011. Back the wrong driver - that's what you get.

 

If he kept LH sweet he wouldn't be without a job.

Lewis seems to disagree:

What you are doing is taking a viewpoint and cherry picking facts to suite your argument around them. Everybody does that to an extent, but yours is rather a textbook example.

 

Now. Let's examine it a little. Brawn at 2009. The car that he had was arguably the most expensive car development project at Formula One history, costing approximately 1 billion, yes, with a b, dollars to make. Somehow, when that advantage was taken from him and even though he ran a factory team, it took him 3 years to win race one after that. We are not talking about championship contenders. We are talking about winning ONE race in a team with comparable resources to McLaren. In the meantime McLaren won about 12.

Our new best friend Eric. For all his supposed genius during his reign at the Lotus team he has managed to win exactly 2 races. Now, for all we know the guy might be a real deal and he probably is, but to say he has a "winners personality" while the guy that made McLaren a contender 2010 and 2012, and second in the  WDC between those years, with two different drivers doesn't... I guess that goes firmly to one's belief system... The religious kind at that.

With Horner you might have an argument as the guy has undoubtedly been the most successful team principal over the last 6 years. The way you chose to present it is quite funny however as Horner had about as much of a chance to win the WDC in 2009 as had Brawn. And to lose the championship in 2010 something rather weird must have had happened and it almost did.

Comparing Whitmarsh to Theissen, a guy that despite massive arrogance and vast funds managed to write exactly ONE race win to his CV and was forced to leave with his tail between his legs the sport altogether, almost taking the team down with him, well. We truly see what we want to see, don't we.

Dont forget that MW did that with smaller budget than Ferrari and Red Bull.

Dont forget that MW did that with smaller budget than Ferrari and Red Bull.

...and Mercedes. I didn't.

Edited by Owen, 22 February 2014 - 23:52.

Ron is conducting media interviews on March 6, we may learn of Martins position at that point (and possibly his whereabouts!)

I expect Ron to announce that has Whitmarsh inspecting concrete with Jimmy Hoffa.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 23 February 2014 - 16:54.

Everyone put the 2007 guns down and back away slowly and instead share your Martin Whitmarsh sightings please because I think we're really getting somewhere.

Rumours are that he has been sighted by a Yeti.

Maybe he went fishing... that is the universal answer in similar cases

Poor Fredo.

Edited by SR388, 23 February 2014 - 04:29.

I see what you're saying, but I'm not comparing Whitmarsh to Dennis. As I said in my post, they're not in the same class. 

 

I'm comparing the Whitmarsh/Theisson personality type to Ross Brawn (and Eric Boullier/Christian Horner in my earlier post) - specifically to what they've done in their direct capacity as TP.

The take home message from my example is that in one case, Brawn had half a chance in 2009, Horner had a chance in 2010 and both of their teams made the most of the opportunity. Whereas Whitmarsh had a chance in 2012, and his team threw it away through operational errors.

You do understand that McLaren were always piss poor at this sort of thing? I mean Brawn and Schumacher ran rings around them in a slower Ferrari and so many times it is not even funny unless you're a tifosi (i'm and i enjoyed those races a lot!). So blaming only Whitmarsh is rather inane in my opinion when the problem is more endemic and has existed for as long as it has. One such brilliant gem is a moment from Chinese GP of 2007, when tifosi all over the world pointed their fingers and doubled over with laughter. The press conference after, it was cherry on top! "We were racing Alonso!"

One thing is for sure, even as a tifoso, the human face of McLaren seemed more acceptable under Whitmarsh. I mean, apart from the rivalry, the fact that Whitmarsh was so honest, and friendly, it was sodding infectious. Ron brings different sort of infections, if you get my drift! I must sleep now... too late in the night, and too damned sleep deprived.

Edited by garagetinkerer, 23 February 2014 - 06:51.

As much as I'm enjoying the Martin's-at-the-bottom-of-a-lake jokes, I'm gonna give a serious answer.

One only has to look to the sister organisation, McLaren Automotive to guess where Whitmarsh is. Anthony Sheriff was RD's number 2 at McLaren Automotive, but when targets weren't meant (or whatever happened not to Ron's liking), he was promptly dismissed and placed on 'gardening leave' [http://www.autocar.c...y-sheriff-leave]

Ron Dennis has seen many high class staff leave his organisations and gardening leave is a great way of making sure you don't lose intellectual property or the leaving person doesn't take staff with him. I'm thinking it's been more in RD's interest to get rid of Martin, but place him on gardening leave so that he doesn't a) Take intellectual property and staff to a competing organisation b) Doesn't talk smack about RD. So I'm thinking Ron is paying Martin his full check to holiday and relax after many a hard year work at McLaren. And in return, he just keeps his head low, doesn't go around to other organisations and doesn't talk to the media.

Another possibility is Martin is simply extremely wounded after dedicating the last 25 years of his life to McLaren, and in return being sacked quite abruptly by the man who nurtured him to the top. Martin has been walking around like the weight of the earth is on his shoulder since he took over from Ron at McLaren and his payment has been termination. Maybe he's had a bit of a breakdown and is living the zen life.

As much as I'm enjoying the Martin's-at-the-bottom-of-a-lake jokes, I'm gonna give a serious answer.

 

One only has to look to the sister organisation, McLaren Automotive to guess where Whitmarsh is. Anthony Sheriff was RD's number 2 at McLaren Automotive, but when targets weren't meant (or whatever happened not to Ron's liking), he was promptly dismissed and placed on 'gardening leave' [http://www.autocar.c...y-sheriff-leave]

 

Ron Dennis has seen many high class staff leave his organisations and gardening leave is a great way of making sure you don't lose intellectual property or the leaving person doesn't take staff with him. I'm thinking it's been more in RD's interest to get rid of Martin, but place him on gardening leave so that he doesn't a) Take intellectual property and staff to a competing organisation b) Doesn't talk smack about RD. So I'm thinking Ron is paying Martin his full check to holiday and relax after many a hard year work at McLaren. And in return, he just keeps his head low, doesn't go around to other organisations and doesn't talk to the media.

 

 

Another possibility is Martin is simply extremely wounded after dedicating the last 25 years of his life to McLaren, and in return being sacked quite abruptly by the man who nurtured him to the top. Martin has been walking around like the weight of the earth is on his shoulder since he took over from Ron at McLaren and his payment has been termination. Maybe he's had a bit of a breakdown and is living the zen life.

He is most likely fighting Dennis's lawyers as hard as he can to try and save his pension.  

As much as I'm enjoying the Martin's-at-the-bottom-of-a-lake jokes, I'm gonna give a serious answer.

 

One only has to look to the sister organisation, McLaren Automotive to guess where Whitmarsh is. Anthony Sheriff was RD's number 2 at McLaren Automotive, but when targets weren't meant (or whatever happened not to Ron's liking), he was promptly dismissed and placed on 'gardening leave' [http://www.autocar.c...y-sheriff-leave]

 

 

 

Nothing to do with targets, it was a fallout over share holding

I'm sad to see Martin be sidelined to be honest, good guys getting the chop whilst guys who  steal IP through a photocopier or crash cars into a  barrier to get the safety car out  etc are still in there.

The game is just too intense to allow good blokes to shine though;

Edited by Andy35, 23 February 2014 - 17:41.

Nothing to do with targets, it was a fallout over share holding

 

 

I'm sad to see Martin be sidelined to be honest, good guys getting the chop whilst guys who  steal IP through a photocopier or crash cars into a  barrier to get the safety car out  etc are still in there.

 

The game is just too intense to allow good blokes to shine though;

Didn't McLaren also try to fix a race/ title in '97?

Oh yes, i found this gem on Jalopnik. Since no one posted it here...

Edited by garagetinkerer, 23 February 2014 - 18:49.

Martins plotting his comeback and revenge, Ron's bitten off more than he can chew, you mark my words.

The achievement of Martin Whitmarsh for McLaren 2014 will go as unlauded as Ross Brawn's achievement for Mercedes 2014. Ironically, Boullier and Lowe will be there to take the credit. I find it a sorry state of affairs, yet it is what it is: reality.

Didn't McLaren also try to fix a race/ title in '97?

 

Sure. They crashed an opponent out deliberately.

Martins plotting his comeback and revenge, Ron's bitten off more than he can chew, you mark my words.

I know you liked Martin and he was a friend of Buttons, but you got to come to terms that he's gone.

And I don't know how you think Rons bitten off more then he could chew, Martin is gone, gone for good. 

I know you liked Martin and he was a friend of Buttons, but you got to come to terms that he's gone.

Martin's a friend of Button, a friend of Lewis, a friend of small animals.

Martin's a friend of Button, a friend of Lewis, a friend of small animals.

St Martin of Woking

The patron saint of hindsight,

I know you liked Martin and he was a friend of Buttons, but you got to come to terms that he's gone.

 

And I don't know how you think Rons bitten off more then he could chew, Martin is gone, gone for good. 

Source?

Sure. They crashed an opponent out deliberately.

http://forums.autosp...ms-and-mclaren/

They fixed the result of the race and the WDC, just as bad in my opinion.

http://forums.autosp...ms-and-mclaren/

 

They fixed the result of the race and the WDC, just as bad in my opinion.

And a FORUM THREAD is your source? Funny that. Also funny that they won the race 1-2. That is race fixing in favour of Villeneuve? The idiot (sorry, he was at the day) deliberately crashing into Villeneuve (who happened to start on pole while the "race fixing McLarens" started behind both Williams cars and Schumacher) and himself out of the race was what fixed the championship. He had done it once before, it worked, the second time it didn't, too bad I suppose.

Glad to know it still hurts. I also find it moderately amusing that you find that "qualifying behind the WDC leaders, then racing behind them, then when the leader's car is broken by another driver, overtaking him whilst NOT crashing into him and winning the race" thing as bad as crashing an opponent out on purpose but apparently have no problems in having 4 Ferrari cars out there all driving for Schumacher's championship.

My ignore list is quite crowded as it is, but I suppose I can find room for one or two names in there still if pressed.
 

Source?

I was unable to reach small animals for a quote, sorry, but his friendly relations with Jenson, Lewis AND Sergio are matter of public knowledge.

I was unable to reach small animals for a quote, sorry, but his friendly relations with Jenson, Lewis AND Sergio are matter of public knowledge.

I was just kidding anyway.

And a FORUM THREAD is your source? Funny that. Also funny that they won the race 1-2. That is race fixing in favour of Villeneuve? The idiot (sorry, he was at the day) deliberately crashing into Villeneuve (who happened to start on pole while the "race fixing McLarens" started behind both Williams cars and Schumacher) and himself out of the race was what fixed the championship. He had done it once before, it worked, the second time it didn't, too bad I suppose.

Glad to know it still hurts. I also find it moderately amusing that you find that "qualifying behind the WDC leaders, then racing behind them, then when the leader's car is broken by another driver, overtaking him whilst NOT crashing into him and winning the race" thing as bad as crashing an opponent out on purpose but apparently have no problems in having 4 Ferrari cars out there all driving for Schumacher's championship.

 

My ignore list is quite crowded as it is, but I suppose I can find room for one or two names in there still if pressed.
 

I actually wanted to save ourselves the trouble of discussing it through here and i was a bit lazy so i didn't clarify my intent. You know something FIA pulled up both McLaren and Williams, but released them on lack of evidence. Now lack of evidence is not always innocent. You're further putting words in my mouth, and mostly reading what's not there, well at least what was not said by me. The evidence that there were 4 Ferrari cars is only as good as the evidence that there was a collusion between McLaren and Williams. Did FIA punish Ferrari and Sauber? All i said was it was just as bad in my opinion. You don't have to like it, you don't have to agree, but to have your knickers in a twist like that... well, to each their own.

Oh no, a threat to put me on ignore list! What will i do!  Oh wait, i have a life out of the forums here. However, it is good to know how you handle a difference of opinion. Quite mature!

Breaking news... It has been confirmed via independent sources (kept private to protect them from his Ron-ness) that Whitmarsh was replaced as a CEO for this!

What you see ladies and gentleman is Ron's snack being misappropriated by the soft spoken erstwhile CEO of McLaren Racing. Ron is quoted to be "feeling quite betrayed" after his favourite snack was snuck right under his gaze!

Ron however has independently confirmed that the "snack-fu incident" as this has become known in a viral fashion on the internet, is just something that has been made up by opposing factions with an active interest in creating a rift in the sterile environments of Woking. Here he could be seen making a public statement to the effect

images: Are linked to where they were found, and they weren't modified.

note to mod:

thread got a little too serious for strange resons, i thought i'd be a little funny, do edit/ delete, if deemed not appropriate.

Edited by garagetinkerer, 24 February 2014 - 05:04.

  However, it is good to know how you handle a difference of opinion.

No, it's how I handle agenda pushers.

Breaking news... It has been confirmed via independent sources (kept private to protect them from his Ron-ness) that Whitmarsh was replaced as a CEO for this!

 

 

What you see ladies and gentleman is Ron's snack being misappropriated by the soft spoken erstwhile CEO of McLaren Racing. Ron is quoted to be "feeling quite betrayed" after his favourite snack was snuck right under his gaze!

 

 

Nonsense.  It is very well known that there is no shortage of choc ices at the  MTC at Woking since Kimi left.

BRG is of course quite correct, but it does also explain Martin's new role at Woking:

Neil

something unexpected is going to happen with MW in terms of his position at Macca. please spare me the bottom of the lake jokes...sad.

if he is announced as the last CEO position there is going to be a lot of smacked arse faces around here.

https://twitter.com/...7875200/photo/1

something unexpected is going to happen with MW in terms of his position at Macca. please spare me the bottom of the lake jokes...sad.

 

if he is announced as the last CEO position there is going to be a lot of smacked arse faces around here.

A lot of people posting actually like MW and are just being silly and having fun, me included.  I think most wish him the best, I hope he is still involved in F1.

for four days? and that's just this thread

for four days? and that's just this thread

This quite typical of an internet forum.  Nobody knows what the true situation is until the 6th of March perhaps.

Edited by Obi Offiah, 24 February 2014 - 20:54.

for four days? and that's just this thread

Preseason, what else are people going to do.

Yep, the Mclaren.com website still lists MW as Team Principle, and Boullier as Racing Director... 

surely they should nhave announced what was happening to him. are they going to wait until the 6th to say "oh yeah btw MW is sacked"?

It's interesting people say he was honest or something similar. He was capable of flat-out lying to everyone in front of cameras (see: post-race interview after the Australia 2009 Hamilton-Trulli SC car situation), but I agree he was quite likeable.