INDYCAR driver Simona De Silvestro may get 2015 Sauber F1 seat

Barrichello did finish 12th with the same team in 2012, for what it's worth (apologies if that was already mentioned). I don't think De Silvestro would be any worse than Sirotkin or van der Garde, they're not exactly top flight F1 drivers at this point.

I assume you mean the best shot a woman has had in the modern era, given that we've had women drive in F1 before

Yes notably Lella Lombardi who finished 6th in shortened Spanish GP, not her fault it only tallied 1/2 point still a record for women.

Desire Wilson won a non championship British series F1 race. Both women were in F1 on merit. There have been others but these two stand out.

Fernando Alonso was 23rd in his first Formula One Season. In your words that then wasn't much of a basis to get a midfield race seat.

 

Looking at her results has little to no meaning at all, if you don't take into account the car she was driving. For the seasons 2010-2012 we don't have a comparison, because she was driving in a one-car team. In 2013 she was in a team with Tony Kanaan. He finished the season 11th, with 397 points, Simona not far off in 13th with 362 points. I would say that this is a good result.

 

Is it good enough, especially considering the problems most IndyCar drivers have had in Formula 1? Who can say? Maybe being too good at IndyCar hinders you in Formula 1?

 

Anyway, we must not forget that Simona is competing against Esteban Gutierrez and Guido van der Garde for a seat at Sauber, not Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso.

No, those are your words. F1 and Indycar are not equivalent. You can tell that from the record of many of those who have made the switch.

Maybe she's got more potential than it looks like from her results. I wouldn't know, as Indycar has no free-to-air coverage in the UK as far as I know, and hasn't done for years. So I haven't been watching closely enough to say. I appreciate it matters what team you drive for, but if none of the top Indycar teams have decided to hire Di Silvestro, why would a serious F1 team want to?

It is, of course, absolutely correct to say we're talking about a pay seat, here, so inevitably the team is restricted to considering those who can raise the required funds, not just picking the best available driver. But even out of the three names you mention, I must say Di Silvestro would be my third pick, as the other two have the advantage of prior F1 experience.

I assume Sauber's aim is for its drivers to aim to finish rather higher up the F1 WDC standings than Di Silvestro has thus far managed to finish in the Indycar standings, unless they've lowered their sights considerably of late. So from that point of view it seems like an act of optimism to hire Di Silvestro and then place those expectations on her.

I wouldn't know, as Indycar has no free-to-air coverage in the UK as far as I know, and hasn't done for years. So I haven't been watching closely enough to say.

I'm all for a woman racer in F1 but 1 based on merit and quality of racing results  Simona just isn't that women nor is Danica etc.  I wish the racing community would be more open to accepting female racers and giving them a fair shake and support to try and get into F1.

They are. Women aren't being shut out of F1 or motorsport, they're being given plenty of opportunities. There simply aren't enough of them coming in yet.

 

I assume Sauber's aim is for its drivers to aim to finish rather higher up the F1 WDC standings than Di Silvestro has thus far managed to finish in the Indycar standings, unless they've lowered their sights considerably of late.

You are still going on about standings. Then I'll follow up on your logic.

Sutil is now 16th, Gutierrez 17th. So a driver who can finish 13th should be a step up then.

I'm all for a woman racer in F1 but 1 based on merit and quality of racing results  Simona just isn't that women nor is Danica etc.  I wish the racing community would be more open to accepting female racers and giving them a fair shake and support to try and get into F1.

Equality of outcome is not the same as equality of opportunity. There are no conspiratorial forces trying to keep women out of racing, in fact I'd think it's probably the opposites. There just aren't a lot of girls who give a **** about racing and the ones who do are usually not up to scratch talent-wise.

Edited by Andrew Hope, 07 May 2014 - 20:11.

Equality of outcome is not the same as equality of opportunity. There are no conspiratorial forces trying to keep women out of racing, in fact I'd think it's probably the opposites. There just aren't a lot of girls who give a **** about racing and the ones who do are usually not up to scratch talent-wise.

I agree.

Do you think Susie Wolff would be doing some FPSs this year in F1 if she wasn't a woman?

Yes, if she had enough cash to buy the chance.  

Fernando Alonso was 23rd in his first Formula One Season. In your words that then wasn't much of a basis to get a midfield race seat.

 

Looking at her results has little to no meaning at all, if you don't take into account the car she was driving. For the seasons 2010-2012 we don't have a comparison, because she was driving in a one-car team. In 2013 she was in a team with Tony Kanaan. He finished the season 11th, with 397 points, Simona not far off in 13th with 362 points. I would say that this is a good result.

 

Is it good enough, especially considering the problems most IndyCar drivers have had in Formula 1? Who can say? Maybe being too good at IndyCar hinders you in Formula 1?

 

Anyway, we must not forget that Simona is competing against Esteban Gutierrez and Guido van der Garde for a seat at Sauber, not Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso.

IMO, she may have had mediocre season ending results in IndyCar, but what impressed me about her is her pace at some of the events.  There were some venues where she was one of the quickest drivers out there - period.  This lady can drive.  I hope she gets a chance in F1.

Equality of outcome is not the same as equality of opportunity. There are no conspiratorial forces trying to keep women out of racing, in fact I'd think it's probably the opposites. There just aren't a lot of girls who give a **** about racing and the ones who do are usually not up to scratch talent-wise.

Though it should be kept in mind that it is ultimately the overwhelming forces keeping women out of racing that have bred this opposition. As Ross alluded to, it's a numbers game and we're decades away from equality on that level.

No, those are your words. F1 and Indycar are not equivalent. You can tell that from the record of many of those who have made the switch.

 

Maybe she's got more potential than it looks like from her results. I wouldn't know, as Indycar has no free-to-air coverage in the UK as far as I know, and hasn't done for years. So I haven't been watching closely enough to say. I appreciate it matters what team you drive for, but if none of the top Indycar teams have decided to hire Di Silvestro, why would a serious F1 team want to?

 

It is, of course, absolutely correct to say we're talking about a pay seat, here, so inevitably the team is restricted to considering those who can raise the required funds, not just picking the best available driver. But even out of the three names you mention, I must say Di Silvestro would be my third pick, as the other two have the advantage of prior F1 experience.

 

I assume Sauber's aim is for its drivers to aim to finish rather higher up the F1 WDC standings than Di Silvestro has thus far managed to finish in the Indycar standings, unless they've lowered their sights considerably of late. So from that point of view it seems like an act of optimism to hire Di Silvestro and then place those expectations on her.

By your own admission you have not watched SdS race, providing an inherit bias in favour of anyone you are familiar with. I have no problem discussing with you the broader aspects to this topic, but with respect to the level of debate, I don't think its appropriate for any poster to make arguments with a self-proclaimed basis in "I haven't been watching closely enough to say." That said, I imagine I have my own inherent hypocrisy with regards to wishing her to make it in F1.

IMO, she may have had mediocre season ending results in IndyCar, but what impressed me about her is her pace at some of the events. There were some venues where she was one of the quickest drivers out there - period. This lady can drive. I hope she gets a chance in F1.

By your own admission you have not watched SdS race, providing an inherit bias in favour of anyone you are familiar with. I have no problem discussing with you the broader aspects to this topic, but with respect to the level of debate, I don't think its appropriate for any poster to make arguments with a self-proclaimed basis in "I haven't been watching closely enough to say." That said, I imagine I have my own inherent hypocrisy with regards to wishing her to make it in F1.

I actually have watched SdS race, but only in 2012 when it was clear that she had no chance of running competitively due to the Lotus engine. I therefore don't know much about her, which is why I confine myself to looking at her results and, even on that flimsy basis, I still reserve the right to raise an eyebrow that she is apparently being considered for an F1 seat with an often-competitive midfield outfit, and I don't agree that it's "inappropriate" for me or any other poster to express such an opinion, particularly having gone out of my way to make it clear exactly what my opinion was based on. I wasn't professing to be certain that SdS wouldn't be able to cut it in F1, which is why I mentioned that I had not been following Indycar closely enough to venture a firm opinion on that. You're clearly much more familiar with SdS's performances over a period of years than I am so I wouldn't want to argue with you about her potential. I'm sure you're right.

Indy Cars have lower downforce. Maybe she prefers more downforce like a certain vettel does. I think we'll have to reserve our judgement until she actually does a test. 

Which is sort of the point, really--IndyCar can be so random at times that this is really only all you can go on.

True, although the number of drivers with a second-place finish to their name is probably smaller than you'd think. For what it's worth, the upper limit of my expectations for her are around the Takuma Sato level. Both in potential speed and consistency. On that basis I think she may well be quick enough for F1 and may even be as quick as her teammate, if her teammate is Sutil, Gutierrez or Sirotkin.

It's a shame that marketing doesn't think the visibly-socially-awkward-at-all-times demographic is as ripe for monetization as the woman demographic, because then maybe there'd be a bigger campaign to get Will Power into F1.

Edited by Risil, 08 May 2014 - 12:46.

I'm happy to see her given a shot....considering the amount of paid for drivers with questionable credibility. 

Might look a bit stupid though surrounded by grid girls,although that might actually make the sport's attitudes move on from the 70's.

It was cringe seeing grid girls at the WEC (considering the female talent amongst the teams) and about time F1 stood up. I liked RLM's suggestion of fan mascots (ie like football games etc). 

If people wanna perve, there's the internet. 

She's no less deserving than any of the other paid drivers at the back of the grid, and if she's terrible? So what, she just wasn't good enough. 

Edited by Elissa, 08 May 2014 - 12:47.

Though it should be kept in mind that it is ultimately the overwhelming forces keeping women out of racing that have bred this opposition. As Ross alluded to, it's a numbers game and we're decades away from equality on that level.

The end goal is not supposed to be 50% male, 50% female. 10% white, 10% black, 10% whatever. As long as women have an equal opportunity to race if they want to, that's what we should be aiming for. Do they not have this already? As long as a 10 year old girl has just as many opportunities to be a race car driver as a 10 year old boy, if the ratio at the pro level is 95:5 men:women, that's just how it is.

I'm happy to see her given a shot....considering the amount of paid for drivers with questionable credibility. 
 
Might look a bit stupid though surrounded by grid girls,although that might actually make the sport's attitudes move on from the 70's.
 
It was cringe seeing grid girls at the WEC (considering the female talent amongst the teams) and about time F1 stood up. I liked RLM's suggestion of fan mascots (ie like football games etc). 
 
If people wanna perve, there's the internet. 
 
She's no less deserving than any of the other paid drivers at the back of the grid, and if she's terrible? So what, she just wasn't good enough.

I think she's deserving of a chance at F1, more so than some drivers, less than others, but final judgement should be reserved until we see how she takes that chance. She certainly seemed comfortable with the Sauber at Fiorano but that's obviously not much of a measuring stick.

As far as her IndyCar career goes, it should be remembered that HVM was a very small one car team that was always going to be an uphill struggle for a rookie and 2012 was a right off thanks to that Lotus engine (she could have got out and pushed it faster on the ovals). As for KV, they're probably one of the worst performing teams in IndyCar, plenty of resources but massively inconsistent and have been for years. She's proven to be quick on more than enough occasions for it to be more than the usual ebb and flow of IC racing and though the cars have less downforce they don't have power steering so there's no doubt she's got the physical fitness for the job but just needs to work on specific muscles (as any driver moving into F1 would). 

Well she's no *more* deserving than guys like Gutierrez and Chilton, either. Unless she brings more money than these guys, then she's an objectively inferior choice for a team.

Personally, I think having a girl come in that does terrible might not actually be the best thing. If we want people's attitude to change about the perception of women drivers, having one enter the top level and failing would only reinforce somebody's preconceived notions. I think a reasonable person would see that its just a matter of numbers, but expecting people to be reasonable is almost *always* too much to expect.

I get the failing thing.....Dare I say the slightest mistake (inevitable as it is) will be pounced upon and run with far more than someone else, I have this feeling the knives would be out looking for her to fail at every chance. 

I worry that because the pressure will be huge on the first 'modern' female racer it could put off potential candidates. We have people paying to drive at the back with no hope of winning, let alone points. In theory people should be reasonable enough to give SdS the same leeway same as say a JEV or Chiltern etc....

I don't think it's wise building up this pressure on a first female to 'win' and anything else would be seen as a failure. Get people through the door (credible ones at that) and break down this self induced catch 22 scenario. 

Well she's no *more* deserving than guys like Gutierrez and Chilton, either. Unless she brings more money than these guys, then she's an objectively inferior choice for a team.

Personally, I think having a girl come in that does terrible might not actually be the best thing. If we want people's attitude to change about the perception of women drivers, having one enter the top level and failing would only reinforce somebody's preconceived notions. I think a reasonable person would see that its just a matter of numbers, but expecting people to be reasonable is almost *always* too much to expect.

You've gotta say though that attitudes towards women in F1 are not entirely pre-conceived. Pre-conceived by definition means making your mind up before you have any evidence or familiarity, but Simona wouldn't be the first woman in F1. Just the first since the Internet. The F1 fanbase is very childish in a lot of ways (and I certainly include myself in that, the douche that I am), but when the grand total of all achievement from every woman combined in 65 years of the sport is 0.5 points from a race 40 years ago that was stopped halfway through because a car went into the stands and killed people in the crowd, it's not exactly "pre-conceived" to think there are not many women around up to the task in F1. It's history-conceived. Desire Wilson may have been capable in better machinery but when you troll out Giovanna Amati, who was basically Riccardo Rosset in high heels, I'm not sure what you're expecting the racing world to think. I'm sure there's a fair few people who don't know anything about F1 earlier than 2009 (or anything about Simona) who are just ignorant and that's their problem, but if you can give F1 fans anything it's that they're generally pretty well-versed on the history of the sport, and it's not unreasonable to be skeptical of a female driver when the idea is first brought to you if you're aware of the history women have in F1, particularly a Swiss girl signing for a Swiss team with a female team principal. It's not crazy to be trepidatious at first, although it would be crazy to ignore the feverish insistence in this thread by people like myself who have seen Simona race for the last few years and been thoroughly wowed by her speed.

I've already said in this thread I think Simona definitely has what it takes if she could be in F1 long-term, but F1 and long-term are not two statements that generally go together. If she had a guaranteed 3 years I have no doubt she'd be doing as well as the car's capability by the end of it, but we've seen too many guys show up for one or two years and do nothing to think she would be all that different. And there's no reason to treat her any different, either. F1 fandom makes you want to hang yourself at the best of times, but imagine all the patronizing and condescending bullshit we'd get every time Simona finished 19th. We can't say "treat everyone equally" and then turn around and give her "good for a girl" credits. Sometimes you hear comments about other female racers that aren't the usual shithead "back to the kitchen" type comments but are just as bad from the other direction, where people talk about a female racer like she's a child that won a Make-A-Wish lottery to race with the men for a day. "Women can't race" is only slightly worse than "Great job for a woman" upon coming home 19th. It sounds like a joke, but if you want your group to be taken seriously you can't have a party after a poor result. GIve credit where credit is due and always strive to improve. I respect her talent because it's clearly considerable, and this is another area IndyCar destroys F1 in. She's probably the best female driver IndyCar has ever produced but there have been times in the last few years when 1/5th of the IndyCar grid for a race has been female, and all of them were doing excellent work in cars without power steering (and cars that are considerably more dangerous than Formula 1 machines). I hope this all works out for her.

Edited by Andrew Hope, 08 May 2014 - 14:19.

Quit rap-sodizing and start the frickin' GP of Indy thread you slacker..

Jp

She actually scored more points than Kanaan in road and street courses. TK was way better in the ovals though, having of course Indy 500 victory as his highlight. Not surprising considering their relative experiences.

De Silvestro's F1 career in jeopardy as Sauber deal hits trouble.

De Silvestro then planned to work towards securing a race seat with Sauber for 2015, but the 90-day period in which her superlicence could be secured following her testing programme has now expired.

 

The contractual problems have also scuppered plans for Sauber to give de Silvestro her first taste of contemporary F1 machinery during free practice for next month's US Grand Prix at Austin, but the team says it still hopes to find a way to give the Swiss racer opportunities to drive again in the future.

They are. Women aren't being shut out of F1 or motorsport, they're being given plenty of opportunities. There simply aren't enough of them coming in yet.

Do you mean aren't enough therefore rich ones or talented ones? What context because I wouldn't be surprised if De Silvestro was pretty quick.

Management of De Silvestro should have their heads examined allowing this to happen, regardless of what 'this' is then all this initially should have been about was getting her in the darn car at an actual race meet, see her times in the car alongside one of the other Sauber drivers.

I wonder what the issue is. All the team seem to be saying is that it's a financial issue on Simona's side. Does that mean her sponsors haven't paid? How oftern have we recently seen a drivers career being messed with due to a sponsor(s)? Razia lost his drive last min with Marussia and Chilton was having probs the other week. Caterham seem to be playing driver bingo. Im sure Sauber have also meant to have drivers in, but there was a sponsor issue. I get that the teams sometimes have no choice, but I do feel sorry for drivers whose careers are in the hands of the money men.

I'm not surprised at all.

I wonder what the issue is. All the team seem to be saying is that it's a financial issue on Simona's side. Does that mean her sponsors haven't paid? How oftern have we recently seen a drivers career being messed with due to a sponsor(s)? Razia lost his drive last min with Marussia and Chilton was having probs the other week. Caterham seem to be playing driver bingo. Im sure Sauber have also meant to have drivers in, but there was a sponsor issue. I get that the teams sometimes have no choice, but I do feel sorry for drivers whose careers are in the hands of the money men.

Money / bank guarantee up front would fix that problem, is how my company deal with customers whom we have not yet decided to extend credit to. From the multiple and continued driver's sponsor did not pay stories, this is obviously not how the business model work in F1.

Too bad, I was really hoping this would happen.  I hope she can get back into an Indycar seat now and salvage her career.

Money / bank guarantee up front would fix that problem, is how my company deal with customers whom we have not yet decided to extend credit to. From the multiple and continued driver's sponsor did not pay stories, this is obviously not how the business model work in F1.

 

In F1, you have desperate teams who need money. The promise of riches tomorrow thus often trumps a meagre cheque right now, hence a preference for drivers with vague but substantial sponsorship rather than a driver with a small declared budget.

Of course, it works both ways. Teams have often overpromised (to the tune of running light in pretesting) to get a sponsor aboard who then finds out his cars are top 15 at best......

In F1, you have desperate teams who need money. The promise of riches tomorrow thus often trumps a meagre cheque right now, hence a preference for drivers with vague but substantial sponsorship rather than a driver with a small declared budget.

 

Of course, it works both ways. Teams have often overpromised (to the tune of running light in pretesting) to get a sponsor aboard who then finds out his cars are top 15 at best......

Yes to both, neither really should not be the way a team is run.

Total income   'x' less total expense 'Y' equal total profit / loss.

If continue to operate at a loss, your business model is flawed and you are heading at low or high speed towards closing your company, if company business model include 'presumed income' then your premise is fundamentally flawed, most likely setting yourself up to fail.

Known total income, less known total expense equal known total profit / loss.

The rumor mill have us believe that Caterham have spend Usd 350 million since inception, none of us know what their income was I am however certain that it does not equal Usd 350 million. The rumor mill have us believe Lotus to be in the hole to the tune of Usd 150 million, as a consequence of their expenses exceeding their income for the past 4 - 5 years. Extending expectations from last season to this season, I am convinced that Lotus did not included in their budget that the FOM payout would decrease by apprx. Usd 100 million. They should have budgeted a big zero, taken what ever they actually get and start getting their books in order. Which they are not, so they will flounder on wavering at the edge of financial ruin.

Sauber have gone form a well funded, well run team to be a non-funded well run team, they need to eek out every possible cent and like Lotus I am certain they did not see themselves losing tens of millions of FOM dollars. Poorly run teams in a poorly run series will make for a string of Simona stories, season after season, after season.

Yes to both, neither really should not be the way a team is run.

 

Poorly run teams in a poorly run series will make for a string of Simona stories, season after season, after season.

 

The only way you can blast sponsors is when they promise to pay and then... they don't. You are right, I have been following this sport for a loooong time, and there are always stories like. But is the Sauber-team poorly run? Or is just a team without money. Do certain drivers not get sponsorhip because of a poorly run series? That I don't believe.

I kind of hoped that Di Silvestro got a race-seat but I have to say that if I had a company, I would sponsor another driver. In the end, a drivers-career is always decided by talent/luck/money. The more you have of one or all of these commodities, the bigger the chance is you get a race-seat.

That is not sad, or an indictment of the series at all... just life.

The only way you can blast sponsors is when they promise to pay and then... they don't. You are right, I have been following this sport for a loooong time, and there are always stories like. But is the Sauber-team poorly run? Or is just a team without money. Do certain drivers not get sponsorhip because of a poorly run series? That I don't believe.

 

I kind of hoped that Di Silvestro got a race-seat but I have to say that if I had a company, I would sponsor another driver. In the end, a drivers-career is always decided by talent/luck/money. The more you have of one or all of these commodities, the bigger the chance is you get a race-seat.

 

That is not sad, or an indictment of the series at all... just life.

As I wrote I see Sauber as a well run team with no money. I think that certain drivers lose sponsorship for same reason teams does. That they live of promises rather than actuals, so the sponsor decode not to pay them, leadin to them not paying the team.

The odd, weird, confusing part for me is how 'less talented' drivers can secure sponsorship while 'more talented' can not.

I need to STRESS that not a single driver in F1 is not a very very very talented driver, we can however all see that some are less and some are more. Though the 'lessor' are rarely the ones getting the boot. case in point Kamui.

Simona to me is not a natural front runner, she may or may not be at F1 level, however until proven differently I would place her at Chilton level, which is 'good enough'.

If I were her sponsor I would look at it like this. Gutierrez has financial backing and sponsorship dollars. IIRC Carlos Slim has a minority stake in Sauber. Sirotkin's backers have a minority stake in Sauber. Where does Simona fit in that picture. There is little chance for a drive for her so why keep backing a false F1 hope. I do like Simona though and hope she takes Pagenaud's seat in IndyCar

She needed to get her name on an official timesheet, not glossed over simulator work and pounding around out of sight in a 2012 car. That was all the deal should have been about, she is known in the US, she is European, she was with a Ferrari engined team. Possibly Haas could have seen some benefit in her at least as 3rd driver while finding their feet?

Big opportunity missed.

I hear we may see her in a half decent seat if the 3rd car scenario comes into play.

Big if, I do not see the 3rd car stuff come alive in 2015.

But I have been wrong before.

Simona has parted ways with her manager.