Jean-Éric Vergne vs Daniil Kvyat 2014

What a magnificent run Daniil had today in qualifying.  He really takes to this track.  Hoping that he is able to make a statement tomorrow among the bigwigs on track  !

I'm sorry Vergne, but I'm calling a lineup of Kvyat and Sainz for next year.

 Great job by Kvyat again today, I'm so pleased he is doing well - I became a big fan last year in GP3 but worried it might by a year to early and 1 step to soon for F1 this year and just hoped Red Bull gave him a year without judging him to harshly to give him time to learn the ropes (I felt there was nothing wrong with moving him up early as long as they didn't expect too much) but wow, what a great job he is doing, showing he was certainly ready for F1. (and proving the teams know way more about this stuff than I do ).  Up to now he is the most impressive rookie (and this is coming from a McLaren fan desperately hoping Kevin is the next big thing). Hope he can keep up the form!

I don't know what to think about Jev - he has had some great performances this year (like in Canada) and seeing how well Daniel is doing reflects well on Jev as he wasn't that far away so he is probably as good as a lot of other drivers out there but I think his Red Bull future could be under threat with how well Sainz is doing this year in the junior formulae and if Red Bull want to move him up for next season.

Great show by Daniil!!

in the rain is when Vergne excells, I hope he can still find a seat next year because I doubt Toro Rosso will keep him although he is doing fine imho

Perhaps Vergne can still get a Red Bull seat if Vettel decides to move on next year. I believe that would be Vergne's only chance to stay in F1. With Lotus losing Renault, I doubt they still need a French driver there.

Vettel could move to Mclaren or Ferrari if Ricciardo keeps on beating him but in that case I think Red Bull will either sign Kvyat or Sainz Jr to partner Ricciardo.

Would be too early for Kvyat and Sainz, Red Bull are a bit conservative in their driver choice. So I would still expect Vergne then.

McLaren signed Hamilton directly from GP2 and they signed Magnussen directly from World Series by Renault so why could Red Bull not do the same with Sainz Jr.?

McLaren signed Hamilton directly from GP2 and they signed Magnussen directly from World Series by Renault so why could Red Bull not do the same with Sainz Jr.?

See my post above. Red Bull isn't McLaren, they are more conservative.

Would be too early for Kvyat and Sainz, Red Bull are a bit conservative in their driver choice. So I would still expect Vergne then.

I do not see any evidence to back up the claim they are conservative with their Toro Rosso driver choice. Kvyat was plucked from nowhere to most of us, and he has been a total revelation.

Red Bull have dumped many capable drivers from their system including Alguersuari and Buemi. JEV will be an even easier removal from their system given his susceptibility to be outpaced by Kvyat.

If Sainz wins the F3.5 title, I reckon Helmut Marko will be tempted to put him in the Toro Rosso before the end of the year.

Would be too early for Kvyat and Sainz, Red Bull are a bit conservative in their driver choice. So I would still expect Vergne then.

I don't think so. They have a track record of putting youngsters in both their cars. Alguersuari, Ricciardo twice considering this season's move, Kvyat himself and Sainz and the other junior drivers. They're also quick in ditching drivers out, Da Costa for example.

Besides, Kvyat has shown enough pace this season in almost matching the more experienced Vergne. Honestly, that's as good as rookie seasons go and Kvyat's only 20, so if anything, he's poised to even better Ricciardo.

They'd keep Vergne on in TR to serve as a benchmark for Sainz probably.

I do not see any evidence to back up the claim they are conservative with their Toro Rosso driver choice. Kvyat was plucked from nowhere to most of us, and he has been a total revelation.

 

Red Bull have dumped many capable drivers from their system including Alguersuari and Buemi. JEV will be an even easier removal from their system given his susceptibility to be outpaced by Kvyat.

 

If Sainz wins the F3.5 title, I reckon Helmut Marko will be tempted to put him in the Toro Rosso before the end of the year.

We weren't talking about a Toro Rosso drive, but a Red Bull drive.

Good job by JEV today. My stream froze at the end of Q2, could someone tell me what happened to Kvyat, as his car was on a truck ?

Good job by JEV today. My stream froze at the end of Q2, could someone tell me what happened to Kvyat, as his car was on a truck ?

Thanks man !

Brilliant drive by JEV today. Under wet conditions, he is a master. Zero mistake today 

Good job.

He is leading the league outside Merc engines// factory teams.

Vergne was outstanding today, he is always excellent on a wet or damp track.
I really hope he is still on the grid next year.

I would still take Vergne over Kvyat if seb left RB next year.

I think the fight between them both has been muddied somewhat this year by the extra weight Vergne has to carry.

At least noticed that Vergne was on track yesterday, so that was a plus.   The finishing position wasn't great but the racecraft and battling with Mercs was quite strong.

I would still take Vergne over Kvyat if seb left RB next year.

 

I think the fight between them both has been muddied somewhat this year by the extra weight Vergne has to carry.

Kvyat is the budding superstar, imo.  But I think a couple of years in STRF would be great, so I agree with JEV going up first if it were next year.  I don't think Seb is leaving in 2015 tho - I think he'll finish his contract, so I would say 2016 would be the open seat for Kvyat.  JEV - I don't know.  Buemi and Alguersauri had some great drives too, but nobody picked them up.

I would really like to see a team like williams poach Vergne.

I am disgusted for Vergne   On his three years in F1 he beat his teammate twice, and yet he seems always overlooked because he doesn't seem hype enough.

I am disgusted for Vergne   On his three years in F1 he beat his teammate twice, and yet he seems always overlooked because he doesn't seem hype enough.

Unfortunately for Vergne, his car has broken way too often. No one remembers what you could have achieved, they only remember the points you did bring home. Then there were times where the team screwed his chance for a big result (I think Monaco last year)

He's not been that great the past two years but he has been solid this year. If his car was reliable, he'd be sitting on a decent haul of points and I am sure more teams would have taken notice.

One thing in his favor is that he is French.  Like Charles Pic, any abandonment would not go unnoticed or unaddressed, so he has something to work for.

I hope Total and Renault will move their asses to find him a seat.

Too good not to be in F1. 

Would be a massive shame if this is the end for him.

He is not a buemi/alg

Sadly I think this is the end of F1 for JEV.

The major problem with being in the RB drivers programme is that you are wholly dependant on their sponsorship. Great on the way up, but if you become surplus to requirements then you are out in the cold money wise once the music stops.

I predicted this result for Vergne last year when Ricciardo was given the RB seat. Hopefully he's been working hard in the background since then to get some money behind him to stay in the sport, because none of the big teams are going to be knocking on his door. He'll need cash to buy a seat.

I'm hoping the success Ricciardo is enjoying at present (compared with his more credentialed team-mate) will cast JEV's abilities in a more favourable light.

During their time together Jean-Eric was often competitive and while I don't think he has Dan's ultimate speed, I believe he deserves a seat in F1 (and a good one at that).

I like to see him paired with a known-quantity in an upper-mid-field car, so we could accurately gauge the quality of the Red Bull driver programme.

If that were to happen and he performed well, it could open doors for other Red Bull junior drivers who "fall through the cracks".

I agree JEV would perform similarly to Dan in RBR, but what they are looking for is Sebastian II - a teen phenom that does something extraordinary in the lower formula like outscores his teammate by 8 times or wins a GP or whatever - apparently.   I am unsure why they are taking that approach.  Alguersauri and Buemi would have also done well in a top team, imo, but I suppose that is not enough; they want a star in STRF that makes everyone sit up and take notice.  Kvyat is doing that, but not to the degree Seb did yet.  However, I think the kid is capable of kicking up a storm, so let's see.  Meanwhile, next season will be tricky for Daniil and Max in that regard, especially if a seat is opening at Red Bull. 

The fact of the matter is though that they will never "find" another Vettel unless STR produces another car capable of fighting for podiums like it was when Vettel was at STR.

The only way Kyvat or Verstappen are getting into the big league is if Vettel leaves. Otherwise we'll be having this same discussion about the pair of them in two years. In fact one of them is definitely going to get the arse in 2 years, because there's only going to be one spot available in RB at most.

Edited by BCM, 19 August 2014 - 08:17.

I can see, why Red Bull pushes Vergne aside. He is decent, but not great, who would bring them glory. And Red Bull has plenty of young very talented drivers on their list, so plenty to choose from. They have really not much to do with Vergne at least in F1, though he could be useful for Red Bull in other series.

As for Vergne getting into other teams - again you either need budget (I don't think Red Bull would sponsor him in another team) or he needs to be reallly good to push someone else aside. For example I don't think Vergne is better than Grosjean to push his fellow countryman aside at Lotus. I am even unsure Vergne is attractive enough for Force India or Williams to push Perez or Massa aside, either of who probably brings more money than Vergne anyway. On talent alone Vergne could be a decent competitor for Sauber, Caterham or Marussia seats, but for that he probably needs money...

So that's it. Like Alguersuari - decent but not great enough to prolong an F1 career.

Edited by sopa, 19 August 2014 - 08:18.

The fact of the matter is though that they will never "find" another Vettel unless STR produces another car capable of fighting for podiums like it was when Vettel was at STR.
 
The only way Kyvat or Verstappen are getting into the big league is if Vettel leaves. Otherwise we'll be having this same discussion about the pair of them in two years. In fact one of them is definitely going to get the arse in 2 years, because there's only going to be one spot available in RB at most.

Vergne will suffer the same fate as Buemi and Alguersuari. After they got dumped, nobody rushed to give them another seat. 

He's been decent recently, but unfortunately that's not good enough. His only major highlight was Hungary this year. Otherwise I can't really remember him doing anything impressive over the course of 3 years. 

The fact of the matter is though that they will never "find" another Vettel unless STR produces another car capable of fighting for podiums like it was when Vettel was at STR.

The car wasn't capable of fighting for podiums.  But that is beside the point because RBR promoted Seb, prior to his win and without any podiums.  So when I say do something extraordinary, I mean in terms of the circumstances.  For Kvyat it will be his 2nd season, so the expectations will be higher than they will be for Max, making it a bit tougher, but I think he'll handle it.   The Max hype reminds me of the Mags hype, so let's see how he does when he arrives.  If he falls apart, his opportunities might be greatly reduced with teams figuring he needs more experience.

Vergne will suffer the same fate as Buemi and Alguersuari. After they got dumped, nobody rushed to give them another seat. 

 

He's been decent recently, but unfortunately that's not good enough. His only major highlight was Hungary this year. Otherwise I can't really remember him doing anything impressive over the course of 3 years. 

Finishing P6 in Canada last year on the dry.

Ahead of Raikkonen,Grosjean,Massa and nearly 1 lap ahead of Ricciardo.

Finishing P6 in Canada last year on the dry.

 

Ahead of Raikkonen,Grosjean,Massa and nearly 1 lap ahead of Ricciardo.

I think JEV has done enough to show he has talent if given better equipment, but again, RBR seems to want a teen phenom - they love what Vettel did, what Marquez is doing and I think they are under the impression that the younger guys will bring the explosive results.  Hopefully Total and Renault will come through for JEV.

I think JEV has done enough to show he has talent if given better equipment, but again, RBR seems to want a teen phenom - they love what Vettel did, what Marquez is doing and I think they are under the impression that the younger guys will bring the explosive results.  Hopefully Total and Renault will come through for JEV.

Well it's not like Vettel and Ricciardo haven't been worth every penny.

Well it's not like Vettel and Ricciardo haven't been worth every penny.

I don't think money is an issue at all.  It will cost RBR next to nothing to give Max the opportunity.  My point is that they are looking for explosive results out of the gate with this venture into ever younger drivers.  From the standpoint of their crazed search, all of the drivers they've had have been worth every penny.  Their methodology requires it.

Vergne will suffer the same fate as Buemi and Alguersuari. After they got dumped, nobody rushed to give them another seat. 

 

He's been decent recently, but unfortunately that's not good enough. His only major highlight was Hungary this year. Otherwise I can't really remember him doing anything impressive over the course of 3 years. 

There's more to motorsport life than F1. 

Although Alguersuari hasn't driven much lately (could be his decision as much as anyones) Red Bull continue to support several of their drivers even if they don't make it to F1. 

Buemi has been backed by Red Bull in sports car racing for instance. Da Costa didn't get a chance in F1 but he's racing in DTM instead with backing from Red Bull. So it's not like it's a terrible fate and no one was forced into the Red Bull programme. I would say that more or less all drivers involved in the Red Bull program over the years would not have progressed as far as they did in and outside F1 if they hadn't been part of the programme and had the Red Bull backing. 

IHopefully Total and Renault will come through for JEV.

 But where could Renault and Total get him a seat - Caterham??? (not sure thats an attractive offer, if they are even on the grid next year).

Vergne's best chance is to keep putting in great performances and hope someone else has a poor season which may lead to that team looking around for a replacement.

 But where could Renault and Total get him a seat - Caterham??? (not sure thats an attractive offer, if they are even on the grid next year).

Vergne's best chance is to keep putting in great performances and hope someone else has a poor season which may lead to that team looking around for a replacement.

Obviously Renault aren't supplying Lotus, but Total's deal is separate? If so then if Grosjean moves to a different team for next season, there could be a decent opportunity for him there.

 But where could Renault and Total get him a seat - Caterham??? (not sure thats an attractive offer, if they are even on the grid next year).

Vergne's best chance is to keep putting in great performances and hope someone else has a poor season which may lead to that team looking around for a replacement.

He could do sports cars.

He could do IndyCar.

He could do DTM.

He could do GT racing.

He could do Formula E and other single seater such as Super Formula.

All with some backing from Red Bull. 

There is more to motorsport than F1. 

In Hungary I saw Vergne talking with Gastaldi (Lotus Vice TP) at the Lotus motorhome in the paddock. It's not the first time this year I have seen them chatting. I would say a move to Lotus is on the cards but very much dependent on what Grosjean does.

There's more to motorsport life than F1. 

 

Although Alguersuari hasn't driven much lately (could be his decision as much as anyones) Red Bull continue to support several of their drivers even if they don't make it to F1. 

 

Buemi has been backed by Red Bull in sports car racing for instance. Da Costa didn't get a chance in F1 but he's racing in DTM instead with backing from Red Bull. So it's not like it's a terrible fate and no one was forced into the Red Bull programme. I would say that more or less all drivers involved in the Red Bull program over the years would not have progressed as far as they did in and outside F1 if they hadn't been part of the programme and had the Red Bull backing. 

It is true that they continue to support their drivers in other areas - but not always.  I think it depends on the terms of leaving.  They sponsor Seb B in racing and the upcoming Formula E, but Jaime is also doing Formula E and I don't think he has RBR sponsorship - although I may be mistaken.  Still, good point about being backed in other series so JEV's options may be quite broad.

In Hungary I saw Vergne talking with Gastaldi (Lotus Vice TP) at the Lotus motorhome in the paddock. It's not the first time this year I have seen them chatting. I would say a move to Lotus is on the cards but very much dependent on what Grosjean does.

Sounds hopeful.

Edited by bourbon, 19 August 2014 - 09:36.