Jean-Éric Vergne vs Daniil Kvyat 2014

I agree JEV would perform similarly to Dan in RBR, but what they are looking for is Sebastian II - a teen phenom that does something extraordinary in the lower formula like outscores his teammate by 8 times or wins a GP or whatever - apparently.   I am unsure why they are taking that approach.  Alguersauri and Buemi would have also done well in a top team, imo, but I suppose that is not enough; they want a star in STRF that makes everyone sit up and take notice.  Kvyat is doing that, but not to the degree Seb did yet.  However, I think the kid is capable of kicking up a storm, so let's see.  Meanwhile, next season will be tricky for Daniil and Max in that regard, especially if a seat is opening at Red Bull. 

I didn't say JEV "would perform similarly to Dan in RBR". He wouldn't.  He might be a step up on Vettel's performance so far this year though, so in that respect he could be a Seb "Mk II", - a better, improved version of the original.  

IMO...

I agree JEV would perform similarly to Dan in RBR, but what they are looking for is Sebastian II - a teen phenom that does something extraordinary in the lower formula like outscores his teammate by 8 times or wins a GP or whatever - apparently.   I am unsure why they are taking that approach.  Alguersauri and Buemi would have also done well in a top team, imo, but I suppose that is not enough; they want a star in STRF that makes everyone sit up and take notice.  Kvyat is doing that, but not to the degree Seb did yet.  However, I think the kid is capable of kicking up a storm, so let's see.  Meanwhile, next season will be tricky for Daniil and Max in that regard, especially if a seat is opening at Red Bull. 

Considering Ricciardo is beating Vettel, if Vergne performed as well as him I think RBR would be very interested.

Edited by Thomas99, 19 August 2014 - 09:42.

Let's get back on topic.  Vergne v. Kvyat 2014.

On topic, all Vergne can do now is try and show that his experience and talent can overshadow Kvyat - which is not going to be easy if his car keeps breaking down.  I believe Total and Renault would judge him fairly in that regard though and help him as they have other French drivers in the past.

_____

According to Daniil, despite his sensational start, he is still not feeling the formula and expects a more explosive 2nd half.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/115353

Edited by bourbon, 19 August 2014 - 10:37.

Or if Ricciardo leaves.

If Max impresses enough, he will find a seat somewhere. He isn't gonna just disappear because a Red Bull never opens up. I think there will be other teams tripping over themselves to sign him up.

We'll see. I'll believe the hype when I see him destroying Kyvat.

Let's get back on topic.  Vergne v. Kvyat 2014.
 
On topic, all Vergne can do now is try and show that his experience and talent can overshadow Kvyat - which is not going to be easy if his car keeps breaking down.  I believe Total and Renault would judge him fairly in that regard though and help him as they have other French drivers in the past.
 
 
_____
 

 
 
According to Daniil, despite his sensational start, he is still not feeling the formula and expects a more explosive 2nd half.
 
http://www.autosport...t.php/id/115353

I agree with the poster who said Vergne isn't "an Alguersuari or a Buemi" - even if those were capable of becoming decent journeymen midfielders. Vergne basically was in the same ballpark as Ricciardo, and we're seeing just how good Ricciardo is this season. Sure it's damning Vergne was deemed by Red Bull as a guy with less potential than 4 other drivers they'll have next season, but that still doesn't mean he can't be better than the majority of drivers lined up for the other F1 teams. In fact I think he is.

I'm starting to get a bit concerned that the Red Bull programme, whilst I don't disagree necessarily with their methods and think they've been pretty successful, is starting to cling on to all the talent and then cut off from F1 anyone who's capable of becoming a race winner, but just isn't a Senna. It's insane that the likely GP3 and WSR champions this season have now suddenly struck a F1 career dead end. You look at guys like Vergne, da Costa, Sainz Jr, Lynn, Gasly, maybe none of them would be champions but you'd still think a few of them could become solid upper-end F1 drivers with a lenghty career, and I think Vergne has already proved that. Exaggerating a bit, if this trend continues in the future, Red Bull could be signing up the 20 most talented young drivers in the world, using the 4 best of them in their 4 F1 seats, and leaving everyone else in the sport with useless donkeys peddling their wheels as only the 21st best driver onwards is available.

I hope Vergne can be an exception to the usual rule of Toro Rosso dropouts and manage to find a seat, he deserves it.

I agree with the poster who said Vergne isn't "an Alguersuari or a Buemi" - even if those were capable of becoming decent journeymen midfielders. Vergne basically was in the same ballpark as Ricciardo, and we're seeing just how good Ricciardo is this season. Sure it's damning Vergne was deemed by Red Bull as a guy with less potential than 4 other drivers they'll have next season, but that still doesn't mean he can't be better than the majority of drivers lined up for the other F1 teams. In fact I think he is.

 

I'm starting to get a bit concerned that the Red Bull programme, whilst I don't disagree necessarily with their methods and think they've been pretty successful, is starting to cling on to all the talent and then cut off from F1 anyone who's capable of becoming a race winner, but just isn't a Senna. It's insane that the likely GP3 and WSR champions this season have now suddenly struck a F1 career dead end. You look at guys like Vergne, da Costa, Sainz Jr, Lynn, Gasly, maybe none of them would be champions but you'd still think a few of them could become solid upper-end F1 drivers with a lenghty career, and I think Vergne has already proved that. Exaggerating a bit, if this trend continues in the future, Red Bull could be signing up the 20 most talented young drivers in the world, using the 4 best of them in their 4 F1 seats, and leaving everyone else in the sport with useless donkeys peddling their wheels as only the 21st best driver onwards is available.

 

I hope Vergne can be an exception to the usual rule of Toro Rosso dropouts and manage to find a seat, he deserves it.

Some good points.  You have to figure that the real diamonds in the rough will get seats elsewhere.  That is why JEV still has it all to play for the rest of this season, showing what he can do.  If he puts on a good showing, then it would be easier to find a home somewhere with the help of Total and/or Renault.  Even if it is as a third driver for a season.  Hulkenberg did that and made it back in, so that is another possibility. 

Vergne just needs to shine this season in and of himself - and independent of what his teammate does.  There are multiple measures that teams can look at and after the season, STRR will share his data with other teams I imagine.

Edited by bourbon, 19 August 2014 - 11:19.

 Exaggerating a bit, if this trend continues in the future, Red Bull could be signing up the 20 most talented young drivers in the world, using the 4 best of them in their 4 F1 seats, and leaving everyone else in the sport with useless donkeys peddling their wheels as only the 21st best driver onwards is available.

 

I think this is the aim of RB. Red Bull has a huge budget and they want to win in F1. Quite a significant amount of that budget they spend on developing talent and I think they are more determined to snatch up best drivers than any other junior programme. If Red Bull signs up 10 most talented drivers in the world, and then they support 4 of them, they have succeeded. Why is in in their interest that potentially the 6th best driver never gets an F1 drive?

I think this is a message to other junior programmes. To wake up and perhaps use some of those talents themselves. But then again who wants to develop a driver, who has already been dismissed as "not quite good enough"? McLaren would rather develop Magnussen and Vandoorne than these dismissed kids.

This is the nature of ruthless competition. Is Vergne really good enough to "deserve" signed up by another team? Is Sainz Jr not getting a go in F1 a tragedy? Throughout history we have seen talented drivers getting left aside, in a way this is something new. If you are just "good" there is a chance you never make F1. It may seem a tragedy, yet it is natural part of the game.

I think Vergne is getting slightly overrated right now due to the "drama" of him getting left without seat. He is good, but not that good. His qualifying was never special and to me he was not a match to Ricciardo. JEV's wet weather driving is very good, but then again Verstappen (Jos I mean) was also good in the wet and not rated that highly.

The only odd thing is that the former STR drivers are very young. Klien, Alguersuari, Buemi are still very young though they seem like veterans having had multiple seasons in F1 and now gone! But that's the modern nature of sport - aggressive junior programmes have pushed the average age down somewhat.

Allowing for a necessary level of speed and competence it is very difficult to properly assess a driver in F1 if he does not have a potentially race winning car.

If we consider Ricciardo's Torro Rosso career he was good at qualifying but not noticeably superior to his team mate in the races, with exception. Consider how embarrassed Vettel has been this season to find himself outraced and outqualified on too many occasions by a relative rookie, and this is the man who won 4 titles on the trot.

So how do you now rate SV, do you think that he just has not adapted his driving to the new formula, as has apparently affected Kimi, or is he being out performed in reality? F1 is far more dependent upon the car than the driver and has been for a long time, currently Mercedes Benz have a big advantage, but the rest of the 'front runners' are very close in peformance terms, with exception.

Only Alonso stands out as the driver who can make the difference between being stuck in midfield and finishing in the top half dozen despite the current Ferrari's obvious limitations.

I hope JEV finds a better berth for 2015, a period of less pressure and not being under threat of losing his drive would be welcome, I think he deserves it.

There is a thread created to discuss Vergne's prospects here:  http://forums.autosp...an-eric-vergne/

So we can focus here on Vergne v. Kvyat 2014. 

Edited by bourbon, 19 August 2014 - 12:15.

I think & hope he's got a drive at lotus next year.

I think gro is off to mclaren.

I agree with the poster who said Vergne isn't "an Alguersuari or a Buemi" - even if those were capable of becoming decent journeymen midfielders. Vergne basically was in the same ballpark as Ricciardo, and we're seeing just how good Ricciardo is this season. Sure it's damning Vergne was deemed by Red Bull as a guy with less potential than 4 other drivers they'll have next season, but that still doesn't mean he can't be better than the majority of drivers lined up for the other F1 teams. In fact I think he is.

 

I'm starting to get a bit concerned that the Red Bull programme, whilst I don't disagree necessarily with their methods and think they've been pretty successful, is starting to cling on to all the talent and then cut off from F1 anyone who's capable of becoming a race winner, but just isn't a Senna. It's insane that the likely GP3 and WSR champions this season have now suddenly struck a F1 career dead end. You look at guys like Vergne, da Costa, Sainz Jr, Lynn, Gasly, maybe none of them would be champions but you'd still think a few of them could become solid upper-end F1 drivers with a lenghty career, and I think Vergne has already proved that. Exaggerating a bit, if this trend continues in the future, Red Bull could be signing up the 20 most talented young drivers in the world, using the 4 best of them in their 4 F1 seats, and leaving everyone else in the sport with useless donkeys peddling their wheels as only the 21st best driver onwards is available.

 

I hope Vergne can be an exception to the usual rule of Toro Rosso dropouts and manage to find a seat, he deserves it.

Did they say he was necessarily less potential than the other 4? I'm not so sure Red Bull are implying that. What they're saying is they want to give the others a chance to show what they have. There is every chance Vergne could indeed be higher quality than both Kvyat and Verstappen.

Why you don't make this no more?

Why you don't make this no more?

Okie, will do for Russia in a couple of days.

So, JEV beat DK fair and square, 22/8.

Yet DK gets the RBR drive and JEV gets the boot.

I don't feel Vergne deserved to replace Vettel, but couldn't RBR really find someone more promising than Kvyat to put next to Dan? Do they want a clear #1 for 2015? Is it just politics/marketing? Or maybe Marko knows things about Kvyat I don't, like he's the real deal and we failed to see it next to JEV because he's a rookie/car didn't suit him/tyres didn't suit him/...?

To be fair to Daniil, he did beat JEV in quali. JEV's best result of 6th came during a mixed conditions race and without that its more like 14-8 when it comes to points. On top of that, his car failed to deliver when he qualified high at Russia and then he retired while in a decent points place at Abu Dhabi as well due to a car failure, so there's scope for more points for Kvyat.

For a rookie, thats a good track record really. Whether or not he can be champion material should be made clear next season, but I think he's done enough to play 2nd fiddle in a big team.

Have said it many times. I believe Marko and possibly Horner hold a grudge against Vergne. Why else would they promote Kvyat? He's been comprehensively beaten by Vergne this season. Vergne only needed to improve on his qualifying. His racecraft is among the best on the grid and I'll miss his fighting spirit.

Hopefully his deal with Williams will result in a race seat for 2016. I believe Massa will retire after 2015 or 2016 and Bottas will probably end up at Ferrari or Mercedes in 2016.

Kvyat drives like a Bottas, nothing spectacular. Imagine if we had 20 Bottas' or 20 Button's on the grid, how boring would that be?

I would have liked to have seen Vergne in the second RBR seat.  IMO he is the better racer compared to Kvyat.   Kvyat a great prospect for the future and he had a good rookie season but I feel he needs another year working on his race craft in TR without the pressure of racing for Red Bull.  JEV's second half of the season has been one of the highlights for me personally; some great fighting in the middle of the pack.  It's just a shame he only produced it when he was given the boot. If he started the season like this he may have got the second seat at RBR.

Have said it many times. I believe Marko and possibly Horner hold a grudge against Vergne. Why else would they promote Kvyat? He's been comprehensively beaten by Vergne this season. Vergne only needed to improve on his qualifying. His racecraft is among the best on the grid and I'll miss his fighting spirit.

 

Hopefully his deal with Williams will result in a race seat for 2016. I believe Massa will retire after 2015 or 2016 and Bottas will probably end up at Ferrari or Mercedes in 2016.

 

Kvyat drives like a Bottas, nothing spectacular. Imagine if we had 20 Bottas' or 20 Button's on the grid, how boring would that be?

I didn't know JEV has got a deal with Williams.  It's great to hear he is not entirely out of F1.

So, JEV beat DK fair and square, 22/8.

Yet DK gets the RBR drive and JEV gets the boot.

 

I don't feel Vergne deserved to replace Vettel, but couldn't RBR really find someone more promising than Kvyat to put next to Dan? Do they want a clear #1 for 2015? Is it just politics/marketing? Or maybe Marko knows things about Kvyat I don't, like he's the real deal and we failed to see it next to JEV because he's a rookie/car didn't suit him/tyres didn't suit him/...?

Its one of those great mysteries in F1. One driver does comparatively well against another, one gets promoted, is even hailed as one of the best, while the other's career is basically finished. Same thing happened to Heidfeld with Raikkonen. He beat Raikkonen, Raikkonen gets promoted and Heidfeld stays where he is. Raikkonen almost wins the title in 2003, hailed as one of the best by the end of the year, while Heidfeld gets sacked by Sauber and barely gets a seat in 2004. Dan is hailed as the best driver this year in some circles yet Vergne, who did well against him, doesn't have a seat in 2015. Really ****ing bizzare ****.

Kvyat out qualified Vergne in his rookie season. In the races he was up there racing with the McLarens and Ferraris on same strategies rather than during some safety car/fresh tyre lottery. That's why Red Bull signed him. Vestappen fan club really have it in for Kvyat for some reason.

Vergne deserves to be in F1 for sure, it is frustrating that drivers like him and even more so Button will not be in F1 next year.  But Kvyat has more potential I think, coming up from GP3 straight into F1 and doing so well is impressive.  Being so young and inexperienced yet still showing flashes of brilliance is enough for RedBull to take a chance on Kyvat.  Vergne as good as he is, will not compete with the likes of Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel but Kyvat might.

I wonder if he will join Williams as a TD as has been rumoured. It would be a good move for him with Massa surely not likely to be there beyond the next few years. If Williams continue to strengthen then they won't need a pay driver. 

I think Red Bull have made the right decision though. Given the purpose of owning the STR team they should only take drivers into STR that they believe could one day make it to the top team, and they are beyond that point with JEV. Carlos Sainz Jnr is an exciting prospect in his own right. 

JEV had many limitations. Whilst occasionally showing a flash of superb pace in the wet, he was slow in qualifying, lacked the consistency of Ricciardo, tended to cave when put under serious pressure, and was limited in his technical feedback (according to ex-STR designer Furbato). The points difference between Vergne and Kyvat this year is very flattering for JEV, Kyvat had so much bad luck and non finishes.  

 Kyvat had so much bad luck and non finishes.  

Except for the fact that they both had exactly the same number of retirements. Helmot Merko has a huge crush on Kyvat, which is the only reason why he got the seat over JeV.

Except for the fact that they both had exactly the same number of retirements. Helmot Merko has a huge crush on Kyvat, which is the only reason why he got the seat over JeV.

I think that is what people are forgetting. JEV had horrid luck, especially at the beginning of the season, but towards the end he has really nailed it. I think they should have given Kvyat another year at TR but I guess next year will be the acid test. If he goes into RB and does very well then obviously the right decision was made, if he goes to RB and struggles Helmut Marko in particular will have egg on his face. Logically I think most people assumed that JEV would get the RB seat once it was announced that Seb was leaving. I know people have questioned his work ethic but surely TR would not have kept him on for 3 seasons if he really was that lazy so I don't know why they didn't at least give him one season at RB to see what he could do.

I hope we see him in F1 in the future, if not I hope he finds success wherever he decides to go.

Kvyat out qualified Vergne in his rookie season. In the races he was up there racing with the McLarens and Ferraris on same strategies rather than during some safety car/fresh tyre lottery. That's why Red Bull signed him. Vestappen fan club really have it in for Kvyat for some reason.

Really? Did I miss something? I usually saw him falling back heavily after a good qualifying. Never seen him battling a McLaren or Ferrari.

I wouldn't have hired him in the first place. Didn't his teammate beat him to the title twice in the lower formula?

A lot of people seem to have forgotten the whole point of TR, why Vergne got as long as he did is a mystery to me.

If you'd dropped Vergne before now you'd probably have had to drop Ricciardo (who was actually slightly more experienced) as well. Until well into 2013 they were competing for the Red Bull seat.

I wouldn't have hired him in the first place. Didn't his teammate beat him to the title twice in the lower formula?

I remember he was narrowly beaten by Robert Wickens in Formula Renault 3.5. But then Michael Schumacher was narrowly beaten by his teammates Karl Wendlinger and Heinz-Harald Frentzen.

Edited by santori, 27 November 2014 - 10:21.

Except for the fact that they both had exactly the same number of retirements. Helmot Merko has a huge crush on Kyvat, which is the only reason why he got the seat over JeV.

Well Marko is the one that chose both Ricciardo & Vettel so if he has a 'huge crush' on Kvyat, chances are he is very good & the better of the two.

Edited by lbennie, 27 November 2014 - 11:09.

I wouldn't have hired him in the first place. Didn't his teammate beat him to the title twice in the lower formula?

Umm, no?

Wickens beat him to the FR3.5 title as team-mates yes, but by the slightest of points margin (it was a draw, really), and Wickens had considerably more experience by that point. And Wickens is a very good driver in his own right.

Can't find any other occasion he was beaten by a team-mate to the title. Maybe you're thinking of the previous FR3.5 season, when Ricciardo came 2nd and Vergne 8th both for Carlin, but Vergne did less than half of the races...

https://www.driverdb...an-eric-vergne/

Vergne interested in Indycar:

www.racer.com/f1/item/111337-f1-jean-eric-vergne-eyes-indycar-switch

I have a feeling this will be close soon as both are going to pastures new, one going to Red Bull the other going to USA

A shame that we're losing Vergne. If he goes to IndyCar I'm 99% sure he'll be champion.

A shame that we're losing Vergne. If he goes to IndyCar I'm 99% sure he'll be champion.

I'm 98% sure that he won't.

I think JEV did enough to earn a spot on the grid, it's a shame if he's forced to leave.

Although his qualifying speed is perhaps slightly lacking his race pace is as good as anyone on the grid.

I'm 98% sure that he won't.

I'm 97% sure that I'm not sure.

I remember he was narrowly beaten by Robert Wickens in Formula Renault 3.5. But then Michael Schumacher was narrowly beaten by his teammates Karl Wendlinger and Heinz-Harald Frentzen.

Schumacher and HHF finished 1 point behind KW, iirc, in German F3, but KW already raced in 87 season while MSC and HHF were rookies in the 88 season.

Also, KW and HHF were not MSC teammates, they all raced for different teams and KW used a different chassis and engine.

JEV is a good racer but Kvyat have more speed and that's what RB are looking for.
 

22 - 8. Pretty damning for Kvyat. I suspect he is a placeholder for Max or Sainz.

 
   

Kvyat had a lot of mechanical problems, he was much faster than Vergne

 
   

Kvyat had a lot of mechanical problems, he was much faster than Vergne

No he wasn't, only on Saturday yes, but Sunday counts.

Schumacher and HHF finished 1 point behind KW, iirc, in German F3, but KW already raced in 87 season while MSC and HHF were rookies in the 88 season.

 

Also, KW and HHF were not MSC teammates, they all raced for different teams and KW used a different chassis and engine.

 

 

*slaps forehead* Yes, of course they weren't team-mates then. Di Resta beating Vettel one year, then. Wickens was also a year older, with more experience of the category.

 
   

Kvyat had a lot of mechanical problems, he was much faster than Vergne

Did he have more technical problems than Vergne? It's true that Kvyat's qualifying looked more promising than JEV's but in the races it was more often the opposite.

JEV was dealt a tough hand because he was surely expected to beat Kvyat, given their relative levels of experience, and he achieved that. But take Spa and Russia qualification in which Kvyat beat JEV by 0.5 and 0.8 respectively, one in the wet on a traditional circuit, the other in the dry on a contemporary one. This is a guy who has just turned 20 and made a jump from GP3 in the "no testing" era. How is JEV supposed to demand a Red Bull seat on this basis?

It's not about Vergne demanding a Red Bull seat, it's about whether or not Kvyat deserves that seat. Based on what he has shown this season, I'd say no. Like someone here said, I think Kvyat is a mere placeholder for either Sainz or Verstappen in a year or two.

I'm 98% sure that he won't.

I'm 100% sure one of you is right. 

I suspect he is a placeholder for Max or Sainz.

I think Kvyat is a mere placeholder for either Sainz or Verstappen in a year or two.

Kvyat totally destroyed Sainz jr

http://en.wikipedia....27_championship

 
Kvyat totally destroyed Sainz jr

Sainz > Kvyat in both FR2.0 NEC and Eurocup. What is the point of this argument anyway? Lower formula results won't matter much once the 2015 season starts.

Couldn't agree more. F1 is a big step up in difficulty, not just from a technical point of view of driving the car, but the pressure to deliver as well. There are many examples of competitive drivers in lower categories failing to keep up so well when they move up to F1. Plus there are still differences between teams in the lower formulas, the same as F1.

To make an analogy with something else, I might be as good as Dr Stephen Hawking at mental arithmetic, but I know he would have me beat on anything beyond a simple equation.