Live Timing: Lack of provision for desktops

Most people do have smartphones and/or tablets now, so the group of fans that don't have to opportunity to buy the mobile apps is probably negligible. That's trying to look at it from FOM's perspective, i'm not happy with that situation either.

The viewing experience on a smarthphone is horrendous.

This should be primarily a Desktop or Tablet app.

Also, there are still many people without a tablet or smartphone. And to think that Bernie wants to race in Azerbaijan. Oh, and what about India?

Edited by Timstr11, 15 March 2014 - 09:47.

Live timing in an ancient java box with or without split times? 

What year is this?

i want live streaming with camera angles of my choice AND timing.

Is this sport run by some very old people?

So we all should buy a smartphone? Internet is not enough anymore? I use a basic phone that costs Rs. 600. My understanding was a phone is for talking and my phone serves that purpose. Why am I expected to have external gizmos like facebook, whatsapp, videogame app, porn-mms app in a device I just need for talking? Do I have to buy an extra device that is 20 times more expensive just for live sector times. Saddist baxxxxds!

So I've seen a screenshot of pay-version of LT - looks like there's less features than in free LT for Nascar or Indycar. In fact there's almost nothing. So I don't get how anyone could support this crap.

So I've seen a screenshot of pay-version of LT - looks like there's less features than in free LT for Nascar or Indycar. In fact there's almost nothing. So I don't get how anyone could support this crap.

You've seen a static screenshot of a multi-pane app and you're qualified to make this judgement? Amazing! Did you for instance notice from the screenshot, that you can select a driver and follow their GPS signal round the track and see their speed and selected gear in real time?

Yes, the crappy Java sector time display applet was free, and it wasn't developed at all for 10 or so years. On the other hand, there's been new features introduced on the paid app for every new season, which I'm expecting to accelerate now after folks are driven from the free applet to the paid app. If you don't like the app, you're free not to buy it. I would actually prefer to get the video and audio feeds into the app as well. Now I have to pay for a TV channel package I don't watch at all apart from F1, just to get live coverage.

The viewing experience on a smarthphone is horrendous.

This should be primarily a Desktop or Tablet app.

 

Also, there are still many people without a tablet or smartphone. And to think that Bernie wants to race in Azerbaijan. Oh, and what about India?

It is primarily a tablet app.

Yes, there are many people without. There are also many people who don't even have a computer. Or internet access. But all those people are simply not that relevant for FOM.

It is primarily a tablet app.

 

Yes, there are many people without. There are also many people who don't even have a computer. Or internet access. But all those people are simply not that relevant for FOM.

Yeah, many people also don't watch F1. What's your point?

Yeah, many people also don't watch F1. What's your point?

What was yours? FOM think they won't lose viewers with their 'incentive' to buy the mobile app and they're probably right. So for them, they're only gaining a few more paying members for their Nigerian Livetiming Club. Why should they care about a moaning minority? In time, they will maybe offer some sort of membership with paid timing on their website like there seems to be for MotoGP to milk the rest of their audience, but at the moment, they obviously couldn't care less.

Just to reiterate: I'm unhappy with this situation as well. I don't think it was necessary to cut sector times on the free LT just to get people to buy their new app. I think LT is such a basic, important and cheap feature for a racing series that it should always be free and widely available. But i also see all the people on these threads who are happy to throw their money at FOM and i kinda understand their reasoning.

Edited by dau, 15 March 2014 - 10:36.

I haven't checked lately, so they removed the sector times from formula1.com?

that's insane, remove something which was free for so many years and makes basically no cost difference for them and make you pay for it...  great move

whoever wanted the "app" could justify with the other stuff, no need for such a move.

I hate being forced to use apps for things I can do perfectly using a web browser, even on my android tablet.

If you have to pay for the tv coverage in the first place then I don't see too much wrong with demanding payment for extra information tbh. It's all part of the same approach to content surely?

What was yours? FOM think they won't lose viewers with their 'incentive' to buy the mobile app and they're probably right. So for them, they're only gaining a few more paying members for their Nigerian Livetiming Club. Why should they care about a moaning minority? In time, they will maybe offer some sort of membership with paid timing on their website like there seems to be for MotoGP to milk the rest of their audience, but at the moment, they obviously couldn't care less.

 

Just to reiterate: I'm unhappy with this situation as well. I don't think it was necessary to cut sector times on the free LT just to get people to buy their new app. I think LT is such a basic, important and cheap feature for a racing series that it should always be free and widely available. But i also see all the people on these threads who are happy to throw their money at FOM and i kinda understand their reasoning.

That it is a senseless decision to not provide any option for sector times for computer. 

F1 is doing well not because of these bigots, but in spite of these bigots. Moves like this are short-sighted and narrow-minded and would only have negative effects in future. Organizations that do much better at marketing and outreach like NBA and NASCAR would never do ill-thought moves like this. Effing bafoons..

You've seen a static screenshot of a multi-pane app and you're qualified to make this judgement? Amazing! Did you for instance notice from the screenshot, that you can select a driver and follow their GPS signal round the track and see their speed and selected gear in real time?

 

Yes, the crappy Java sector time display applet was free, and it wasn't developed at all for 10 or so years. On the other hand, there's been new features introduced on the paid app for every new season, which I'm expecting to accelerate now after folks are driven from the free applet to the paid app. If you don't like the app, you're free not to buy it. I would actually prefer to get the video and audio feeds into the app as well. Now I have to pay for a TV channel package I don't watch at all apart from F1, just to get live coverage.

Following GPS signal of a driver? Did they fix that? Or do they still use previous lap sector times data? And this is the huge innovation? Please, NASCAR and Indycars had it for years for free.

What was yours? FOM think they won't lose viewers with their 'incentive' to buy the mobile app and they're probably right. So for them, they're only gaining a few more paying members for their Nigerian Livetiming Club. Why should they care about a moaning minority? In time, they will maybe offer some sort of membership with paid timing on their website like there seems to be for MotoGP to milk the rest of their audience, but at the moment, they obviously couldn't care less.

 

Just to reiterate: I'm unhappy with this situation as well. I don't think it was necessary to cut sector times on the free LT just to get people to buy their new app. I think LT is such a basic, important and cheap feature for a racing series that it should always be free and widely available. But i also see all the people on these threads who are happy to throw their money at FOM and i kinda understand their reasoning.

So they said about PayTV and the numbers have been plummeting ever since...

Anyway...

So if I want to have a remotely reliable live timing experience I better buy something with iOS becasue the android version has jsut crap reliability and battery life, would that be correct?

It is primarily a tablet app.

 

Yes, there are many people without. There are also many people who don't even have a computer. Or internet access. But all those people are simply not that relevant for FOM.

Why are you excluding PCs (Desktops/Laptops)? I'm curious.

The reason FOM refuses to invest in PC support is due to fear of piracy, which would prevent them from monetizing LT data.. Fear of people porting the LT data for others to use freely, which has been happening over the years.

But in terms of user experience, it's best on a large screen and I'd expect that to include the by far most widely used format, namely the PC.

Edited by Timstr11, 15 March 2014 - 12:15.

Following GPS signal of a driver? Did they fix that? Or do they still use previous lap sector times data?

And this is the huge innovation? Please, NASCAR and Indycars had it for years for free.

I feel I got my money's worth with the Live Timing app on the iPad.  (On the Android smartphone, not so much.)   But with the iPad, it works great, looks great, there is room to use it to full capacity and it gives a wealth of information. 

I think once they optimize the apps for all devices, it will be great.  For those with devices - it is only 7 pounds/ 10 bucks, which is pretty cheap. 

I agree they need to figure something out for those without devices because LT is a major selling point for some.

If you have to pay for the tv coverage in the first place then I don't see too much wrong with demanding payment for extra information tbh. It's all part of the same approach to content surely?

Except the laptop I use can not be used for their new app. They have cut a sizable chunk of their coverage and made it a payable one at that. How can that be smart business at a time when they bemoan lag of F1 interest? Being who I am, I would grudingly buy the app for my Laptop, but I am not going to buy a tablet I do not need in order to get sector times.

Android App is great but Battery Monster. It drains battery like hell on my G2, and G2 is battery king of all smartphones.

Not my case, about 30-40 % loss of battery during Q, that´s normal

Bernie & his cohorts earn more than enough from fans, just another nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned - They seem, every year, to make watching F1 a less pleasurable experience.

Incidentally, over the years, I must have sent dozens of emails to the contact address given in Live Timing, have yet to receive a reply - They really don't give a **** about we fans.

Edited by Bloggsworth, 15 March 2014 - 13:55.

ITT: People want free stuff.

Although I do sympathise; its not like F1 needs the cash.

They have an email ID for query related to live timing. I have emailed them.  Let me see if if they have the conviction to respond and if so I would see how they explain their way out. 

Just bombard them with emails if you want. The id is livetiming@formula1.com

As the Java applet seemed to remain the same over many years, it's not very surprising nobody was reading the support email address anymore. The folks behind the live timing app can be reached in Twitter with handle @f1timingapp. They are quite active during at least during race weekends.

Those people who say paying for something that was previously free and how that represents great value because, like, you know, you have to pay for it, innit. 

Neil

Edited by Option1, 15 March 2014 - 14:44.

The folks behind the live timing app can be reached in Twitter with handle @f1timingapp.

Cool, somewhere to let our displeasure at these moronic pirates be known.

Neil

ITT: People want free stuff.

 

Although I do sympathise; its not like F1 needs the cash.

Free stuff, that costs nothing to make. This is just typical of the "Nigerian" mentality ruining tech products.

As the Java applet seemed to remain the same over many years, it's not very surprising nobody was reading the support email address anymore.

But they have developed it now. They have spent money actively making it worse.

And yes, I bloody well want free things. I pay a not insignificant amount of money for TV coverage - a large chunk of that goes into FOM pockets and now they've used that to destroyed a basic, but working feature? In what way is that a good thing for me?

Those people who say paying for something that was previously free and how that represents great value because, like, you know, you have to pay for it, innit.

The app offers much more than just laptimes and splits. If it was just an iOS port of the age old Java applet I'd be unhappy too. You can see sector speed trap figures, current tyres and history (and how many laps they've done), gaps, car locations around the track, you get commentary, replays (super handy if you've been away and recorded the session on a DVR). This year you can also follow a selected driver's gear, RPM and speed throughout a lap and compare drivers through a couple of selected corners per track (entry and apex speed). The new audio stuff is also exciting, but it seems a bit spotty for now.

It used to be a premium app (i.e. not a free download, but bought before installation), but now the season pass is an in-app-purchase. There's free functionality in the app, which doesn't include the splits. I can see the logic in removing the splits from the Java applet too to make the free offering homogenous across platforms. If I was managing the business, I would've probably done the same thing.

I can also understand why people, who were not paying anything for the data service, are pissed off. I can't understand, why this is a surprise to anyone. Sports content is all going to be sold as services in the Internet. For FOM, this means business model change from B2B (selling to TV stations) to B2C. They have to start somewhere while being careful not to lose their existing revenue stream while completely changing the business model. I think the data application is a logical place to being this process. As an F1 enthusiast, I can't wait to be offered all the video & audio feeds as well as the data stream in a tablet app. If I want a bigger screen, I can use AirPlay to beam the tablet screen to my TV.

Edited by tormave, 15 March 2014 - 15:26.

The app offers much more than just laptimes and splits. If it was just an iOS port of the age old Java applet I'd be upset too.

You illustrate my point absolutely perfectly!  They removed the free access to sector times on a website, and replaced it with something that you have to pay for and not everyone can get even if they're stupid enough to pay for it. 

Neil

The real question is why is the current service on the F1 site still called Live Timing? All it does is logs drivers best lap time, ergo it should be called Fastest Lap Logger, or whatever...

The real question is why is the current service on the F1 site still called Live Timing? All it does is logs drivers best lap time, ergo it should be called Fastest Lap Logger, or whatever...

Yeah, they should change it to live lap-timing or live indicator! You know the cool bubble indicators!

It's fine that they are charging money for sector times, but why exclude the most widespread platform that is Windows? 

Having it run on your 15" or bigger laptop/desktop screen surely is a better experience than a 10" tablet?

And what about the increasing number of people who prefer windows tablets instead of Android and IOS?

It's fine that they are charging money for sector times, but why exclude the most widespread platform that is Windows? 

 

Having it run on your 15" or bigger laptop/desktop screen surely is a better experience than a 10" tablet?

 

And what about the increasing number of people who prefer windows tablets instead of Android and IOS?

Increasing from 1% to 3%, yea. 

There's probably going to be a WP app sometime in the future. And i expect them to charge for premium website access including full livetiming at some point, but that could take a few seasons. They'll be busy for a while counting their money and that money bin isn't going to build itself.

Edited by dau, 15 March 2014 - 15:29.

Why are you excluding PCs (Desktops/Laptops)? I'm curious.

 

The reason FOM refuses to invest in PC support is due to fear of piracy, which would prevent them from monetizing LT data.. Fear of people porting the LT data for others to use freely, which has been happening over the years.

 

But in terms of user experience, it's best on a large screen and I'd expect that to include the by far most widely used format, namely the PC.

ROFL! Believe me, it will be in the torrents before Malaysia. They're just stupid, like incredibly stupid. F1.com used to attract 100's thousands of viewers during weekends, may be even millions, but it won't anymore.
It's absolutely no coincidence that a regional motor sport popular amongst the poorest is having much bigger revenues from TV, sponsors and events.

Dear Autosport, what are the chances of someone doing a proper critique of this move?  Or are you too in hock to getting press passes from the cretins that own the sport?

paying for LT is double dipping by Bernie.   I thought I was already paying for this sh*t through two other ways in any case;

1) my subscription fees to the cable monopoly

2) putting up with TV ads during the action 

Their Android app could have been more stable if they commissioned the work to a local high school.  They are doing everything they can to piss their core supporters off... and in my case they are succeeding -- such a turn off, and from a bigger picture economics perspective it is a stupid decision on their part to nickle and dime the very people who are the core supporters.   My interest in F1 probably influenced at least 15-20 people to follow F1 (friends and family) but 80% of them, while enjoying it, are not hard core enough to use live timing on a regular basis.    This is the very group of followers you do not want to mess with as they do have a propagation multiplier.    what's next --  force the fans to buy an FIA spec viewership control unit to plug into your home router? 

ffing Luddite F1 management that has zero respect to their fan base     

Falling-in-line media is another biggest problem in F1. There is nobody to criticize or question what FIA and FOM do. It is basically an authoritarian system. It is such a sinful system when it comes to evaluating some foreign governance, but not so much when it happens in the organizations rooted in the developed world. They are as crooked as the corrupt systems other parts of the world.

Increasing from 1% to 3%, yea. 

 

There's probably going to be a WP app sometime in the future. And i expect them to charge for premium website access including full livetiming at some point, but that could take a few seasons. They'll be busy for a while counting their money and that money bin isn't going to build itself.

That's a 200% increase!

But that's only the tablets or phones (which are even worse for LT), what about all the laptops and desktops?

But yes, windows tablets have been very bad because the semiconductor technology havent been good enough to be put in a tablet form. But with Intels latest generation of Bay Trail atom CPUs, its heading in the right direction. You can now get a proper Windows 8.1 tablet with competitive CPU power and battery time in a small 8" tablet. We will see in a few years how it turns out.

Personally I think having a full Windows computer in a small tablet form is much better than having Android or IOS, and I have had and still use an Iphone since my first 3GS. I also am using a Samsung S2 and Asus TF700 Android tablet (Which is sh.t despite the hefty price) but my Asus T100 windows tablet can be used for so more.

Edited by Arn, 15 March 2014 - 15:51.

Falling-in-line media is another biggest problem in F1. There is nobody to criticize or question what FIA and FOM do. It is basically an authoritarian system. It is such a sinful system when it comes to evaluating some foreign governance, but not so much when it happens in the organizations rooted in the developed world. They are as crooked as the corrupt systems other parts of the world.

Yep, it's follow the leader or you'll end up over board management system. I'm considering stopping wasting my time with F1, the technology and racing in GTs and prototypes isn't worse. They're just slower and many great drivers without budget end up there, certainly better than Chiltons or Maldonados, so the quality isn't bad at all.

Double points in Abu Dhabi and now no sector times in desktop LT. What will the next thing be when all they think about is short term profit?

They are definately not getting anything from me, and I have a 100 euro MotoGP subscription for the third year running.

I am hoping for a torrent solution soon!

Like some mentioned, Live Timing used to be a great incentive for people to watch races live and therefore see the commercials run during the live air.

Forcing people to buy an electronic device to continue using it is kind of a silly business move.  I doubt you will have people running to the Apple store to purchase a $$$ device, so they can buy a $10 app.

So Formula 1 has managed to cut his live TV viewers by a good margin.

The android version of this app is a clusterfu$%.  50 megs of cluttery garbage.

I look forward to watch the recorded race tomorrow.

The app offers much more than just laptimes and splits. If it was just an iOS port of the age old Java applet I'd be unhappy too. You can see sector speed trap figures, current tyres and history (and how many laps they've done), gaps, car locations around the track, you get commentary, replays (super handy if you've been away and recorded the session on a DVR). This year you can also follow a selected driver's gear, RPM and speed throughout a lap and compare drivers through a couple of selected corners per track (entry and apex speed). The new audio stuff is also exciting, but it seems a bit spotty for now.

 

It used to be a premium app (i.e. not a free download, but bought before installation), but now the season pass is an in-app-purchase. There's free functionality in the app, which doesn't include the splits. I can see the logic in removing the splits from the Java applet too to make the free offering homogenous across platforms. If I was managing the business, I would've probably done the same thing.

 

I can also understand why people, who were not paying anything for the data service, are pissed off. I can't understand, why this is a surprise to anyone. Sports content is all going to be sold as services in the Internet. For FOM, this means business model change from B2B (selling to TV stations) to B2C. They have to start somewhere while being careful not to lose their existing revenue stream while completely changing the business model. I think the data application is a logical place to being this process. As an F1 enthusiast, I can't wait to be offered all the video & audio feeds as well as the data stream in a tablet app. If I want a bigger screen, I can use AirPlay to beam the tablet screen to my TV.

I don't think anyone is expressing surprise on this board. Regarding in-app purchases, the business model is exploitation pure and simple. You can thank the commuter zombies playing Candy Crush Saga for this one. Everyone from the top down wants their share. "Fantastic value" is a view as short-term as this cash grab represents. "I can't wait to be offered" reads to me like "I can't wait to be drip-fed content on their terms." The best thing anyone can do is stop rewarding providers for crippling content. It has completely bastardised gaming on mobile devices:

Here's another review of that "game". Literally every part of it is a complete scam, including the rating system.

 

 

Edited by Disgrace, 15 March 2014 - 16:43.

The app offers much more than just laptimes and splits.

Sports content is all going to be sold as services in the Internet. [...] I think the data application is a logical place to being this process.

It is not about being free or not. I would pay for the premium membership if I could follow the session from my desktop / laptop as before.

I really don't understand why would they force me to use a phone to follow the sector times, but it seems stupid. 

Anyone knows the reason why can't we have the same premium features via desktop / laptop?

Their thinking is archaic, and probably are clueless about the way internet ads or click through rev sharing or generation works.   I'll bet my bottom dollar that instead of selling it, they could have made 10 x more revenue from all forms of live timing (smart / mobile devices, PCs on all operating systems...) by simply placing a well behaving ad window on the interface.  Heck... with a single phone call to Google / Apple / MS they could have them design and market it even to Martians and make even more $... 

the problem is Bernie, his cronies, and - I am guessing -- some of the PR/Ad consultants are from the pre-internet era -- they are not even realizing that they are only hurting themselves... 

The real question is why is the current service on the F1 site still called Live Timing? All it does is logs drivers best lap time, ergo it should be called Fastest Lap Logger, or whatever...

Indeed. Even the goddamn slow Live coverage webpage of the BBC will provide faster info on laptimes, or at least more accurate. 

And yet, they didn't think anyone would pay for it unless they crippled the desktop LT. That reveals the true value of the app and what FOM themselves think.


Name one racing series that charge money for sector times. Name one SPORT that charges money for equivalent data, for instance who scored the latest goal.

What I think is that when the global entertainment content keeps increasing at an enormous rate and the competition for peoples money get fiercer every year, providers will be forced to 1) lower prices 2) increase the value for money. FOM going in the other direction is yet again one instance where F1 is shooting itself in the foot. The global movement towards pay TV, hunting F1 videos on youtube, abandoning FOTA and now this are all small steps towards making the F1 experience (and I'm not even talking about the sport itself!) more and more **** for every year. They are playing the fiddle while Rome burns and you can simply look at the glaring lack of sponsorship on the cars to confirm this. F1 is turning less and less attractive every year and last years drop in TV viewers is another indication. Making F1 yet again less accessible, removing such a simple basic feature, isn't something that will turn that tide. It smells of trying to squeeze the last penny from those who still hasn't been alienated.

Case in point: I used to get up at night to watch FP 1,2,3 and Q3, but last night I didnt even bother. I wonder how my experience will be during the race, when were really at the mercy of the commentators. I wonder if im satisfied enough with pre-2000 coverage. Even if this was the best app in a million years, i simply do not want to watch sector times on a small screen format like a phone or a tablet. The crippling of the website app also makes me a bit angry. I feel the day I stop caring about F1 is coming closer and closer.

Edited by 0Fritz, 15 March 2014 - 17:32.

Regarding in-app purchases, the business model is exploitation pure and simple.

Disagree. The previous live timing app was a premium app one had to buy a new version of every year. The new one is an app, where each season subscription is an in-app-purchase. This is more convenient than a de-install + install. As an upside the timing without splits is now available for free and the IAP cost is much lower than the previous price of the app, most likely to attract more users in. There's nothing wrong with the IAP mechanism as such, even though some popular games have learnt to exploit it.

Anyone knows the reason why can't we have the same premium features via desktop / laptop?

Someone would hack such a PC implementation in no time. It will most likely happen rather quickly with Android too, mind. Furthermore, in Android everyone uses DRM and payment solution from Google. On iOS, the one from Apple. In PC, well, Flash? Windows DRM? Silverlight? All is broken.

Disagree. The previous live timing app was a premium app one had to buy a new version of every year. The new one is an app, where each season subscription is an in-app-purchase. This is more convenient than a de-install + install. As an upside the timing without splits is now available for free and the IAP cost is much lower than the previous price of the app, most likely to attract more users in. There's nothing wrong with the IAP mechanism as such, even though some popular games have learnt to exploit it.

Your points are irrefutable in relative terms but, IMO, marketing bullshit in absolute terms. It has taken the worsening of the product to make it "better".

Edited by Disgrace, 15 March 2014 - 17:50.

Disagree. The previous live timing app was a premium app one had to buy a new version of every year. The new one is an app, where each season subscription is an in-app-purchase. This is more convenient than a de-install + install. As an upside the timing without splits is now available for free and the IAP cost is much lower than the previous price of the app, most likely to attract more users in. There's nothing wrong with the IAP mechanism as such, even though some popular games have learnt to exploit it.

But the fundamental point remains.  This is taking revenue from the fans to no benefit to the sport at all.  Only commercial rights exploiters.  It's not as if it's a season ticket you can buy that goes to help to fund a football club - it's another example of FOM exploiting revenue streams it has done less than nothing to earn.

And it's something that pretty much every other sport on the planet dishes out for nothing.  It might have the effect of driving fans away, but FOM won't care; it's the teams who will be hit as sponsors start pulling more money out as they are advertising to fewer people.  FOM has its cash in the bank for selling the rights already - and if that drops down it'll sell the right to hold a race in some godforsaken human-rights-abusing dictatorship, like, say, Azerbaijan, to fill the gap.