So, the new turbo engines 'kept Mercedes in F1'

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/113363

This is the trouble with letting manufacturers rule the roost in F1. They're not racers, and they're only in it as a marketing ploy.

In my opinion, F1 is much much better without manufacturers teams, who will up and leave as soon as their boards sense that further participation is not beneficial to their core business of selling motor cars.

And Niki's comment at the end about there 'being no more fans' [without the manufacturers]...? Yeah, right, Niki. Like there were no F1 fans in the 1970s, when the grid was full of garagistes and DFVs? Bring it back on is what I say!

But without the manufactures there would be no F1.

The rule change was a success if it kept both Renault and Mercedes in the sport and is bringing in Honda (again)... and who knows maybe even Cosworth could be on the way (back) in someday...

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/113363

 

This is the trouble with letting manufacturers rule the roost in F1. They're not racers, and they're only in it as a marketing ploy.

 

In my opinion, F1 is much much better without manufacturers teams, who will up and leave as soon as their boards sense that further participation is not beneficial to their core business of selling motor cars.

 

And Niki's comment at the end about there 'being no more fans' [without the manufacturers]...? Yeah, right, Niki. Like there were no F1 fans in the 1970s, when the grid was full of garagistes and DFVs? Bring it back on is what I say!

So, if there are no manufacturers, which powerplants would the teams be using in F1?

I very much doubt Cosworth would be ready to supply the whole field of F1 with engines right now.

So we'd have a new F1 - the Flintstone F1.

F1 have existed without Mercedes and Renault in the past and would have survived and existed had they both left. Some other manufacturers would see the chance to become a F1 winner, and some of the smaller engine tuners would have build an engine after all. There could have been a Cosworth, a PURE a Hart and whichever else is out there that we are not hearing about.

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/113363

 

This is the trouble with letting manufacturers rule the roost in F1. They're not racers, and they're only in it as a marketing ploy.

 

In my opinion, F1 is much much better without manufacturers teams, who will up and leave as soon as their boards sense that further participation is not beneficial to their core business of selling motor cars.

 

And Niki's comment at the end about there 'being no more fans' [without the manufacturers]...? Yeah, right, Niki. Like there were no F1 fans in the 1970s, when the grid was full of garagistes and DFVs? Bring it back on is what I say!

Hey, man, look, I get it. I'm getting old, too. I don't want to die, either. But the future is not ours. Things change and screaming into a cave isn't going to stop the march of time.

Yay, another thread whining about rule changes.

Get real, they had to happen, accept it, move on.

F1 has been a mix of "garagistes" and manufacturers from the very beginning, and so it should be.

But without the manufactures there would be no F1.

 

The rule change was a success if it kept both Renault and Mercedes in the sport and is bringing in Honda (again)... and who knows maybe even Cosworth could be on the way (back) in someday...

Mecachrome (an outfit Briatore bought back in the Beneton days) still builds the Renault Engines, the electronics for both the Renault and Ferrari PUs are outsourced to Magneti Marelli. 

Mercedes HPE was Ilmor till Merc bought them

Cosworth can still produce engines

the world would not stop revolving without manufacturers, quite the opposite. Yes you 'd have infinity badged Mecachromes and whatever, but life would go on

So the option would be having maufacturer support, with the resulting big gaps between engine manufacturers that we have due to new rules...

...or less manufacturer support, with teams having to shop around for whatever they can get. Would probably be great for Ferrari and everyone else miles behind with Cosworths, non-Renault-funded Mechachromes and whoever else turned up at the last minute.

Probably not much difference in on track product, but probably fewer headaches with the former.

Mecachrome (an outfit Briatore bought back in the Beneton days) still builds the Renault Engines, the electronics for both the Renault and Ferrari PUs are outsourced to Magneti Marelli. 
Mercedes HPE was Ilmor till Merc bought them
Cosworth can still produce engines
 
the world would not stop revolving without manufacturers, quite the opposite. Yes you 'd have infinity badged Mecachromes and whatever, but life would go on

So the option would be having maufacturer support, with the resulting big gaps between engine manufacturers that we have due to new rules...

 

...or less manufacturer support, with teams having to shop around for whatever they can get. Would probably be great for Ferrari and everyone else miles behind with Cosworths, non-Renault-funded Mechachromes and whoever else turned up at the last minute.

 

Probably not much difference in on track product, but probably fewer headaches with the former.

you have a contrived set of regulations that try to keep manufacturers "interested" but also not "spending much". What keeps manufacturers interested is the publicity they get from winning, what in theory stops them from spending much is homologuation. I personally don't see the difference between Mercedes badged Ilmors (which lets not forget that's what Merc engines were for the longest time) and whatever badged Mecachromes/Cosworths etc.

Innovation though will follow the money, and with the current engines costing roughly 20mil per season per team 200+ mil per season is plenty enough incentive for the Mecachromes and Cosworths of this world to attract good. innovative engineers. It's not like Oh Renault left, Merc left, ohmygod F1 engines are designed by Bob in his garden shed 

Personally though, I 'd see the "big" teams fund their own engine programs, McLaren engine, Red Bull engine etc

you have a contrived set of regulations that try to keep manufacturers "interested" but also not "spending much". What keeps manufacturers interested is the publicity they get from winning, what in theory stops them from spending much is homologuation. I personally don't see the difference between Mercedes badged Ilmors (which lets not forget that's what Merc engines were for the longest time) and whatever badged Mecachromes/Cosworths etc.
 
Innovation though will follow the money, and with the current engines costing roughly 20mil per season per team 200+ mil per season is plenty enough incentive for the Mecachromes and Cosworths of this world to attract good. innovative engineers. It's not like Oh Renault left, Merc left, ohmygod F1 engines are designed by Bob in his garden shed 
 
Personally though, I 'd see the "big" teams fund their own engine programs, McLaren engine, Red Bull engine etc

Edited by ExFlagMan, 09 April 2014 - 09:54.

you have a contrived set of regulations that try to keep manufacturers "interested" but also not "spending much". What keeps manufacturers interested is the publicity they get from winning, what in theory stops them from spending much is homologuation. I personally don't see the difference between Mercedes badged Ilmors (which lets not forget that's what Merc engines were for the longest time) and whatever badged Mecachromes/Cosworths etc.

 

Innovation though will follow the money, and with the current engines costing roughly 20mil per season per team 200+ mil per season is plenty enough incentive for the Mecachromes and Cosworths of this world to attract good. innovative engineers. It's not like Oh Renault left, Merc left, ohmygod F1 engines are designed by Bob in his garden shed 

 

Personally though, I 'd see the "big" teams fund their own engine programs, McLaren engine, Red Bull engine etc

If all Mercedes did was put a badge on the Ilmor, you might have a point, but I'm sure they pumped a fair bit of cash into it too. Of course they now own the whole lot so if they pulled out would they sell Ilmor to become independent again?

Innovation does follow the money. Where does the money come from? Bob's Garden Shed Engines probably can't afford to pay high salaries for as many engineers as Mercedes-Benz or Renault. Does the cost fall on the teams? Might work for McLaren or Red Bull, but it doesn't make things any better for the lower half of the grid.

Biggest bull i've read. If it were the V8/V10s, and Merc won the first 3 races, they would be singing the same tune. 

It's just marketing/PR butter up...

If all Mercedes did was put a badge on the Ilmor, you might have a point, but I'm sure they pumped a fair bit of cash into it too. Of course they now own the whole lot so if they pulled out would they sell Ilmor to become independent again?

 

Innovation does follow the money. Where does the money come from? Bob's Garden Shed Engines probably can't afford to pay high salaries for as many engineers as Mercedes-Benz or Renault. Does the cost fall on the teams? Might work for McLaren or Red Bull, but it doesn't make things any better for the lower half of the grid.

I 'd agree if the engines, right now, weren't pretty much half the budget of a team like Marussia

My point is this say (for the sake of making the arithmetic easier) you have 12 F1 teams. That's 3 "lots" of 4 teams each, each lot spending 80mil per season on engines. Over 5 seasons which is a conservative length for homologuation that's a total of 400mil. That's plenty of money to R&D and manufacture engines which are meant to be homologuated, and modern finance makes it possible to useup the R&D upfont and amortize it over the length of the homologuation. Don't forget the intent of the regulations we have right now was for a 100 million upfront spend, not half a billion before an engine ever got installed in a car.

F1 can be self sustaining with the 2 billion of revenue it generates and produce its own engines so that manufacturers are a bonus but not a necessity. But for that to happen they will need a more "socialist" structure that ensures even the smaller teams can fund themselves, not to a championship contention level of course.

I 'd agree if the engines, right now, weren't pretty much half the budget of a team like Marussia

My point is this say (for the sake of making the arithmetic easier) you have 12 F1 teams. That's 3 "lots" of 4 teams each, each lot spending 80mil per season on engines. Over 5 seasons which is a conservative length for homologuation that's a total of 400mil. That's plenty of money to R&D and manufacture engines which are meant to be homologuated, and modern finance makes it possible to useup the R&D upfont and amortize it over the length of the homologuation. Don't forget the intent of the regulations we have right now was for a 100 million upfront spend, not half a billion before an engine ever got installed in a car.

F1 can be self sustaining with the 2 billion of revenue it generates and produce its own engines so that manufacturers are a bonus but not a necessity. But for that to happen they will need a more "socialist" structure that ensures even the smaller teams can fund themselves, not to a championship contention level of course.

Edited by Fatgadget, 09 April 2014 - 10:49.

F1 have existed without Mercedes and Renault in the past and would have survived and existed had they both left. Some other manufacturers would see the chance to become a F1 winner, and some of the smaller engine tuners would have build an engine after all. There could have been a Cosworth, a PURE a Hart and whichever else is out there that we are not hearing about.

 

It's always great to see such optimism still around...

But without the manufactures there would be no F1.

 

The 'golden era' of Formula 1 was a circus of customer cars and almost everyone running the same engine. 

Oh yeah? Which golden era was that?

Oh yeah? Which golden era was that?

A Mercedes board member said something really scary and it was reported in Autosport today. he said that then new rules kept M-B in F1, but he added that it is only valuable when (if) they are winning. He said that if they weren't winning it was only Marketing and that wasn't reason enough to remain in F1. I am paraphrasing.

So, it seems that Renault, Ferrari and perhaps Honda next year are only "marketing" their product and I gather that if mercedes doesn't win next year it will become merely "marketing" and so they will depart. So, amid all the nice noise about the new F1 being so technically important is the message that one must win to justify it all. Win races? Win championships? Who knows? Whatever the case is M-B's time in F1 seems to be limited, for, inevitably, they cannot win forever.

I wouldn't mind an F1 with just one single engine supplier.

But we all know that. If I am Lewis for ex, I am already asking my agent to keep his eyes and ears open as mercedes will not be around as long as McLaren or Ferrari for ex. Not as a team anyway. 

I wouldn't mind an F1 with just one single engine supplier.

Me neither. Will allways have twists and turns making it equally just as riveting...I somehow doubt the likes of Ferrari would play ball though.Tradition and all that....

 Well, they can use their special Veto and keep their Ferrari engine and every other team can have Mercedes engines. All the teams would take that deal right now.

A Mercedes board member said something really scary and it was reported in Autosport today. he said that then new rules kept M-B in F1, but he added that it is only valuable when (if) they are winning. He said that if they weren't winning it was only Marketing and that wasn't reason enough to remain in F1. I am paraphrasing.

 

So, it seems that Renault, Ferrari and perhaps Honda next year are only "marketing" their product and I gather that if mercedes doesn't win next year it will become merely "marketing" and so they will depart. So, amid all the nice noise about the new F1 being so technically important is the message that one must win to justify it all. Win races? Win championships? Who knows? Whatever the case is M-B's time in F1 seems to be limited, for, inevitably, they cannot win forever.

In equally scary news, Tuesday will follow on from Monday.

They are just trying to remind FIA and place pressure on them not to attempt in season regulations change that rbr and ferrari hope for.

and kept Renault too.

So I guess all of you would be fine with a Formula Ferrrari series.

Funny how F1 is so worthless with each team threatening to quit if they are not winning everything.

With manufacturers they sometimes leave after they've won...

In equally scary news, Tuesday will follow on from Monday.

Good point! I was amazed, though, that he was so open about it.

Let's hope Honda finds 3 sec on Mercedes, see who's complaining, and who threats...

really, people are taking a Corporate PR report this seriously??? do people really believe Mercedes would've left the sport if they didn't win first 3 races??? also, the engine formula was decided upon 3 years ago, and now a corporate spokesperson says merc would've left if not for the new engine ... 

corporate drivel BS is not even worth reading. 

nothing to see here. ... move along.

F1 can be self sustaining with the 2 billion of revenue it generates and produce its own engines so that manufacturers are a bonus but not a necessity. But for that to happen they will need a more "socialist" structure that ensures even the smaller teams can fund themselves, not to a championship contention level of course.

It's always great to see such optimism still around...

I contrary to some here, simply do not see F1 as an insular world without any contact to the outside world. When there is room it will fill up, were Mercedes and Renault to pull out, then we have Honda already coming in, we have Ferrari who will only supply a limited number of teams, the balance of teams will find an engine somewhere. This has happened before and can happen again without the world coming to an end, there were rumblings last week about Red Bull teaming with some Austrian engine maker, to create their won engine (unless that was an Aprils fool). Back in the 80ies you had Hart taking on the manufacturers using limited resources to build an engine which:

Took 2 Poles.

Took 2 fastest lap

Took 5 podiums

Led 1 Grand Prix

Scored 63 points in total when only 6 first scored.

Participated in 144 Grand Epreuves

I agree that this was not a world-beater but they were there and managed, some one would be willing to take a stab at F1.

The 'golden era' of Formula 1 was a circus of customer cars and almost everyone running the same engine.

My point is this say (for the sake of making the arithmetic easier) you have 12 F1 teams. That's 3 "lots" of 4 teams each, each lot spending 80mil per season on engines. Over 5 seasons which is a conservative length for homologuation that's a total of 400mil. [u]That's plenty of money to R&D and manufacture engines which are meant to be homologuated, and modern finance makes it possible to useup the R&D upfont and amortize it over the length of the homologuation.[\u] Don't forget the intent of the regulations we have right now was for a 100 million upfront spend, not half a billion before an engine ever got installed in a car.

What if it was McLaren doing the winning? Sure a Mercedes engine is providing the power, but it is public knowledge that McLaren are dumping Merc at the end of this season.

How would that fit into the M-B Board's view of "winning"? Being a team and an engine supplier to other teams muddies the waters. Did he mean that M-B would sell their team but continue as en engine supplier? Or, did he mean that everything would go?

The statement is very opaque.

In the end, Ferrari are in it to race. I don't think their road car division really benefits, sales-wise, from their F1 endeavors or anything. They do it because its *what they do*.

I think everyone, who knows anything about F1, associates F1 with Ferrari being in it . F1 gives Ferrari sort of visibility that they really exist and are there to race. So I do think quitting F1 would have an influence on their car sales, even if not instantly, then long-term. Because one important window through which they get visibility, is gone. And in terms of long-term prospects it would matter especially among younger generation customers, who don't have the nostalgia.

Going backwards in 5 year increments:

• 2009 - Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, BMW, Toyota
• 2004 - Ferrari, Cosworth, Honda, Merceds, Renault, Petronas, Toyota, BMW
• 1999 - Ferrari, Arrows, Supertec, Playlife, Mugen Honda, Mercedes, Cosworth, Peugeot, Petronas, Supertec
• 1994 - Ferrari, Cosworth, Hart, Renault, Mugen Honda, Peugeot, Ilmor, Mercedes, Yamaha
• 1989 - Ferrari, Cosworth, Judd, Lamborghini, Honda, Renault, Yamaha
• 1984 - Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Cosworth, BMW, Renault, TAG Porsche, Hart, Honda
• 1979 - Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Cosworth, Renault
• 1974 - Ferrari, Cosworth, BRM
• 1969 - Ferrari, Repco, Climax, Cosworth, BRM, Maserati
• 1964 - Ferrari, A-T-S, Ford, BRM, Climax, Honda, Porsche
• 1959 - Ferrari, Aston Martin, BRM, Alta, Climax, OSCA, Maserati, Borgward, Porsche, Vanwall, Offenhauser
• 1954 - Ferrari, Lea Francis, Bristol, Alta, Gordini, BMW, Lancia, Maserati, Mercedes, Vanwall
• 1950 - Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Alta, JAP, ERA, Jaguar, Gordini, FIAT, Talbot

See the one constant.

Going backwards in 5 year increments:

 

• 2009 - Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, BMW, Toyota
• 2004 - Ferrari, Cosworth, Honda, Merceds, Renault, Petronas, Toyota, BMW
• 1999 - Ferrari, Arrows, Supertec, Playlife, Mugen Honda, Mercedes, Cosworth, Peugeot, Petronas, Supertec
• 1994 - Ferrari, Cosworth, Hart, Renault, Mugen Honda, Peugeot, Ilmor, Mercedes, Yamaha
• 1989 - Ferrari, Cosworth, Judd, Lamborghini, Honda, Renault, Yamaha
• 1984 - Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Cosworth, BMW, Renault, TAG Porsche, Hart, Honda
• 1979 - Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Cosworth, Renault
• 1974 - Ferrari, Cosworth, BRM
• 1969 - Ferrari, Repco, Climax, Cosworth, BRM, Maserati
• 1964 - Ferrari, A-T-S, Ford, BRM, Climax, Honda, Porsche
• 1959 - Ferrari, Aston Martin, BRM, Alta, Climax, OSCA, Maserati, Borgward, Porsche, Vanwall, Offenhauser
• 1954 - Ferrari, Lea Francis, Bristol, Alta, Gordini, BMW, Lancia, Maserati, Mercedes, Vanwall
• 1950 - Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Alta, JAP, ERA, Jaguar, Gordini, FIAT, Talbot

See the one constant.

 

If I follow your point, the real counterpart of Ferrari was Ford-Cosworth in historic terms. That's why between 64 ans 84 an even later, a lot of teams playing with relative stability. If you add the number of relevant teams around this equation, we will find names as Ferrari, Williams, McLaren, Lotus, Brabham, Ligier, March, or Shadow, all winers eventually. In 1977 Renault toke the 1500 CC turbo niche and everything changed. The turbo era opened the space to manufacturers... 

I think everyone, who knows anything about F1, associates F1 with Ferrari being in it . F1 gives Ferrari sort of visibility that they really exist and are there to race. So I do think quitting F1 would have an influence on their car sales, even if not instantly, then long-term. Because one important window through which they get visibility, is gone. And in terms of long-term prospects it would matter especially among younger generation customers, who don't have the nostalgia.

Ofc, we need Ferrari to be the enemy

If I follow your point, the real counterpart of Ferrari was Ford-Cosworth in historic terms. That's why between 64 ans 84 an even later, a lot of teams playing with relative stability. If you add the number of relevant teams around this equation, we will find names as Ferrari, Williams, McLaren, Lotus, Brabham, Ligier, March, or Shadow, all winers eventually. In 1977 Renault toke the 1500 CC turbo niche and everything changed. The turbo era opened the space to manufacturers... 

Point is that the manufacturers come and go with one exception, Mercedes and Renault leaving would not kill F1, and would not make F1 a one engine formula, the hole left by a Mercedes and Renault withdrawal would be filled.

Discussion of teams coming, going, disappearing is for another thread.

This shows that Mercedes is only interested in the short term wrt F1 and are not really committed to motorsport as 'a reason to' be as a manufacturer.

They will stay only for as long as the the F1 'powers that be' will bend to their demands, ie turbo PU's (Merc technology which just so happens to be dominant). I would say that the slap on the wrist by the 'independent' International Tribunal for their illegal testing last season was also resulting from not to subtle threats to leave.

Edited by halifaxf1fan, 10 April 2014 - 11:37.