Vettel calling his RB10 a cucumber

That cucumber just won a race. Musn't be too bad.

because two Mercedes cars in front had problems. Because Williams messed up strategy a bit for Massa. Yes, RBR won, but you got to look at other factors too.

he is talking about the straight line speed, not about his car, lazy translation, without having the context in mind. Renault Engine was so slow, a wonder Red Bull was the fastest package behind Mercedes

I think you are wrong in your ASSUMPTION that the SUGGESTION was aimed at helping DR fight for position. (SV often ignores the pit wall, so anything said to him is only a suggestion) 

SV has had tyre degradation issues this year, they need to work with that not against it

I did not suggest that the ORDER was aimed at helping DR fight for position.  I believe it was primarily because they did not want the drivers to race (tyres, engines, etc., etc) the reason they gave was mostly BS, but an outside possibility so not untrue.

you are seeing a conspiracy here Bourbon

One with less legs than almost all of the ones us old MW fans saw

What are you talking about?  I see no conspiracy at all.  They were not trying to stop Seb from winning or get Dan to win.  They did not want them to race and there was an outside chance for both if they didn't. 

Team orders and bad handling of strategies does not have to be based in conspiracies.  I do not think like that. 

And...this is best left to the SV vs DR thread

Not before I answer to being called a conspiracy nut    But now, yes.

here... the engine is rubbish

but the Mercs have a great chassis as well as great engine so even if the Renault was better is no guarantee of success in 2014

Agreed, but there is really no guarantee of anything, so we can hope...

Edited by bourbon, 10 June 2014 - 08:24.

I don't know what that's even supposed to mean, but its hilarious all the same.

 

Wrong.  I don't blame Daniel one bit.  That is racing and he did what any red blooded racer would do.

 

Horner's PR speak only addresses it from Daniel's point of view - and that is correct, Daniel was impressive and had the right to take what he could make from that (being in front of Vettel on the exit).  BUT, That is where the problem occurs, because if that was the Red Bull philosophy, then Red Bull should have also allowed Seb, on his "massively impressive" warmer tyres, to race Dan for his position back.  Instead, they gave the order for Seb to back off.  

 

They've been giving all kinds of orders to Seb this season - and when he was puttering around like a tug boat and Dan was on a different strategy, okay - but not when Seb was doing faster times behind.  In other words, if they are going to be handing out orders anyway, why not give it to Dan to stay behind Seb where he was before the pit stop and let him be "massively impressive" overtaking Seb?   The team knew the relative speed Seb would be able to do behind the Hulk and what Ricciardo would be able to do in his position before their stops, so if they were going to make choices about team orders, then they should have applied it to allow the status quo to stand. 

 

OR give no orders at all which is MY preferred solution - and let Daniel do his thing like he did, which was mega cool and then let Seb do his thing once they met up on track and fight for position.  LET THEM RACE.  All fair.

Bourbon, you completely ignored the portion of your post that I'd bolded (and that I was talking about) and you then changed the basis of your story to avoid looking foolish.  Allow me to re-quote what you said "As if Red Bull was not responsible for pulling both drivers in according to their track position and getting them back out similarly."

This is what my post referred to, so I reiterate, - it is not the team's responsibility to ensure each driver has good in/out laps, - that's up to the drivers.  Dan did, Seb didn't.

...and as everyone (except the tin-foil hat brigade) seems to understand, there were no team orders, just a suggestion to help Seb conserve his tyres so he might get a better result.  The same suggestion has been given to Dan several times in different races.

The team were trying to help Seb, not hinder him...

There's no denying the car is a long, long way off the Mercs though.

I don't see any contention.

RBR will only be able to win races if the Mercs have mechanical trouble or crashes.

Harder to complain when your teammate's quicker than you.

Riccardo is still living in the glory of his win and beating Vettel.

Vettel is the one who has obliterated the grid for the last 4 seasons. He wants to win, win big and win consistently. Second or third is not good enough for him. It may be for Riccardo. They have different perspectives.

My humble opinion of course.

Let's put ourselves into drivers point of view. Imagine yourself competing at Grands Prix and from race to race you can't even get into the slipstream of certain cars even with your DRS open. And spend the whole race behind them. It will get frustrating if you endure this all season. Drivers express it in a different way. But living in this thing and commenting from the outside (hey, what's wrong with him?!) is a different kettle of fish altogether.

I would have thought that the cucumber is one of the more aerodynamic of the vegetables.  True, it lacks the tapered, purposeful nose of your average carrot or parsnip, the zing of an onion or the versaility of a potato, but it's a damn sight better than dragging a broccoli floret around the track, manhandling a cabbage around without all the leaves coming off, or even trying to assemble a bag of frozen peas into something raceworthy.  Vettel should be thankful for what he's got! 

That's a good one.

I'm not entirely sure what the discussion point is here that might warrant a separate thread from the RB10 one, but I'll keep it open for a while.  However, I can be certain that the quote is not about team orders or tactics, not about Vettel's finger, and more than likely not about actual cucumbers.

Please try to stay on topic, if you can work out what the topic is.

There's no denying the car is a long, long way off the Mercs though.

 

I don't see any contention.

 

RBR will only be able to win races if the Mercs have mechanical trouble or crashes.

Absolutely the case.

Without poor reliability, Mercedes would have obviously won at a canter on Sunday and the same for every other race this season.

In fact even with massive problems, they still almost won.

The problems RBR had on the straights was pretty grim for them.

Bourbon, you completely ignored the portion of your post that I'd bolded (and that I was talking about) and you then changed the basis of your story to avoid looking foolish.  Allow me to re-quote what you said "As if Red Bull was not responsible for pulling both drivers in according to their track position and getting them back out similarly."

 

This is what my post referred to, so I reiterate, - it is not the team's responsibility to ensure each driver has good in/out laps, - that's up to the drivers.  Dan did, Seb didn't.

 

Hey - I moved this to the Seb/Dan thread because of Buttoneer's post which he posted while I was answering.  See you there. 

Edited by bourbon, 10 June 2014 - 09:01.

My view is this is a mega body blow to Seb, a psychological blow that may affect his confidence and was perhaps telling in his body language in that room after the race.

Seb qualified ahead in 3rd he was even up to 2nd in the race - briefly, but he was best of the rest and would have expected to benefit from any Merc issues. Alas not. To lose out on pace to his team is one thing, but to effectively go backwards while dan went forwards is not something one would expect from a 4 x wdc. That would never happen to Lh, Nandi or Jb without car issues.

In fact I'll go as far as stating that this has never happened to Seb in F1, ever!

Interesting to see how bounces back :popcorn:

I doubt Canada is such a big blow to Vettel, this race was a lot like flipping coins for the RB guys. Those earlier couple of races where Sebastian had to give way to Dan based on an obvious pace difference must have been painful, but this one not so much, at least not in a way of hurting his confidence. Just like you looking forward how this rivalry will evolve

Marko excused Vettel for any signs of mounting frustration, including the description of the RB10 as a ‘cucumber’.

‘If we do not give Seb a car capable of winning, we cannot be angry with him for being disappointed,’ he told Bild newspaper. 

US writer Joe Scalzo must definitely love this expression of Seb.

Because in his book about the roadster years, Scalzo refers to the big Offy Roadsters being nicknamed  Cucumbers.

But compared with the Red Bull cucumber, I think that the Offy Roadsters may look better, though, of course hopelessly oldfashioned.

As for Seb's comment: if true: a classic case of "sour vegetables".  A character building year for him won't hurt him. Perhaps that will make him realize that racing is team work and that hee needs them to gain successes like he did in the recent past.

Henri

If RBR had a Mercedes Power Unit, he would be chasing title #5. I have no doubt about that.

I strongly disagree.

Mercedes are winning because they have the most efficient package.  A draggy high downforce set-up doesn't have the same advantages as it once did.  It's all about efficiency these days

The original 'Flying Cucumber': Manfred von Brauchitch in (ironically) his Mercedes Benz SSKL, 1932.

 

As for Seb's comment: if true: a classic case of "sour vegetables". 

 

No, that would be a gherkin.

Could we at least get the german original for his comments (i read it but can't find it).

Since we are discussing something he didn't say. Iirc he was talking about top speed.

Also reported by ANSA just in case someone wants a source.

http://www.ansa.it/s...8f48f7a564.html

Apparently he also criticised the strategy and said: "I'm not here for coming 2nd or 3rd".

I'm not a Vettel fan but see nothing wrong with his opinion. I think the team realise they are not where they would like to be and no racing driver is happy finishing anything but first, especially a 4 time World Champion.

I could understand Ferrari being unhappy with a driver voicing unhappy concerns because they mute that sort of thing, but most teams are less touchy and would be worried if a driver is happy with under-performance.

Hat's off to Vettel for being honest and sharing his frustration. I know some fans are sensitive to that but they are human after all

Could we at least get the german original for his comments (i read it but can't find it).

 

Since we are discussing something he didn't say. Iirc he was talking about top speed.

"Das mit unserer Gurke auf der Geraden nichts geht", sagte Vettel, "ist einfach frustrierend. Entschuldigung, aber das muss man mal so sagen."

This sentence did indeed grab a few headlines in the German press, and was regarded as evidence of Vettels frustration.

Seb is known for being less politcally correct compared to somebody like Michael, which makes him also more interesting for the media.

I don't know what that's even supposed to mean, but its hilarious all the same.

Typically german, but cannot translated 1 to 1.

Replace "cucumber" with "turtle" when it relates to cars you are spot on.

Edited by jee, 10 June 2014 - 11:03.

Not that spectacular to say that the RB10 is slow on straights - pretty clear that he means the PU/engine.

It must have been one of the most frustrating races for Vettel. He had a 6 second gap over his team mate and then gradually lost it due to being stuck behind FI and finally lost out by a small margin after the pit stop. (Although it has to be said Ric is a deserving winner - both of them would have deserved the win that day.)

I'm not entirely sure what the discussion point is here that might warrant a separate thread from the RB10 one, but I'll keep it open for a while. However, I can be certain that the quote is not about team orders or tactics, not about Vettel's finger, and more than likely not about actual cucumbers.

Please try to stay on topic, if you can work out what the topic is.

Typically german, but cannot translated 1 to 1.

Replace "cucumber" with "turtle" when it relates to cars you are spot on.

I thought, driving a lemon would fit better here..

Cucumber is just German slang for a slow car. Completely harmless.

Exactly.

Michael Schumacher once said. "Mit einer Gurke kann ich auch keine Rennen gewinnen". With a cucumber I can't win races either.

"Lemon" is exactly the right translation for "Gurke", in this context. There's nothing more about it.

Really, two years after all the fuss when Vettel called something "cucumber" for the first time, and still this confusion in the english-speaking world what those crazy Germans could possibly mean with "cucumber", when the translation is actually so easy...

But what a chassis !

If the Reno get some more horses, I think we might see some interesting fights NRvsLHvsDRvsSV 

I don't understand how it can be so difficult to understand the topic.
He called his car (or engine, whatever) "cucumber".
I don't think that's very respectful towards Red Bull (or Renault) considering what they gave him in the past four seasons.

You don't understand the topic because you don't understand the cultural context. Cucumber isn't even a proper swearword. It's just tongue-in-cheek.like calling the fat around your belly love handles.

I thought this was a Caterham, but obviously it is an unpainted RB10 undergoing some illegal testing!

It does open up significant new sponorship opportunities though.

Neil

Edited by Option1, 10 June 2014 - 14:26.

Marko excused Vettel for any signs of mounting frustration, including the description of the RB10 as a ‘cucumber’.

 

‘If we do not give Seb a car capable of winning, we cannot be angry with him for being disappointed,’ he told Bild newspaper. 

In that case all 22 drivers should call their bolids cucumbers, all except Merc drivers. Bourbon, I don't think your explanation for his frustration is the right one, he could be frustrated after a year or 2 or more, but he is frustrated only after few races ... Vettel is a spoiled frustrated kid ?

Vettel: "With our cucumber we can do nothing on the straight lines. There's still a lack of power... and it's frustrating."

Wow.

He should sit on a Ferrari and try to find a vegetable similarity for it...

He should sit on a Ferrari and try to find a vegetable similarity for it...

I'm sure he would call it tomato ;)

You don't understand the topic because you don't understand the cultural context. Cucumber isn't even a proper swearword. It's just tongue-in-cheek.like calling the fat around your belly love handles.

Ok, maybe it's like that in England.
But in Italy various important sources reported this as "Vettel attacks Red Bull", I guess it has different interpretations from country to country then.

That just meens Italians are bad at translating.

Or good at sensationalising.

Or mediocre at understanding produce-related comparisons.

Neil

Vettel is talking nonsense. The car was good enough to win on Sunday in the hands of his team mate.

He clearly has the 2nd best car on the grid and these comments just seem like excuses for why he is underperforming this year.

He spoke about the straight line speed, in this was awful, Dan passed Checo because the car of the Mexican was broken and he made a mistake. That's no excuse everybody could see it, you are the first here, moaning about Vettel and his "excuses"

Vettel calls everyone or anything he doesn't like a cucumber. Didn't he call Karthikeyan the same a few years ago?

He spoke about the straight line speed, in this was awful, Dan passed Checo because the car of the Mexican was broken and he made a mistake. That's no excuse everybody could see it, you are the first here, moaning about Vettel and his "excuses"

The winning car barely overtook a car with much older tires, little brakes and electrical problems. And i'm talking about Perez.

So yes, the engine is a cucumber. A better cucumber than Ferrari but still.

The winning car barely overtook a car with much older tires, little brakes and electrical problems. And i'm talking about Perez.

So yes, the engine is a cucumber. A better cucumber than Ferrari but still.

I think people have to realize first that he said it in german AFAIR. And there 'gurke' is a common word to say that it's slow. And he only said it about the straight line speed where slow is an accurate description of the RB/Renault engine.

Big whoop about nothing. You guys need to chill a second.

Car's fine but the engine is poor and Red Bulls ploy to have stupid gear ratios can hurt them now they're no longer running away with things out front.

And massa with the almighty mercedes engine was not able to overtake the 2 cars with cucumbers for engines that were in front of him.

That says more about the driver if you watched the race.

Edited by Diablobb81, 10 June 2014 - 18:20.

The nerve of complaining after having the best car of the last 5 years.

 

Red Bull have poor aero efficiency and a lot of drag, that is why Mercedes is so much faster, not because of engine alone. 

That's why you see all the other Renault engined teams doing so well.  *Looks at standings*

Oh..

Edited by HoldenRT, 10 June 2014 - 18:35.

That just meens Italians are bad at translating.

Or good at sensationalising.

Or mediocre at understanding produce-related comparisons.

 

Neil

Bah... you serious guys ?

What I will hear next, that calling his car like that was a compliment, perhaps ? 

Ansa, Gazzetta, Rai, Repubblica, and many others... we are talking about top-level sources... they are ALL wrong to think that VET was a bit harsh towards his team ?

What about when the german press suggested Michael, in 1998, to "leave that red cucumber" ? That was also a compliment ?

Ok, fine, to each his own. 

Edited by steferrari, 10 June 2014 - 18:42.