Dips in form not tolerated ?

Dips in form are tolerated. They all have dips in form.

 

I found an interesting argument in another forum. F1 seems to be the only sport where dips in form are not tolerate ...

 

Pffft, try being a football coach 

Pffft, try being a football coach 

You mixing it up, if I have a bad season in football, and that happened to the likes of Beckenbauer and Maradona as well, my legacy will not go down the drain. They were criticized by the media or taken off by their coach, but in the end, all remembered the best of the best of the players and not these small periods...

Edited by 1Devil1, 24 June 2014 - 13:34.

Well now you're also mixing up different things. Small dips rarely affect a sportsmen's overall reputation. They are remembered historically for their average performances over their career. But in most sports if you have a temporary dip in form, for that period there is lots of criticism. If Roger Federer stops winning a lot people wonder if it's time for him to retire. 

Well now you're also mixing up different things. Small dips rarely affect a sportsmen's overall reputation. They are remembered historically for their average performances over their career. But in most sports if you have a temporary dip in form, for that period there is lots of criticism. If Roger Federer stops winning a lot people wonder if it's time for him to retire. 

I don't think we are far off, but this small dips are focus of a discussion quit often in F1 later on. People still moaning about 2007 in Alonso's case or about his start of the season in 2004 against Trulli, can't see another sport were you always look back to find something to criticize. Most of the time, it's about the reasoning why a driver is not a great or the best ever not the other way around. 

can't see another sport were you always look back to find something to criticize. Most of the time, it's about the reasoning why a driver is not a great or the best ever not the other way around. 

You do realize you are one of these people, right?

Anyway, interesting thread. Definitely seems that people are not accepting dips in form in F1 as much as in other sports.

You mixing it up, if I have a bad season in football, and that happened to the likes of Beckenbauer and Maradona as well, my legacy will not go down the drain. They were criticized by the media or taken off by their coach, but in the end, all remembered the best of the best of the players and not these small periods...

I don't think it is any different in motorsports. Just disregard the nonsense posted in forums to get a clearer picture.

Leave Sebastian alone!!!!!!

Just thought I'd summarise

Leave Sebastian alone!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

Just thought I'd summarise

  I know someone would post that, cheap shot. Did I not talk about Lewis, Alonso and Seb

Pretty certain you dont know what a cheap shot is then

define tolerated? these people are the very cream on top of the cream of the crop, the 0,000001 percenters. So yes of course they are expected to be at their best at all times. Do they? of course not. Is it not "tolerated"? well did you hear Ferrari/RB trying to fire Kimi/Seb?

I think it depends whether you talk about a current situation or a past situation. You can only talk about a dip if the dip has stopped and the driver continued to perform at its usual level. The OP gives 3 examples, but of those 2 are still going on, and Alonso's 2007 season didn't hurt his reputation, even if you exaggerate the situation by saying that he was beaten by a rookie. Perhaps had Hamilton actually finished like 20 points ahead of him that would be the proper wording.

You are comparing the drivers to each other so as long as all the drivers are judged in the same way and by the same standards, it doesn't really matter if dips are tolerated or not does it? 

Edited by bub, 24 June 2014 - 14:17.

I think it depends whether you talk about a current situation or a past situation. You can only talk about a dip if the dip has stopped and the driver continued to perform at its usual level. The OP gives 3 examples, but of those 2 are still going on, and Alonso's 2007 season didn't hurt his reputation, even if you exaggerate the situation by saying that he was beaten by a rookie. Perhaps had Hamilton actually finished like 20 points ahead of him that would be the proper wording.

Isn't that one of the points, to wait and see what happen with Sebastian after his year, people using arguments, that his legacy is gone or destroyed already, but in reality we not some more years to come to judge if he lost against a good but not great driver, or how this first year with the new regulation effected him. He gets criticized for this performance, and that's right, but how can we make a long term judgement when we are eight races into the season? If Messi would play have a season bad, would this harm his legacy? What happened to Alonso in 2007, what did people say half way through the season, I did not follow the forum back then, was he slaughtered? I guess knowing how things work, yes for sure..

If you want to be a top sportsman, then you have to take comment on your performance, F1 is not special in that regards.

Look at Rooney in the World cup, Or Tiger Woods after his affairs, or any tennis player coming back from an injury. They're all questioned on their ability. 

In all sports the dips in form are criticised... and tolerated and even forgiven if and when form is recovered. F1 is no different.

In the dips the criticism is too harsh, during the high's the praise is too extreme. F1 is no different.

f1 is a very harsh for some

Isn't that one of the points, to wait and see what happen with Sebastian after his year, people using arguments, that his legacy is gone or destroyed already, but in reality we not some more years to come to judge if he lost against a good but not great driver, or how this first year with the new regulation effected him. He gets criticized for this performance, and that's right, but how can we make a long term judgement when we are eight races into the season? If Messi would play have a season bad, would this harm his legacy? What happened to Alonso in 2007, what did people say half way through the season, I did not follow the forum back then, was he slaughtered? I guess knowing how things work, yes for sure..

That's why the wise will refrain themselves from making hasty judgments.

I don't remember exactly how the 2007 example occurred, but I wouldn't be surprised if Hamilton at that time was named the next Senna. I don't think Alonso was slaughtered by the media/fans. First of all because like I said, he was hardly beaten by Hamilton. You do know they scored the same amount of points, right? And while he was in that apparent 'dip', he still won like 4 races. Then there were also the internal problems at McLaren that likely affected Alonso's performance. You're searching way too deep here.

Edited by Lights, 24 June 2014 - 14:24.

That's why the wise will refrain themselves from making hasty judgments.

 

I don't remember exactly how the 2007 example occurred, but I wouldn't be surprised if Hamilton at that time was named the next Senna. I don't think Alonso was slaughtered by the media/fans. First of all because like I said, he was hardly beaten by Hamilton. You do know they scored the same amount of points, right? And while he was in that apparent 'dip', he still won like 4 races. Then there were also the internal problems at McLaren that likely affected Alonso's performance. You're searching way too deep here.

I know the scored the same amount of points, I am not comparing the example from Seb vs. Dan to the one of Alonso and Lewis, because it's a different scenario. But it's the nearest in reason history, when a top driver failed to the expectations for the season. Nobody is saying Alonso had a nightmare season, nevertheless he lost out against a rookie, if the 'failure' of Sebastian is a bigger one, is down to individual interpretations. It was just an example not a judgment of Alonso's season

Edited by 1Devil1, 24 June 2014 - 14:34.

If a top scorer - let's say Messi - scores 40 goals this season while their new acquisition - Neymar - also scores 40. And they both lose the top european scoring award to Ronaldo who scores 41. Would you say that Messi's performance took a dip? Anything above 30 goals in a season for a top scorer is a great season.. - same with the old point system where above 100 pts was considered good performance. A dip to me is when they don't show up to race or to the match and are totally being outclassed by their teammate for more than just a few matches/races. 

Edited by discover23, 24 June 2014 - 15:08.

Of course dips in form are tolerated, even by top teams. How else do you explain Massa at Ferrari?

or Webber. 

Depends on perception really.  As an example, Hamilton still gets kicked for some off races in 2011;  to some that small sample defines his career rather the larger pool of evidence to the contrary.  It's a comfort blanket to prove that he's crap, similar in a way to how people view Vettel's season so far against DR.

Drivers do go through periods of form, good and bad.  People tend to get locked into the thinking that drivers belong to specific 'tiers'.  Coulthard beat Hakkinen over a season,  Trulli was beating Alonso before his sacking, Massa beat Kimi over a season, Button beat Hamilton over a season...... the gap was large between Kimi and JPM, large between Alonso and Kimi..... all results that go against the conventional wisdom of how drivers should perform.

Edited to add, (as already stated), the teams tend to have a slightly more forgiving view than the fans...!

Edited by P123, 24 June 2014 - 15:30.

Edited to add, (as already stated), the teams tend to have a slightly more forgiving view than the fans...!

Depends on perception really.  As an example, Hamilton still gets kicked for some off races in 2011;  to some that small sample defines his career rather the larger pool of evidence to the contrary.  It's a comfort blanket to prove that he's crap, similar in a way to how people view Vettel's season so far against DR.
 
Drivers do go through periods of form, good and bad.  People tend to get locked into the thinking that drivers belong to specific 'tiers'.  Coulthard beat Hakkinen over a season,  Trulli was beating Alonso before his sacking, Massa beat Kimi over a season, Button beat Hamilton over a season...... the gap was large between Kimi and JPM, large between Alonso and Kimi..... all results that go against the conventional wisdom of how drivers should perform.
 
Edited to add, (as already stated), the teams tend to have a slightly more forgiving view than the fans...!

Edited by Seanspeed, 24 June 2014 - 15:40.

Lewis was never 'off form' in 2011, though. Never understood the criticism about that year. Got into one too many little incidents sure, and it cost him, but he was hardly 'off form'. He was still very quick and put in some of his best performances. Like, I would never say he 'struggled' in 2011 at all, ya know?

Guys like Lewis and Alonso may have a bad weekend here and there, but they don't have slumps. They don't go through any meaningful periods of time where they don't perform well. In 2011, it was Button who seemed to step things up. Same with Trulli in 2004. Wasn't a case of these guys not doing well, its just their teammates had very good seasons.

Lewis made more mistakes than usual in 2011. I consider that being off form.

of course not ... dont' you know???

You are only Good as your last race   

Tolerated by who?

I think a lot depends on how people view situations in the grand scheme of things.

Fans are often living in the moment. Manchester United may have been winning a lot in the past, but now that they were having a bad season, their fans got very angry and wanted immediate action and changes. Past success suddenly wasn't "enough" any more if you are not getting the rewards RIGHT NOW.

The people inside the business perhaps are looking at the big picture they may see that current situation is more likely to be temporary rather than permanent. I.e Red Bull is not looking to get rid of Vettel and replace him with Kvyat just because he is not great right now. However, if Vettel is average all through 2014 and 2015, they may start to re-consider.

There are two sides. One thing is rating someone based on his greatness and heights, but this is pretty much a historical rating, i.e Schumacher is great with his 7 titles, even if he was not so great in 2010-2013. Other aspect is what is currently going on and if someone is performing badly/considered past his prime, teams have to take action to decide, what could be the best decision for their future. And fans are just happy or unhappy with the current developments. If you actively follow a sport, you are very much in the momentary emotion and this is different from historical rating.

Lewis made more mistakes than usual in 2011. I consider that being off form.

Isn't that one of the points, to wait and see what happen with Sebastian after his year, people using arguments, that his legacy is gone or destroyed already, but in reality we not some more years to come to judge if he lost against a good but not great driver, or how this first year with the new regulation effected him. He gets criticized for this performance, and that's right, but how can we make a long term judgement when we are eight races into the season? If Messi would play have a season bad, would this harm his legacy? What happened to Alonso in 2007, what did people say half way through the season, I did not follow the forum back then, was he slaughtered? I guess knowing how things work, yes for sure..

My memory may not be perfect in that regard, but I think Alonso was seriously questioned mid-2007. Hamilton had something like a 16-point lead somewhere in mid-season. I think Alonso was still considered a good driver (like Raikkonen, who was getting beaten by Massa at that time, or Massa himself), but I think not great and Hamilton was considered greater than all of rivals. Back then AT THAT MOMENT:

But that's the thing. One thing is rating based on momentary emotions, another thing when the dust has settled down.

In 10 years time people are more likely to remember Vettel's 4 titles rather than 2014. Like people remember Lauda's 3 titles and his heroic 1976 rather than getting beaten by Watson in 1982-83.

Nah. People greatly exaggerate how bad he was that year. He was still in fine form. Just had a few bad weekends here and there is all. I think of a driver having a slump when they're consistently performing badly over a period of time.

I think Hamilton had a bit of an off-form period in terms of RACE speed too. Button won Japan 2011, Hamilton was fifth. Button was second in India, Hamilton was battling for fifth before accident. Button was second at Singapore, Hamilton was battling for fifth before accident.

Then again those small dips have happened to Hamilton in other seasons too. Like last year, when Rosberg was on the podium in Abu Dhabi and India, while Hamilton was 6th and 7th in those races.

I think Hamilton had a bit of an off-form period in terms of RACE speed too. Button won Japan 2011, Hamilton was fifth. Button was second in India, Hamilton was battling for fifth before accident. Button was second at Singapore, Hamilton was battling for fifth before accident.

Hamilton did have a slump in 2011. There were a few great performances, but after he spun at Hungary and until the pole in Korea and win in Abu Dhabi, he was coming merely 4th or 5th in most races while Jenson was consistently on the podium.

Lewis:

2 8 1 4 2 6 Ret 4 4 1 4 Ret 4 5 5 2 7 1 Ret

Jenson:

6 2 4 6 3 3 1 6 Ret Ret 1 3 2 2 1 4 2 3 3

Two of his three retirements were down to errors while Jenson's were both mechanical/pit crew.

Edited by SpartanChas, 24 June 2014 - 19:01.

I think Hamilton had a bit of an off-form period in terms of RACE speed too. Button won Japan 2011, Hamilton was fifth. Button was second in India, Hamilton was battling for fifth before accident. Button was second at Singapore, Hamilton was battling for fifth before accident.

 

Then again those small dips have happened to Hamilton in other seasons too. Like last year, when Rosberg was on the podium in Abu Dhabi and India, while Hamilton was 6th and 7th in those races.

This

Lewis lost his form in terms of speed and race craft in the second half of 2011. If you broke down Lewis vs Jenson into half seasons, the only half season that Jenson performed outright better was the second half of 2011.

Even though Lewis's 2013 was hit and miss, it was still far better than his late 2011 form.

I think Hamilton had a bit of an off-form period in terms of RACE speed too. Button won Japan 2011, Hamilton was fifth. Button was second in India, Hamilton was battling for fifth before accident. Button was second at Singapore, Hamilton was battling for fifth before accident.
 
Then again those small dips have happened to Hamilton in other seasons too. Like last year, when Rosberg was on the podium in Abu Dhabi and India, while Hamilton was 6th and 7th in those races.

Every Grand Prix is a new data point in rating the drivers. So when a driver has an unprecedented dip in form, it will of course affect my overall view of him. The longer it goes on, the more bearing it has on his overall rating.

Every Grand Prix is a new data point in rating the drivers. So when a driver has an unprecedented dip in form, it will of course affect my overall view of him. The longer it goes on, the more bearing it has on his overall rating.

Yeah. Button in 2012 is a good example. His rating after 2011 and specifically winning in Australia 2012 was so high he was almost considered as a top driver.

But then his mid-2012 form was so bad... I mean really-really bad. That most people stopped considering him anywhere near the top drivers.

Button's fluctuations in that time period must have been one of the biggest I have seen in a very competitive driver.

I mostly agree but in fairness (and at extreme risk of turning this into an LH topic) at Singapore '11 the team were unable to refuel his car so he never got in a second run in a qualifying session where it looked like he'd be fighting for pole in Q3. In India last year he was running 1s behind Rosberg before the final stops in which Nico was able to leapfrog Massa whereas Hamilton was mired behind both Ricciardo and the Ferrari, which didn't help tyre wear in the longer final stint. He didn't have the pace of NR there, but how the cards fell with strategy also played a part in the final positions.

Thanks for the insight. I have forgotten some of the finer details. As always, circumstances influence the final result.

 

I found an interesting argument in another forum. F1 seems to be the only sport where dips in form are not tolerate for top drivers while in other sports they are part of the development of the series. I know for example in ski jumping you have jumpers that are good for one or two season, and than never come back, there are other examples like Ahonen, that were always good, but also had their off season, where he was fighting for spots at the end. Somehow you  need to beat everyone in F1, under every circumstances to regarded as best in F1. The sports and the gaps are so tight in the moment, that one variable that is not going your way you, could you put on the back foot. I don’t believe in the myth that Senna or Schumacher would dominate today, I can’t see them doing this under saving tires, engines, and controlled from the garage pattern. That’s one reason I believe Hamilton can’t dominate Rosberg, there is not much room for it today, one small problem for him and Rosberg will get him. Alonso stepped in the car in 2007 and was beaten by a Rookie. We have all the talk about hampering your legacy when you get beaten by your team mate. This is negative approach, while in under sports your talking about the great seasons or the great moments of a athlete, to name him as all-time great. Isn’t this concept dated having this tight competition in mind? Is Vettel not four time champion when he is losing against Dan or Lewis an all-time great if he loses against Rosberg this seasons? I see this argument running out of steam in the next years - a tight competition with a lot of talents could well mean a performance swings from one year to another. But all we as fans stick this not dynamic tier concept, that doesn’t change since 2008 (Alonso and Lewis the best, while Vettel joined in). Has this negative talk/approach all to do with finding the best of the best? 

 

I think the problem with F1 is the financial side, driver has to bring results or money for the team, it is not enough to be a top-3 driver of his home country to compete in the sport let alone in a top team. Driver performances change and if they don't recover fast enough to a good level, they will be out and never get the chance again. Maybe it would be interesting if a struggling driver was out for 5 years and then was given the chance to come back strong again. More driver tests and evaluations needed?

Edited by Mauseri, 24 June 2014 - 19:50.

Yeah. Button in 2012 is a good example. His rating after 2011 and specifically winning in Australia 2012 was so high he was almost considered as a top driver.

 

But then his mid-2012 form was so bad... I mean really-really bad. That most people stopped considering him anywhere near the top drivers.

 

Button's fluctuations in that time period must have been one of the biggest I have seen in a very competitive driver.

You're correct, but those fluctuations, or at least how it's seen by people, is vastly overrated. A driver cannot change that much on his own. From Germany onward in 2012 he had a very solid season in which he often troubled Hamilton. But no one will remember that because of what happened in the previous races.

Edited by Lights, 24 June 2014 - 20:11.

I think the problem with F1 is the financial side, driver has to bring results or money for the team, it is not enough to be a top-3 driver of his home country to compete in the sport let alone in a top team. Driver performances change and if they don't recover fast enough to a good level, they will be out and never get the chance again. Maybe it would be interesting if a struggling driver was out for 5 years and then was given the chance to come back strong again. More driver tests and evaluations needed?

Yea I think this is an interesting point. Since in F1 there are only 22 competitors, once you drop out, it will be a long journey to get back as you need the right machinery to showcase your skills and even then teams may not consider your talent adequate for F1 levels (i.e you shine in DTM, but it is not a convincing argument for an F1 shot). Less competitors/bigger need for finances means less opportunities to showcase your talent.

Meantime, if we talk about team sports, you may have 22 sportsmen in one team/club, while there are thousands of professional players around the world. As long as you remain in a competitive team somewhere, you can showcase your skills with an excellent season. Some sportsman can be out for 2 years with injuries, but if they re-gain their form, they actually can come back to the top again. For a young and upcoming racing driver it is incredibly difficult to come back once they have been out for a year and hence dropped out of any kind of junior driver programme or whatever they were in.

It could be that in F1/motorsports it is harder to come back after a serious injury, which has seen you out of the sport for a year, unless you were already an established star.

With his earlier post, sopa reminded me that during the partnership of Hamilton and Button I created an overview of their performance per weekend rated on a 5 point scale. Additionally, an added trendline gives a rough idea of how they were perceived at that time based on the last few races. You can see how both drivers had a 'dip' which they both escaped after some time. Does this influence the way we perceive them currently? It's hard to say, but on certain message boards some things will never be forgotten. Already in this thread some people are talking about the slump of a season Hamilton had in 2011, and Button's 2012 season is often mentioned as a complete write off as if he didn't perform the whole season. While when one looks at the details it often just seems to be a case of selective memory.

One has to say though, Button would not have been the upper dot as often as he has been without Lewis' rotten luck.

Just a small note, I think there should be some kind of distinction between dip in form and not being skilled enough.

Kimi 2014 and Button 2012 setup struggles suggest they are lacking something in area of adaptation. I wouldn't say the both dropped the ball in those periods. They probably had no idea what was going on with the car.

Lewis last two qualifying would be better example of form dip - more a matter of lost focus than pace, but still.